high performance automatics better for high performance cars?

[Vdubchaos]

I don't care about 1/10th of a second, what I care about is the connection to the car.

NOTHING but Manual transmission will do that.

When it comes to motorsports, that's one thing I hate about F1 and many other sports. No manual = robots and completely taking out human skill/luck/mistake out of the equation.

Back in the 80s, there was no ABS, Auto etc. It was pure machine and human.

The way it should be.

Nowdays it's simply money/technology race. Bleh

 

[DaTT]

No he is talking about upshifting near redline and missing the shift.

If that's the case....what cars don't have rev limiters?

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Nowdays it's simply money/technology race. Bleh

True. So why keep the manual in the modern supercar (using that loosely here) when it was clearly not designed for it? I drive a manual right now, but the fact is most of these DCTs are so good I'd get one in a new performance car. You're already so disconnected by ABS, traction control, electronic steering, and god knows what else, that I think leaving the manual in these days isn't exactly genuine either. Hell, a lot of performance manuals will rev-match downshifts for you these days. I totally respect people still getting a manual in these cars, esp if it's their only vehicle, I'm just saying I wouldn't. There's other cars out there if you want a pure mechanical experience.

 

[brainhulk]

Shifting into 2nd instead of of 4th mechanically over-revs the engine. Rev limiter has no ability to prevent that.

I noticed driving at the track my shifter moves around slightly. Maybe that slight shift in position is enough to throw your memory muscle position off where 4th should be, especially when driving under stress. Im always aware of it and thus dont bang through gears as fast as I want to

 

[smackababy]

I don't care about 1/10th of a second, what I care about is the connection to the car.

NOTHING but Manual transmission will do that.

When it comes to motorsports, that's one thing I hate about F1 and many other sports. No manual = robots and completely taking out human skill/luck/mistake out of the equation.

Back in the 80s, there was no ABS, Auto etc. It was pure machine and human.

The way it should be.

Nowdays it's simply money/technology race. Bleh

ABS and Traction Control has been banned in F1 for damn near 20 years...

But, you're another of those "ABS takes away my ability to crash my car" people. I don't know why I even respond.

Edit: Forgot TC was unbanned in the early 2000s because they couldn't police it and has since been rebanned.

 

[Elganja]

I'll take a DCT any day of the week ... but I'm a bit biased

 

[npaladin-2000]

I"ll take a fast-shifting performance automatic, which is NOT the same as the slushbox out of a Toyota or Hyundai. Performance automatics minimize or completely drop the use of the torque converter, and shift faster than a manual. They'd be one step below a dual-clutch sequential.

Mazda's automatic preserves the torque converter for use below 10 MPH to smooth out low-speed operation, and operates in lock-up mode the rest of the time. Great transmission.

 

[Puddle Jumper]

Faster or not manuals are more fun and that matters more to me then shaving half a second off a lap.

 

[Zenmervolt]

It's interesting reading the reactions to people who are driving high-performance automatics (not by choice, but because manuals aren't offered). For example, I keep tabs on the Tesla forums and there's a thread talking about how people don't miss their previous stick-shift cars...Ferraris, Porsches, etc. that are just sitting unloved in their garages because the automatic Teslas are more fun to drive.

Maybe having a super-powerful automatic car makes driving a different experience, but I just snagged a new Kia and made sure to get a standard transmission :thumbsup:

Teslas are not automatic.

They simply have only one gear. There's no shifting at all.

ZV

 

[michal1980]

I don't care about 1/10th of a second, what I care about is the connection to the car.

NOTHING but Manual transmission will do that.

When it comes to motorsports, that's one thing I hate about F1 and many other sports. No manual = robots and completely taking out human skill/luck/mistake out of the equation.

Back in the 80s, there was no ABS, Auto etc. It was pure machine and human.

The way it should be.

Nowdays it's simply money/technology race. Bleh

define pure machine?

I'm betting the cars in the 80's had technology not around in the 70's. or in the 40's which racing was more pure?

 

[npaladin-2000]

Teslas are not automatic.

They simply have only one gear. There's no shifting at all.

ZV

Sounds automatic to me.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I'll take a shifter and clutch over the best automatics. They're ALL boring. I've driven them in Maseratis and Ferraris when they were first released, in BMWs on the next generation and Porsches on all the latest models, the manual trans is more fun 10/10 times. If you want a "fun" car, buy a stick. If all you care about is performance (which means you're a professional racer?)... go for it. Even when you win races you'd be having more fun with the manual. On a Tesla, there's no reason to have a clutch and gears so I can understand why they don't want one. But comparing the fun factor of a Tesla to a Porsche? lol.

You lose more than half the interaction of your body when you use an automatic. Your left foot is not doing anything anymore. Your right hand is not doing anything anymore. You no longer need to listen to the engine. You're much less connected and IMO bored within minutes.

The last time I overreved a manual was 12 years ago when I was drag racing a lot and looking back it was my fault, I should've just slowed down on the shifting and I would've won that race. Now I just take my time shifting especially on downshifts. I'll still outshift just about any ricer because I almost never miss shifts since I take my time and I always see these idiots speed shifting and grinding gears and blowing up engines. Now that's slow. Just take your time!

