high performance automatics better for high performance cars?

[brainhulk]

I used to always be in the manual for performance cars period camp, and I still see alot of hate for automatics. However looking at the new automatic on the upcoming ZO6 got me thinking...

1. For expensive cars like the zo6 - if you money shift at redline, it's goodbye engine. I think if you are going to be driving the car hard, there will always be the risk of the rare but expensive money shift. Im thinking driving something that expensive, I would be more comfortable driving hard with an automatic.

2. For cars that you will be using competitively. I hate to say it, but everybody knows now they shift way faster than humans can. Not sure about drivetrain losses or reliabilty of the new zo6 automatic, but when you are trying to shave off those tenths of a second, I think some of it can be found in the shifting.

If I ever bought another car that fell into those 2 categories, I would probably seriously consider one equipped with a high performance automatic.

 

[_Rick_]

For competition you want a full sequential box.
A high performance road car is pretty pointless - on the road you don't realistically need more power than what a base 911 gives you, to have all the fun you could ever want. I'd want a manual in sports/fun road cars.

More horse power is really only needed on big limos, that need that effortless overtaking capability, despite their prodigious weight. There a good auto is a no-brainer, because you're not driving anymore, but going places.


If you go to track days, then a good single or double clutch robotized auto would make a decent compromise between full sequential and manual, and give you a bit of a competitive feeling. If there's a decent double clutch in the Z06 I'd probably take it, and left-foot-brake all the way home. But it's not a car, that I'd really look at. It's nicer to drive a car that you can actually drive on the performance limit for more than a split second on public roads.

 

[phucheneh]

IMO, automatics have two fundamental drawbacks that really can never be changed: The truly 'wearable' parts (stuff with friction linings) are inside the transmission. The second thing, which is just an extension of the first, is that the friction material is obviously going to wear away over time, which means changes in the clutch packs themselves, changes in the fluid, and potential for problems in the valve body.

That's ignoring possible electrical problems...but I think mentioning such is becoming highly irrelevant because of the growing popularity of sequential, dual-clutch manuals.

In theory a manual can be built with a huge amount of toughness, with less potential for random 'fluke' failures than with autos. And the only parts that typically fail are housed outside of the transmission.

But the only people who can really speak accurately about this stuff are going to be engineers of the transmissions. We can know exactly how the stuff works, but 'better' is harder for us to analyze unless we pick out specific points to argue...shift times, parasitic loss, amount of gears (and ease of squeezing them inside of a certain size constraint), ect. Axial loading is also something to think about...I'm not quite sure how it works in complex planetary setups. But it's a universal detractor from manuals...

...unless you have a manual trans with spur cut gears. A.k.a. that thing that you tend to find in very high-powered race cars. A manual design with spur/straight cut gears and automated clutch probably is and always will be the 'best' design for performance...but no one can listen to that every day. I think it sounds glorious, but even I admit I would get sick of hearing it, even in a track-only car.

 

[MagickMan]

Give me a 2500lb 2-seater with 400hp and 5 on the floor and I'm in heaven.

 

[DaTT]

Money shift?

 

[Zenmervolt]

What do you mean when you say "automatic"?

If you mean a traditional torque-converter automatic, then no. This is NOT better for competition use because the shifts tend to be slower and the torque converter itself saps power.

If you mean the new sequential boxes with computer-controlled clutches like the DSG or PDK or BMW's SMG, then yes, those are better than a traditional H-pattern manual.

ZV

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Depends entirely on the use of the car, and driver preference.

I just like rowing the gears. I'm not chasing seconds on a track so I really don't care about the performance difference.

 

[Jumpem]

I think it is the future. They are generally the higher performing option now.

 

[Viper GTS]

At this point the compelling reasons to buy manuals are upfront cost (not really a big factor in performance cars) and driver engagement.

It's pretty hard to deny the superiority of the modern sequential transmission, but I (and some others) will happily choose the slower option for the sake of being a part of the process.

Viper GTS

 

[15fgdean64]

gimme a manual anyday of the week.

 

[JackBurton]

I think it is the future. They are generally the higher performing option now.

And the more boring option as well.

 

[MagickMan]

Depends entirely on the use of the car, and driver preference.

I just like rowing the gears. I'm not chasing seconds on a track so I really don't care about the performance difference.

Yep, I don't care if it's technically slower, I want a real manual.

 

[kitatech]

At this point the compelling reasons to buy manuals are upfront cost (not really a big factor in performance cars) and driver engagement.

