High School Exit Exams Face Backlash

[Zebo]

He did'nt specify. But he held up one test from the 50s and read the questions and one from today and it was a joke how far the standards have fallen in the effort "inclusion" and not making the students work or feel bad.. It waas RUSH though, coould have been contrived like many of his "facts". But I do know east indian kids definity have a huge leg up on thier american compitition when they come over here to go to college because thier public schools are intense..

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl



The test also had a intergration problem filling a cone with water. Again 8th grade, I wish Ida seen the HS test:Q:Q:Q

I haven't seen the test, so I'm curious if you could dig up the test(or at least the question). I would think most 8th grade students would know the volume formula for a cone, which would probably be what the question is based on, since you'd need to know Calculus to do integration(and I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching every 8th grader Calc in the 50's)

I think I have seen that test that carb is talking about. My guess is it is urban legend. Far to many difficult questions for 8th grade.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
He did'nt specify. But he held up one test from the 50s and read the questions and one from today and it was a joke how far the standards have fallen in the effort "inclusion" and not making the students work or feel bad.. It waas RUSH though, coould have been contrived like many of his "facts". But I do know east indian kids definity have a huge leg up on thier american compitition when they come over here to go to college because thier public schools are intense..

That only the best of their best get to come to school over here. That tilts the scale a little bit as well.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I found some examples of Ohio's "Exit Exam" but it isn't actual tests - more like "preparation guides" but they do have exaples in them.

Written Test
Math Test
Reading Test

Be aware that there may also be 9th Grade Test exaples present too.

----------
Now after looking through all 3, I don't see how Ohio's tests couldn't be passed by someone who actually passed thier way through High school and accumulated enough core credits to graduate. However - this is only Ohio's test, I have yet to find other state's test examples.

After reading this post you will have 60 minutes to complete this test. When 60 mins has passed I will say "pencils down" and at that time you should stop taking the test, put your pencils down, and wait for me to collect your answer sheets.


You may begin....





Now

CkG

Edit - If you go here - http://www.americanbookcompany.com/index.htm you can find quite a few "testing guides" for Exit/graduation tests.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
He did'nt specify. But he held up one test from the 50s and read the questions and one from today and it was a joke how far the standards have fallen in the effort "inclusion" and not making the students work or feel bad.. It waas RUSH though, coould have been contrived like many of his "facts". But I do know east indian kids definity have a huge leg up on thier american compitition when they come over here to go to college because thier public schools are intense..

That only the best of their best get to come to school over here. That tilts the scale a little bit as well.

I bet Rush took the test from 1950's Andover Academy eigth grade (~30K year right now) and used one from inner city public school detriot to prove his point.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

8 minutes left



CkG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Woops you guys lucked out and got a few extra minutes...

Pencils down!



Has anyone read through the exams and formulated some thoughts as to their "fairness"?

CkG

 

[cpumaster]

I actually agree with CkG on this one :Q
I rather have my kids learn the test materials than not learning anything at all like the current system... just show up and pass, that's not real school, that's kindergarten...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: cpumaster
I actually agree with CkG on this one :Q

That's a slippery slope my "friend"

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

How does one get advanced to the point of being incapable of passing an exit exam. I mean really now, required information to pass the exam (both parts) is taught in junior high and freshman high. It would seem to me that if one can't pass the test they should never have been able to get beyond freshman and the point would be moot. Or am I missing something?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: HJD1
How does one get advanced to the point of being incapable of passing an exit exam. I mean really now, required information to pass the exam (both parts) is taught in junior high and freshman high. It would seem to me that if one can't pass the test they should never have been able to get beyond freshman and the point would be moot. Or am I missing something?

Nope HJD1 - that would be logical and therefore can't be used in assessing this situation.

Accountability? In America? Nah....we're FREE!!!!

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: HJD1
How does one get advanced to the point of being incapable of passing an exit exam. I mean really now, required information to pass the exam (both parts) is taught in junior high and freshman high. It would seem to me that if one can't pass the test they should never have been able to get beyond freshman and the point would be moot. Or am I missing something?

Nope HJD1 - that would be logical and therefore can't be used in assessing this situation.

Accountability? In America? Nah....we're FREE!!!!

CkG

Free.... that's it... the college's are afraid to lose the players who's intellect is a few points above rock so they can be molded into millionaire ballplayers needing of course agents so they want rid of the testing process which would preclude giving scholarships and getting the best of the best next season... now why didn't I think of that.... free... Your right I/me/you. it is all about free..