If you realize how an H pattern works it's almost impossible to select the wrong gear. Return to center then straight up = 3rd. Return to center then straight down = 4th. Add left/right forces for the other gears.

Don't force it and shift too fast up or down and you'll never overrev. And if you have a good feel/fast reflexes you'll use the clutch or take it out of gear if you do accidentally select the wrong one.

If that's the case....what cars don't have rev limiters?

Rev limiters can't stop a car from mechanically overreving.

If you take a manual transmission car to 6000 RPMs in 4th gear, then shove it into 2nd gear, it'll hit 10,000 RPMs and bend some valves most likely. The rev limiter stops the spark or fuel at that RPM, but as soon as the clutch pedal is released, the engine and transmission couple together and force the engine to catch up to what it would be in 2nd gear. You can't overrev a rev limiter'd car by sticking it 1st gear for example and revving the crap out of it, but if you downshfit all bets are off.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Accidentally downshifting too far. E.g., going 65 mph, shifting into 4th, but oops, accidentally shifting into 2nd. "Money" because that's what comes out of your pocket when you do that.

that's not even possible in my 6 speed. R, 1, 2 and 3 are locked out at their respective speeds, no speed restrictions on 4, 5 and 6.

for enthusiastic driving, automatic is not an option. for everyday driving, the hassle of a manual is not an option.

 

[DaTT]

Rev limiters can't stop a car from mechanically overreving.

If you take a manual transmission car to 6000 RPMs in 4th gear, then shove it into 2nd gear, it'll hit 10,000 RPMs and bend some valves most likely. The rev limiter stops the spark or fuel at that RPM, but as soon as the clutch pedal is released, the engine and transmission couple together and force the engine to catch up to what it would be in 2nd gear. You can't overrev a rev limiter'd car by sticking it 1st gear for example and revving the crap out of it, but if you downshfit all bets are off.

You clearly didn't read the posts very carefully. We aren't talking downshifting.

 

[DaTT]

that's not even possible in my 6 speed. R, 1, 2 and 3 are locked out at their respective speeds, no speed restrictions on 4, 5 and 6.

for enthusiastic driving, automatic is not an option. for everyday driving, the hassle of a manual is not an option.

My daily is a manual.....zero hassles found.

 

[_Rick_]

I was simply remarking that he already had a beauty of a car.

And the Exige is so incredibly small. There is a guy who lives near me with 3 or 4 Lotuses (is that the correct plural? It looks strange) and one of them is an Exige S. I am sure that car is a blast (because it is basically a 250 HP go-kart), but I can't imagine actually driving anywhere in it. Even as a small guy, it looks like a tight fit.

The V6 Exige is actually quite a bit reworked. It's 10" longer and 2" wider too. This may have liberated a bit of room, though the roof looks just as low as ever )

 

[NutBucket]

Uh, the V6 Lotus is the Evora. Completely different beast.

 

[_Rick_]

Uh, the V6 Lotus is the Evora. Completely different beast.

They've stuck the V6 from the Evora into something called the Exige V6 S last year. Which is most likely only very loosely related to the old supercharched I4 Exige, and slightly closer in development to the Evora. But it is a true 2 seater, and not a 2+2, and it's called an Exige. And it's currently one of the most powerful production cars that can handle and weigh in under 2.5k lbs.

Here's a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Wk9Ero0Ow

Here's a pic:

 

[NutBucket]

Just something else we can't (easily) buy in the US. Not like I could afford it anyway....

 

[pauldun170]

For a high performance car, sure an automatic can be offer better performance numbers by taking the human element out of transfering the power to the ground and reducing shift times.
Perhaps one day, you will be able to download track data your car and you will be able to have the car apply gas for you as well as using predictive braking with stability control so the driver can focus completely on getting the best time by just hitting 3 buttons. Straight, left and right. Hopefully with a bluetooth gamepad or something.
That will show em..


For the daily grind, rush hour traffic or just running errands. I need a manual. I hate the zoning out that occurs in automatics (slushers and dcts). In a manual I always have something to do. Driving manual is also easier on the brakes and I get a hell of a lot more life out them than on a comparable automatic.

For twisties, I'll take a manual any day. All the little things that effect the balance of a car come into play and shifting yourself plays a part. Its challenging. Its rewarding.
On a DCT, its not as bad but you still lose some of the little things you get with a manual.

If I was chasing lap times I'd probably go for any tech that would eek out a faster time so if a DCT got me a better time than I'd pick that car. Since all my driving is street, I could give 2 shits about any performance advantage a DCT offers.

Having said that, driving a $150,000-$500,000 sports car is fun. Especially when you don't have to pay for maintaining it or insuring it. At least until other people start showing up with newer fast cars than the one you are driving. Then it goes from fun to sad face.