It's pretty hard to deny the superiority of the modern sequential transmission, but I (and some others) will happily choose the slower option for the sake of being a part of the process.

Viper GTS

YES!
.......and what they say...
MagickMan
JackBurton
15fgdean64
...and being consistent...I prefer manual focusing lenses on my cameras as well...

 

[NutBucket]

Nothing can improve the process of driving a Camry!

 

[DrPizza]

Money shift?

Accidentally downshifting too far. E.g., going 65 mph, shifting into 4th, but oops, accidentally shifting into 2nd. "Money" because that's what comes out of your pocket when you do that.

 

[smackababy]

Give me a 2500lb 2-seater with 400hp and 5 on the floor and I'm in heaven.

I thought you already had one of those. >_>

Well, I suppose the 12C is a bit heavier, but it gets 200+ more HP and a 7 speed IIRC.

 

[Ventanni]

Don't some manuals have some lockouts for that? I used to drive a 1995 Mustang GT with a Tremec 3550 5-speed manual in it, and you couldn't go into 1st gear if you were driving more than like 10-15mph. I think that was more to protect going from 2nd-to-3rd though.

 

[_Rick_]

I thought you already had one of those. >_>

Well, I suppose the 12C is a bit heavier, but it gets 200+ more HP and a 7 speed IIRC.

The V6 Lotus Exige S is 50HP short, but also 200lbs below the weight criterion. I'd say that's a bit closer to the concept, than the lardy McLaren. Especially since you can probably get those 50hp extra with some mild fettling of the supercharger and exhaust.

 

[Squeetard]

Drag racer for 30 years, also built some cheater engines for Stock Cars.

Automatics are way better in drag cars. Faster and more consistent. The manuals have their own class and very few show up.

Stock cars all use Manuals. Manuals rob less horsepower and Stock cars rarely shift.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Don't some manuals have some lockouts for that? I used to drive a 1995 Mustang GT with a Tremec 3550 5-speed manual in it, and you couldn't go into 1st gear if you were driving more than like 10-15mph. I think that was more to protect going from 2nd-to-3rd though.

There's no mechanical lock-out on that transmission for first gear.

What you were experiencing is probably the normal function of the synchros, which make it difficult, but not impossible, to shift into a gear if the speed variance between the input and output shafts of the transmission is too great. The synchros incorporate a "blocker ring" that prevents engagement of a gear until the cone clutches have done their job of bringing the input shaft up to (or down to) speed to match the output shaft. If there's a large variance between the input and output shaft speed, it can take a long time (several seconds) for the cone clutches to bring the input shaft to the proper speed and thereby allow shifting.

This can sometimes feel as though a gear is "locked out" because the lever doesn't easily go into that gear. However, with enough force the gear will still engage (albeit with some grinding).

ZV

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Manuals are more fun.

 

[Kaido]

Manuals are more fun.

It's interesting reading the reactions to people who are driving high-performance automatics (not by choice, but because manuals aren't offered). For example, I keep tabs on the Tesla forums and there's a thread talking about how people don't miss their previous stick-shift cars...Ferraris, Porsches, etc. that are just sitting unloved in their garages because the automatic Teslas are more fun to drive.

Maybe having a super-powerful automatic car makes driving a different experience, but I just snagged a new Kia and made sure to get a standard transmission :thumbsup:

 

[NutBucket]

Considering the torque curve of an electric motor what's the point of any transmission? Apples to Oranges. But I will gladly relieve anyone of the "burden" of maintaining an unused Porsche or Ferrari

 

[ManyBeers]

Accidentally downshifting too far. E.g., going 65 mph, shifting into 4th, but oops, accidentally shifting into 2nd. "Money" because that's what comes out of your pocket when you do that.

No he is talking about upshifting near redline and missing the shift.

 

[smackababy]

The V6 Lotus Exige S is 50HP short, but also 200lbs below the weight criterion. I'd say that's a bit closer to the concept, than the lardy McLaren. Especially since you can probably get those 50hp extra with some mild fettling of the supercharger and exhaust.

I was simply remarking that he already had a beauty of a car.

And the Exige is so incredibly small. There is a guy who lives near me with 3 or 4 Lotuses (is that the correct plural? It looks strange) and one of them is an Exige S. I am sure that car is a blast (because it is basically a 250 HP go-kart), but I can't imagine actually driving anywhere in it. Even as a small guy, it looks like a tight fit.