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: friedpie
The same stink was being made in Florida not too long ago. Apparently, a lot of those latin (and black) kids can't pass the English proficiency tests. They can take the test an unlimited number of times until they pass, yet something like 17% of them still fail!

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was not an English-language proficiency test, it was the same type of general knowledge test that this thread is about. So why punish the kids if they know the material, but they can't read English well enough or fast enough to pass the test? Chances are it is not because they don't WANT to learn English, it's because the school system doesn't do a very good job with limited english proficiency students. Or perhaps it is because they are recent immigrants who have not yet had time to learn English. Do you want to make them attend high school until they're into their 20s?

Besides, you can get by just fine in areas of many cities without being able to speak English. Why does it bother so many Americans when immigrants are slow to learn English? Does it affect us somehow?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

American teenagers need to stop blaming the tests and take responsibility for themselves. If they don't know the material, they don't deserve a piece of paper that says they know the material. "I suck at math, why should I care?" Because it's a basic skill you ought to have! I can see these tests as putting a huge burder on students in urban areas with poor school systems. But the solution is not to get rid of the tests, it's to improve those schools. If the reason is underfunding, then increase funding. It's unfortunate that public schools are primarily paid for by local taxes. That means the rich get the best schools so they get the best education and they get into the best colleges and get even more rich, while the poor go to poor schools, get a terrible education, and end up working at McPlastic's. I know some rich white kid schools that are WAY overfunded.

Life is unfair.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: friedpie
The same stink was being made in Florida not too long ago. Apparently, a lot of those latin (and black) kids can't pass the English proficiency tests. They can take the test an unlimited number of times until they pass, yet something like 17% of them still fail!

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was not an English-language proficiency test, it was the same type of general knowledge test that this thread is about. So why punish the kids if they know the material, but they can't read English well enough or fast enough to pass the test? Chances are it is not because they don't WANT to learn English, it's because the school system doesn't do a very good job with limited english proficiency students. Or perhaps it is because they are recent immigrants who have not yet had time to learn English. Do you want to make them attend high school until they're into their 20s?

Besides, you can get by just fine in areas of many cities without being able to speak English. Why does it bother so many Americans when immigrants are slow to learn English? Does it affect us somehow?

The exit exams were (iirc) created by Employers, teachers, and admins to create a base level of proficiency so as to say "you are hirable" or is atleast my interpretation.
Now I think you missed the point about the reading and writing tests - they are to show proficiency in the English language. If an immigrant shows up to school when he/she is 18 but doesn't know a lick of English - should we just give him/her a diploma? Why shouldn't they be held to the same standards we hold to the rest of the students who went through 12 years of the system? If they "have not had enough time to learn english" - they should wait to graduate until they do.
Accountability, Responsibility, and Results.

Now to address the language portion from a different angle. There was a thread recently about this but it pertains greatly to this thread too. Making English the national language.

I think I've shared some of my views on why I think English should be the official language, but Education is by far the biggest reason. If you don't "force" someone to learn the 1 language we have used as our main vehicle for teaching, then how can you set the criteria for which one can achieve a diploma? Do we make tests for each language? No, because we teach understanding of the ENGLISH(american ) language in our schools. You'd have to create "Spanish" schools, "French" schools and "put your language here" schools, to effectively and fairly set the criteria for a high school diploma and that would lead to segregation.

I could go on and on all day about our American school system but I'll save that for a different day(or atleast a different thread), but the point remains - to EARN a diploma you MUST be able to account for your 12(+) years of learning. We can't just assume since you've been there 12 years, that you actually learned something - studies have shown that kids don't always learn what they need to learn in only 12 years, whether by their own choosing or not. If we can't have a standard to which we hold all our students to - then how can a "diploma" be worth anything other than an attendance certificate?

CkG

 

[waggy]

My wife WAS a teacher. She taught 4th-6th grades. She quit because of a few things one of them was the standardized test they are forced to do. So much depends on the outcome of these test that they spend 2 weeks before the test preparing for it. Such as learning how to ?guess? on the questions and what is covered. The test themselves can take up to two weeks. So that?s 4 weeks gone!

Some of the older teachers have said how they teach has changed over the years because of the test. They have to spend more time teaching what is on the test then stuff they feel the students actually need!

