High School Exit Exams Face Backlash

[tnitsuj]

From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

 

[LeadMagnet]

I live in Massachusetts where the exams are used and the current administration is trying to keep them in place while the schools are trying to get rid of them or make them worthless by students getting their diploma even if they don't pass.

The teacher?s union already successfully shot down a plan that would test the teachers in their area of expertise.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

People need to quit complaining. If you did not learn the required material, you dont need a diploma.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

People need to quit complaining. If you did not learn the required material, you dont need a diploma.

The problem with these one-time, life or death, graduate or don't graduate tests is that eventually the schools will start teaching less and less material, and more and more "test taking skills." The kids will be taught how to take the test, and as for information, they'll learn only the bare minimum they need to pass the exam. That's not a good thing no matter which way you look at it.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

People need to quit complaining. If you did not learn the required material, you dont need a diploma.

The problem with these one-time, life or death, graduate or don't graduate tests is that eventually the schools will start teaching less and less material, and more and more "test taking skills." The kids will be taught how to take the test, and as for information, they'll learn only the bare minimum they need to pass the exam. That's not a good thing no matter which way you look at it.

So how do you think they should end the social promotion that occurs in schools? Without testing - the kids don't have to learn ANYTHING - for example - if they can play sports
Don't you find it absurd that people with high school diplomas can't read and write?

How does one finish highschool with a 3.0GPA and not pass a math test? I now ask, which part is the problem? the test or the "inflated" grades she must have recieved.
CkG

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

People need to quit complaining. If you did not learn the required material, you dont need a diploma.

The problem with these one-time, life or death, graduate or don't graduate tests is that eventually the schools will start teaching less and less material, and more and more "test taking skills." The kids will be taught how to take the test, and as for information, they'll learn only the bare minimum they need to pass the exam. That's not a good thing no matter which way you look at it.

Actually they are not one time. I dont know of a single school that only gives a student one shot to pass. And if you cant pass the material on an exit exam, it seems to me, the material was not learned.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Buahahaha!
-------------------
?It?s a flawed exam, that?s the problem.?
? JILL DOUGLASS
Mother of student
--------------------

Or maybe it's a flawed school system I wish people would quit blaming the tool that shows the competency instead the now obvious lack of teaching competency. Fix the system - don't blame the test.

CkG

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Unfortunately, in MA, I know of situations where students who know the material choked on the exam. Ther needs to be some mechanism for retesting.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Unfortunately, in MA, I know of situations where students who know the material choked on the exam. Ther needs to be some mechanism for retesting.

MA does have retesting.

Sueing to stop the tests
<snip>
"Students have five chances to pass, beginning in their sophomore year."
</snip>

I'm sorry but if you can't pass it after 5 times but the rest of the kids can(within 5 tries) - you need more education. The ones who passed the test took the same classes you did(at some point).

Instead of dumbing down the tests - why don't we raise the level of ACTUAL TEACHING.

My mother was a teacher - she left that profession due to many reasons but she points to the apathy present in students as one of the major reasons. "..they don't care if they learn or not - they know that if they just show up enough to not get kicked out, they will most likely be passed on to the next grade."- my Mom.

CkG

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Unfortunately, in MA, I know of situations where students who know the material choked on the exam. There needs to be some mechanism for retesting.

MA does have retesting.

Sueing to stop the tests
<snip>
"Students have five chances to pass, beginning in their sophomore year."
</snip>

I'm sorry but if you can't pass it after 5 times but the rest of the kids can(within 5 tries) - you need more education. The ones who passed the test took the same classes you did(at some point).

Instead of dumbing down the tests - why don't we raise the level of ACTUAL TEACHING.

My mother was a teacher - she left that profession due to many reasons but she points to the apathy present in students as one of the major reasons. "..they don't care if they learn or not - they know that if they just show up enough to not get kicked out, they will most likely be passed on to the next grade."- my Mom.

CkG

Thanks for pointing that out. I know that what I said was reported in the local rags a long time ago. They must have fixed it in the interim. BTW, I am not going to knock the teachers too hard, because there is a lot of parents who feel they have no obligation to have the kids do homework, etc.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Unfortunately, in MA, I know of situations where students who know the material choked on the exam. There needs to be some mechanism for retesting.

MA does have retesting.

Sueing to stop the tests
<snip>
"Students have five chances to pass, beginning in their sophomore year."
</snip>

I'm sorry but if you can't pass it after 5 times but the rest of the kids can(within 5 tries) - you need more education. The ones who passed the test took the same classes you did(at some point).