 

[Kaido]

True. So why keep the manual in the modern supercar (using that loosely here) when it was clearly not designed for it? I drive a manual right now, but the fact is most of these DCTs are so good I'd get one in a new performance car. You're already so disconnected by ABS, traction control, electronic steering, and god knows what else, that I think leaving the manual in these days isn't exactly genuine either. Hell, a lot of performance manuals will rev-match downshifts for you these days. I totally respect people still getting a manual in these cars, esp if it's their only vehicle, I'm just saying I wouldn't. There's other cars out there if you want a pure mechanical experience.

I drove a buddy's 90's-era Civic the other day (no power steering) and I am very, very glad that I do not have to drive it every day. Yay for my Kia's electric-assisted steering :thumbsup:

 

[Kaido]

Teslas are not automatic.

They simply have only one gear. There's no shifting at all.

ZV

For discussion's sake. Automatic 5-speed, automatic 6-speed, automatic 9-speed, CVT, DCT, 1-gear, it's all the same to me: automatic, not manual

 

[Zenmervolt]

Sounds automatic to me.

??

If there's no shifting at all, there can't be automatic shifting, which is what distinguishes an automatic transmission. Plus, without a torque converter the fixed gear Tesla transmission has a direct connection to the electric motor which means you get manual-transmission levels of engine braking as well.

that's not even possible in my 6 speed. R, 1, 2 and 3 are locked out at their respective speeds, no speed restrictions on 4, 5 and 6.

for enthusiastic driving, automatic is not an option. for everyday driving, the hassle of a manual is not an option.

As explained in a response to another poster earlier, what you're experiencing is not a true mechanical "lock out" but rather simply the normal functioning of the blocker rings (or "baulk rings") for each gear's synchronizer. A true "lock out" is something in the linkage. I guarantee that if you applied sufficient force to the gear lever, you would be able to override the baulk rings and engage those lower gears.

ZV

 

[tweakmonkey]

You clearly didn't read the posts very carefully. We aren't talking downshifting.

You wrote:

If that's the case....what cars don't have rev limiters?

in response to:

No he is talking about upshifting near redline and missing the shift.

I read (past tense) that last quote as 'missing the shift and going into another lower gear' not revving in neutral or with the clutch pressed in. That obviously won't overrev due to the limiter. I see you know what you mean on this thread, I think others don't. I just like to dispel myths about rev limiters wherever possible because people ask me every day at work People often ask me why their rev limiter doesn't protect them against the money shifts.

 

[Zenmervolt]

For discussion's sake. Automatic 5-speed, automatic 6-speed, automatic 9-speed, CVT, DCT, 1-gear, it's all the same to me: automatic, not manual

While the number of gears in a particular type of transmission are, as you correctly point out, largely irrelevant, the type of transmission absolutely is.

There is a world of difference between a traditional torque converter automatic with distinct gear ratios and a torque converter based CVT. And the gulf between anything with a torque converter and a DCT or single-speed transmission is even larger.

Torque converter automatics introduce inefficiency because the fluid coupling creates losses unless the lockup clutch is engaged, and even with driver control of shifting they cannot compete with the shift speeds of DCT gearboxes. The problem with automatics on a road course is that they do not always make the right shifting decisions. Sometimes it's faster to hold a lower or higher gear (e.g. hold the lower gear when a slight over-rev at the end of a straight is mechanically OK and you'd just have to shift down immediately for a corner or hold a higher gear when the corner is just on the edge of one gear and you'd just have to immediately upshift as soon as you started accelerating out) and even the best automatic shift programs don't get that right as consistently as a driver will.

Torque converter automatics also substantially reduce available engine braking, partially because the design typically uses sprag clutches and partially because a torque converter is only efficient in one direction of power transfer. This takes away one of the driver's options for controlling the vehicle.

That's why, historically, torque converter automatics have not been used in road course racing. They have been popular at dragstrips, however, because they are consistent, because very specific designs of torque converter can aid the car's launch, and because they allow the throttle to be wide open during a shift, which allows turbocharged cars to remain on full boost instead of having boost falloff between shifts.

The Tesla's single-speed transmission (really just a reduction drive) has none of those drawbacks. It is directly attached to the motor, so there's no torque converter slop, it has no additional ratios so there's no possible way for the internal logic to choose the wrong gear, and it preserves engine braking. The feel is infinitely different from a torque converter automatic. The Tesla transmission is really simply like having a traditional manual, but only ever using 2nd gear (which, since the electric motor can "rev" to 14,000 RPM, still gives you a top speed in excess of 120 mph).

And then there are DCTs. Which retain all the goodness of a traditional manual (driver's complete control over gear selection, no forced up/down shifts, no torque converter slop, and fully retained engine braking) while also providing the option of a computer-controlled mode, which must be specifically chosen by the driver, where a computer manages the shifting. When in manual mode, there's not a lick of difference in the amount of control the driver has over the car compared to a traditional manual.

There are big differences between how these transmissions all work and to lump them all together generically as "automatics" is like saying that sports cars are pointless because a Dodge Grand Caravan "Sport" isn't very much fun to drive. The things you're lumping together just aren't even remotely the same.

ZV