I remember back when I went to school taking the Iowa test and another one (cant remember the name) and we would spend at least 2-3 weeks on them. It seemed like we spent time on the test and not much else.


Needless to say I am against the test. I don?t feel they show what a person knows. I have known students that are really smart but have trouble with the standardized test.

 

[mugs]

I think I've shared some of my views on why I think English should be the official language, but Education is by far the biggest reason. If you don't "force" someone to learn the 1 language we have used as our main vehicle for teaching, then how can you set the criteria for which one can achieve a diploma? Do we make tests for each language? No, because we teach understanding of the ENGLISH(american ) language in our schools. You'd have to create "Spanish" schools, "French" schools and "put your language here" schools, to effectively and fairly set the criteria for a high school diploma and that would lead to segregation.

I was referring mainly to the immigrant students who have no been here long enough to learn English yet. If they know the material as well as an English-speaking person, they deserve their diploma. Speaking English is not a requirement for living in this country. You can get by just fine speaking Spanish in some areas. If they go to a job interview at an English-speaking establishment, I think the employer will realize pretty quickly that they don't speak English. A high school diploma shouldn't be used as proof that you can speak English. Especially since all it would prove is that you can speak the bastardized version of English that so many teenagers speak these days.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

I think I've shared some of my views on why I think English should be the official language, but Education is by far the biggest reason. If you don't "force" someone to learn the 1 language we have used as our main vehicle for teaching, then how can you set the criteria for which one can achieve a diploma? Do we make tests for each language? No, because we teach understanding of the ENGLISH(american ) language in our schools. You'd have to create "Spanish" schools, "French" schools and "put your language here" schools, to effectively and fairly set the criteria for a high school diploma and that would lead to segregation.

I was referring mainly to the immigrant students who have no been here long enough to learn English yet. If they know the material as well as an English-speaking person, they deserve their diploma. Speaking English is not a requirement for living in this country. You can get by just fine speaking Spanish in some areas. If they go to a job interview at an English-speaking establishment, I think the employer will realize pretty quickly that they don't speak English. A high school diploma shouldn't be used as proof that you can speak English. Especially since all it would prove is that you can speak the bastardized version of English that so many teenagers speak these days.

Exactly, but American school systems use English as their language to teach/learn. So, logic dictates that if you do not know/learn English, you can't EARN an American high school diploma. If one doesn't know English well, then how could they truely know the subject matter - when the subject matter is English? They may know their own language well and can read/write proficiently using it, but our American school system uses and teaches the English language.

CkG

 

[mugs]

Exactly, but American school systems use English as their language to teach/learn. So, logic dictates that if you do not know/learn English, you can't EARN an American high school diploma. If one doesn't know English well, then how could they truely know the subject matter - when the subject matter is English? They may know their own language well and can read/write proficiently using it, but our American school system uses and teaches the English language.

CkG

Except in places with high immigrant populations, where classes are often offered in students' first language while they are in the process of learning English through ESL classes. If it was an ideal world, they would all be able to learn English before they come here or quickly after they arrive, but English is a hard language. It takes time. And resources.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: waggy
My wife WAS a teacher. She taught 4th-6th grades. She quit because of a few things one of them was the standardized test they are forced to do. So much depends on the outcome of these test that they spend 2 weeks before the test preparing for it. Such as learning how to ?guess? on the questions and what is covered. The test themselves can take up to two weeks. So that?s 4 weeks gone!

Some of the older teachers have said how they teach has changed over the years because of the test. They have to spend more time teaching what is on the test then stuff they feel the students actually need!

I remember back when I went to school taking the Iowa test and another one (cant remember the name) and we would spend at least 2-3 weeks on them. It seemed like we spent time on the test and not much else.


Needless to say I am against the test. I don?t feel they show what a person knows. I have known students that are really smart but have trouble with the standardized test.

As pointed out before, My mother was a teacher(alot of subjects - keyboarding(elementary), accounting(HS), and other Business Ed. classes). She left the system because she couldn't force accountability on her students. If a student failed or was failing her class, the kid's parent would come in a raise hell. My mother was called "The Bitch" by alot of students because she was one of the few who actually failed kids who didn't pass. But she didn't teach any "core" classes at the high school level - so these kids who failed had actually CHOSEN to take her class. Was she overly tough on students? No - and I remember nights when kids would drop by my house to ask her questions if they really did need help and wanted to learn - she made plenty of time for her students.