Instead of dumbing down the tests - why don't we raise the level of ACTUAL TEACHING.

My mother was a teacher - she left that profession due to many reasons but she points to the apathy present in students as one of the major reasons. "..they don't care if they learn or not - they know that if they just show up enough to not get kicked out, they will most likely be passed on to the next grade."- my Mom.

CkG

Thanks for pointing that out. I know that what I said was reported in the local rags a long time ago. They must have fixed it in the interim. BTW, I am not going to knock the teachers too hard, because there is a lot of parents who feel they have no obligation to have the kids do homework, etc.

And yet there is pressure from the admin to pass kids that need to failed. The first step in fixig the schools failing those that are not performing.

 

[zephyrprime]

The problem with these one-time, life or death, graduate or don't graduate tests is that eventually the schools will start teaching less and less material, and more and more "test taking skills." The kids will be taught how to take the test, and as for information, they'll learn only the bare minimum they need to pass the exam.

The problem is, they currently learn a bare minumum that is not even enough to pass the test! Look, I graduated from high school not so long ago and I was the first class in my district that they started experimenting on with testing. The tests are really really easy. That so many kids can't pass it is a disgrace to out education system and to the kids themselves.

People are afraid that kids are will be missing out on a great humanist education of eclectic topics because teachers will only have time to teach to the test. This is a false fear. Most students aren't getting anything like a wide ranging eclectic education. People are afraid that teachers will start teaching only a bare minimum but they fail to realize that teachers are ALREADY teaching a bare minimum and this minimum is not enough for the kids to pass the tests. Teaching to the test would actually be an increase in topic breadth AND depth for most kids. For those few kids that were having a great humanist education, they won't have any troubles with the test (because they're easy)

Now concerning test taking skills: there really aren't that many. I've read plenty of test taking advice when studying for the SAT. There's not really that much. "do the ones you know first". "pace yourself". "if you don't know the answer, don't guess the most obvious answer". There are a few more but all such pieces of advice are just little tricks that can be taught in 1 hr. The most important skill is keeping your cool but that can't be taught.

 

[dpm]

?I?ve cried so much about this test,? said Collins, who learned yesterday that she had failed the exam for at least the fifth time. ?I?m not a stupid kid. . . . It is just that in my opinion, the stuff on the test doesn?t equate to anything that I?ve learned in school.?

Um, hello? She is a stupid kid if she's failed a test five times! If it really didn't "equate to anything that [she'd] learned in school" then maybe after the fourth time she might have noticed, and done something about it?

 

[Zebo]

Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

 

[friedpie]

The same stink was being made in Florida not too long ago. Apparently, a lot of those latin (and black) kids can't pass the English proficiency tests. They can take the test an unlimited number of times until they pass, yet something like 17% of them still fail!

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: friedpie
The same stink was being made in Florida not too long ago. Apparently, a lot of those latin (and black) kids can't pass the English proficiency tests. They can take the test an unlimited number of times until they pass, yet something like 17% of them still fail!

Really, why should anybody be expected to pass an English test? It's not like it's the national language or anything. Why not have a Spanish, French, or Ebonics test instead?

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

Realize however that since then, 50 years of history has passed. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the depression/inflation eras of the 70s and 80s, etc. Information such as the Spanish American war has been depreciated for the most part, with text books covering less and less of it, in order to fit in more history as time goes on. All things considered, the Spanish-American war is a minor skirmish, compared to the other wars listed, which is partly why less of it is being coverd. In the current education system(and even the system of thr 50's), kids will always know less about ancient history, in favor of recent events.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

Realize however that since then, 50 years of history has passed. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the depression/inflation eras of the 70s and 80s, etc. Information such as the Spanish American war has been depreciated for the most part, with text books covering less and less of it, in order to fit in more history as time goes on. All things considered, the Spanish-American war is a minor skirmish, compared to the other wars listed, which is partly why less of it is being coverd. In the current education system(and even the system of thr 50's), kids will always know less about ancient history, in favor of recent events.

I am sure most 8 graders would be hard pressed to answer this question:

Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Vietnam War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

Realize however that since then, 50 years of history has passed. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the depression/inflation eras of the 70s and 80s, etc. Information such as the Spanish American war has been depreciated for the most part, with text books covering less and less of it, in order to fit in more history as time goes on. All things considered, the Spanish-American war is a minor skirmish, compared to the other wars listed, which is partly why less of it is being coverd. In the current education system(and even the system of thr 50's), kids will always know less about ancient history, in favor of recent events.