I'm sorry your wife felt that she had to "teach the test" but that is where one of the real problems lie. Don't teach the test - let the test determine what the kid has already learned. If the test is overly hard and not in line with what students at that level should have been taught -then by all means - change the test - don't get rid of it. How does one truely know what a kid has retained if they aren't tested at regular intervals? Teachers(bless their idealistic hearts) can and do make mistakes and miss signs of a kid struggling to learn as well as missing signs of "genius".

Standardized testing isn't the problem here - it is the lack of standardized teaching. I switched school systems (North-west Iowa to Middle of Wisconsin) when I was in second grade. Now in 2nd grade in iowa we were learning mathmatics at a much higher level than those in wisconsin, I had to wait until the end of 3rd grade for their system to catch up. But spelling was the opposite - in Iowa we weren't taught the same level of spelling that my classmates in wisconsin were, I had to spend time to catch up with their system. I still to this day have some issues with spelling(like alot of people here do ) and I look back to that move as a possible cause of that. We need a more comprehensive system to brainwa....I mean teach our kids, one that has both student and teacher accountability built in.

Fix the system - don't water it down.

CkG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Exactly, but American school systems use English as their language to teach/learn. So, logic dictates that if you do not know/learn English, you can't EARN an American high school diploma. If one doesn't know English well, then how could they truely know the subject matter - when the subject matter is English? They may know their own language well and can read/write proficiently using it, but our American school system uses and teaches the English language.

CkG

Except in places with high immigrant populations, where classes are often offered in students' first language while they are in the process of learning English through ESL classes. If it was an ideal world, they would all be able to learn English before they come here or quickly after they arrive, but English is a hard language. It takes time. And resources.

So because it is "hard" and "expensive" we should just let kids get something others have EARNED?

I will admit that immigration education issues are tough to deal with, but we need to have a base criteria set to EARN a diploma. I don't think these tests are out of line with what graduating kids should have learned, and infact the numbers show the vast majority of students pass the test within the first 2 times.<-I'll look for my source

CkG

 

[mugs]

I will admit that immigration education issues are tough to deal with, but we need to have a base criteria set to EARN a diploma. I don't think these tests are out of line with what graduating kids should have learned, and infact the numbers show the vast majority of students pass the test within the first 2 times.<-I'll look for my source

CkG

You're equating a diploma with a document that says you know how to speak English. I'm saying that if they know the same material in a different language, they shouldn't be punished because they didn't learn it in English.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

I will admit that immigration education issues are tough to deal with, but we need to have a base criteria set to EARN a diploma. I don't think these tests are out of line with what graduating kids should have learned, and infact the numbers show the vast majority of students pass the test within the first 2 times.<-I'll look for my source

CkG

You're equating a diploma with a document that says you know how to speak English. I'm saying that if they know the same material in a different language, they shouldn't be punished because they didn't learn it in English.

Last time i checked English was required material. Are you saying we should allow failure of one core subject per individual and still allow them to graduate?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

I will admit that immigration education issues are tough to deal with, but we need to have a base criteria set to EARN a diploma. I don't think these tests are out of line with what graduating kids should have learned, and infact the numbers show the vast majority of students pass the test within the first 2 times.<-I'll look for my source

CkG

You're equating a diploma with a document that says you know how to speak English. I'm saying that if they know the same material in a different language, they shouldn't be punished because they didn't learn it in English.

They aren't being punished They just don't recieve an American diploma.

In the 3 cases per year that this would actually happen I could maybe see letting them slide by, but then if we let them slide by then why not let everyone who says they know the stuff, slide by - because we don't have a test for us to tell if they really know it or not.

Wether you like it or not mugsywwiii - the American school system teaches and learns in English, so yes one could infer that an American high school diploma does equate to knowing how to speak/read/write in English. - but again that isn't truely the case now is it? We have people with diploma's that can't read or write (in any language) - how does that happen? It happens because there is little accountabilty enforced in our school systems. Testing is the only way to make sure that people do actually learn what they are taught.
Now when an immigrant comes over - how do we know they have the equivilant knowledge - without testing? If yes, so it'd be alright to test immigrants see their level of learning, but not the rest of the kids?

CkG

 

[mugs]

Wether you like it or not mugsywwiii - the American school system teaches and learns in English, so yes one could infer that an American high school diploma does equate to knowing how to speak/read/write in English.

Like I said, there are many schools where the same material is taught in multiple languages.