It was the difficulty of the question and the book learning needed virge, not the subject matter. Ask the same about any event you want to a high school kid today and I doubt you get a well reasoned satisfatory answer.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

Realize however that since then, 50 years of history has passed. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the depression/inflation eras of the 70s and 80s, etc. Information such as the Spanish American war has been depreciated for the most part, with text books covering less and less of it, in order to fit in more history as time goes on. All things considered, the Spanish-American war is a minor skirmish, compared to the other wars listed, which is partly why less of it is being coverd. In the current education system(and even the system of thr 50's), kids will always know less about ancient history, in favor of recent events.

I am sure most 8 graders would be hard pressed to answer this question:

Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Vietnam War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history

Actually, in the district I went to, yes. They divided up the cirriculum based on time; in the 8th grade, you only get up to the late 1800's. 9th grade picks up about 1890 or so, and goes up until the end of WWII, followed by post WWII to now in the 11th, although if you take the "honor" road instead, it's world history 9th, and AP US 11th. It's from the AP US history book I make my comparison about content length. I don't know how well a "normal" 8th grader would do on Vietnam, although I can tell you that our books had far more information on Vietnam than the Spanish-American War.

PS Carbonyl, I disagree a bit with you there. If the question was given about a war in the time period covered by 8th grade history, and it wasn't a section that's been reduced(say, the Civil War or 1812, vs. Tripoli or something else of that ilk), I believe the kids could have handled it

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Only if thay make it hard with substance.

Saw an 8th grade graduation test from the 50's one time on RUShs TV show. Had 3 sections, history and politics, math and science, arts and letters.

First question read as follows:

"Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Spanish American War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history."

Most Eighth graders don't even know when the spanish american war was today. There were about 20 questions on this test and I could'nt have gotten a 30% I feel.


This is eighth grade too.

Realize however that since then, 50 years of history has passed. Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the depression/inflation eras of the 70s and 80s, etc. Information such as the Spanish American war has been depreciated for the most part, with text books covering less and less of it, in order to fit in more history as time goes on. All things considered, the Spanish-American war is a minor skirmish, compared to the other wars listed, which is partly why less of it is being coverd. In the current education system(and even the system of thr 50's), kids will always know less about ancient history, in favor of recent events.

I am sure most 8 graders would be hard pressed to answer this question:

Choose two prominient political or military fiqures from the Vietnam War and describe thier history, role in the war and importance to history

Actually, in the district I went to, yes. They divided up the cirriculum based on time; in the 8th grade, you only get up to the late 1800's. 9th grade picks up about 1890 or so, and goes up until the end of WWII, followed by post WWII to now in the 11th, although if you take the "honor" road instead, it's world history 9th, and AP US 11th. It's from the AP US history book I make my comparison about content length. I don't know how well a "normal" 8th grader would do on Vietnam, although I can tell you that our books had far more information on Vietnam than the Spanish-American War.

The test also had a intergration problem filling a cone with water. Again 8th grade, I wish Ida seen the HS test:Q:Q:Q

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl



The test also had a intergration problem filling a cone with water. Again 8th grade, I wish Ida seen the HS test:Q:Q:Q

I haven't seen the test, so I'm curious if you could dig up the test(or at least the question). I would think most 8th grade students would know the volume formula for a cone, which would probably be what the question is based on, since you'd need to know Calculus to do integration(and I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching every 8th grader Calc in the 50's)

 

[Zebo]

I am looking. I said earlier after graduation from college I could'nt have gotten a 30% on this thing. It was hard as hell and every answer needed essay format, no scan tron or true false work.

I remember it was a Vermont test, in the 50's, for 8th grade graduation, shown on Rush Limbaugh TV show in about 1994-95. Perhaps you can google better than I.

 

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
I am looking. I said earlier after graduation from college I could'nt have gotten a 30% on this thing. It was hard as hell and every answer needed essay format, no scan tron or true false work.

I remember it was a Vermont test, in the 50's, for 8th grade graduation, shown on Rush Limbaugh TV show in about 1994-95. Perhaps you can google better than I.

Are you sure this was a standard thing, and not a test at a private school?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
I am looking. I said earlier after graduation from college I could'nt have gotten a 30% on this thing. It was hard as hell and every answer needed essay format, no scan tron or true false work.

I remember it was a Vermont test, in the 50's, for 8th grade graduation, shown on Rush Limbaugh TV show in about 1994-95. Perhaps you can google better than I.

Are you sure this was a standard thing, and not a test at a private school?

Yes, that seems like a far too advanced test for non-Asian 8th graders.