Russ, are there any handgun related forums otu there? I've looked but there don't seem to be any decent sites aside from the manufacturer's. Thanks!
Jumpem,
About the best gun/hunting/target/etc. related site I've found out there is Guntalk over on the Shooter's website. You'll probably drown in the information available there. I hope this link comes out right. Guntalk
They are in the process of setting up their new BBS layout, so the forum you're interested in may not be up and running yet.
EDIT: It appears that most of the new forums are up and running, so you should be able to find what you want.
About the best gun/hunting/target/etc. related site I've found out there is Guntalk over on the Shooter's website. You'll probably drown in the information available there. I hope this link comes out right. Guntalk
They are in the process of setting up their new BBS layout, so the forum you're interested in may not be up and running yet.
EDIT: It appears that most of the new forums are up and running, so you should be able to find what you want.
Coming in late to this thread but here's my 2 cents:
I began shooting when I was about seven years old (Dad and Grandfather trained me on bolt-action rifles and shotguns first). At age 9, my father gave me my first rifle and shotgun. At age ten, my Dad trained me on my first pistol (.22LR "six-shooter" single-action) first with targets, then quick-draw from a western holster.
During eight years in the Military, I had the opportunity to train with both the Colt .45 and the Beretta 9mm. I have over the years owned various Beretta, S&W, Glock, Sig et al. makes of pistols (revolver and semi-auto) in various calibers. I have settled on the 9mm as the best self-defense weapon for various reasons. In target shooting, I am ore acurate with a properly tuned .45, but in self-defense/combat shooting, I find that I can deliver from holster to first-round on target better with the 9mm. I also find it easier to return to target more consistently with the 9mm. And, in my opinion, combat situations are most often decided with first-shot kills, and the ability to finish a target with a rapid safety tap or two.
Now my performance with the 9mm is qualified however by the fact that I have made it a point to TRAIN myself on a specific weapon, regularly, and in many situations (you NEVER get to make optimal shots when it counts.... something is always "wrong".... racing heart, extreme noise, low-light, multiple targets, targets returning fire, etc...) You MUST train under the circumstances that you may be called upon to perform in.
The weapon you choose must also FIT you.... For instance, I have relatively small hands, thus a Glock with a 15 round clip is NOT a natural fit in my hand. I HAVE become proficient with one, but a S&W or Sig tuned, and with custom grips, radically increased my time to target and percentage of first-round take-downs.
Ammunition should also FIT.... I agree with Russ, all self-defense weapons should be loaded with hollow-points (and the weapon you choose to feed them to should be able to eat them all day without a single mis-feed). I use a custom load, designed for maximum expansion balanced with a higher probability that the round will not over-penetrate. In close quarters, it's much preferred to leave the round in the target rather than putting it through a wall (or bystander) after passing through tthe intended target.
Finally, TRAIN.... have I said this enough times yet? TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN.... You must know EVERYTHING about the weapon you carry/use. You should be able to disassemble and assemble the weapon properly, efficiently, quickly, and BLINDFOLDED. Be able to function check the weapon without thought. Be able to clear malfunctions as a matter of course, and in the dark. The weapon should be a natural extension of your body when drawn/fired. Learn, Know, and Live safety....
Never treat your weapon with less respect than it deserves. It's not a toy, a novelty, a show-n-tell piece, or anything else. It's a weapon.... a tool designed for ONE purpose... to kill, period. Don't advertise that you have it, don't show it off.
Never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to use it. And if you HAVE to use it, use it well. Don't shoot to wound..... ever. You are never that good. If you have allowed yourself to get in a position where it is necessary to fire your weapon, you are out of options. Kill the target, without hesitation, without passion, without remorse. Question and emotion should have already been dealt with BEFORE you pick the weapon up the first time.
Wow.... didn't mean to be so long-winded, but as my handle suggests... I am Opinionated.
I began shooting when I was about seven years old (Dad and Grandfather trained me on bolt-action rifles and shotguns first). At age 9, my father gave me my first rifle and shotgun. At age ten, my Dad trained me on my first pistol (.22LR "six-shooter" single-action) first with targets, then quick-draw from a western holster.
During eight years in the Military, I had the opportunity to train with both the Colt .45 and the Beretta 9mm. I have over the years owned various Beretta, S&W, Glock, Sig et al. makes of pistols (revolver and semi-auto) in various calibers. I have settled on the 9mm as the best self-defense weapon for various reasons. In target shooting, I am ore acurate with a properly tuned .45, but in self-defense/combat shooting, I find that I can deliver from holster to first-round on target better with the 9mm. I also find it easier to return to target more consistently with the 9mm. And, in my opinion, combat situations are most often decided with first-shot kills, and the ability to finish a target with a rapid safety tap or two.
Now my performance with the 9mm is qualified however by the fact that I have made it a point to TRAIN myself on a specific weapon, regularly, and in many situations (you NEVER get to make optimal shots when it counts.... something is always "wrong".... racing heart, extreme noise, low-light, multiple targets, targets returning fire, etc...) You MUST train under the circumstances that you may be called upon to perform in.
The weapon you choose must also FIT you.... For instance, I have relatively small hands, thus a Glock with a 15 round clip is NOT a natural fit in my hand. I HAVE become proficient with one, but a S&W or Sig tuned, and with custom grips, radically increased my time to target and percentage of first-round take-downs.
Ammunition should also FIT.... I agree with Russ, all self-defense weapons should be loaded with hollow-points (and the weapon you choose to feed them to should be able to eat them all day without a single mis-feed). I use a custom load, designed for maximum expansion balanced with a higher probability that the round will not over-penetrate. In close quarters, it's much preferred to leave the round in the target rather than putting it through a wall (or bystander) after passing through tthe intended target.
Finally, TRAIN.... have I said this enough times yet? TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN.... You must know EVERYTHING about the weapon you carry/use. You should be able to disassemble and assemble the weapon properly, efficiently, quickly, and BLINDFOLDED. Be able to function check the weapon without thought. Be able to clear malfunctions as a matter of course, and in the dark. The weapon should be a natural extension of your body when drawn/fired. Learn, Know, and Live safety....
Never treat your weapon with less respect than it deserves. It's not a toy, a novelty, a show-n-tell piece, or anything else. It's a weapon.... a tool designed for ONE purpose... to kill, period. Don't advertise that you have it, don't show it off.
Never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to use it. And if you HAVE to use it, use it well. Don't shoot to wound..... ever. You are never that good. If you have allowed yourself to get in a position where it is necessary to fire your weapon, you are out of options. Kill the target, without hesitation, without passion, without remorse. Question and emotion should have already been dealt with BEFORE you pick the weapon up the first time.
Wow.... didn't mean to be so long-winded, but as my handle suggests... I am Opinionated.
Takes about 4-6 weeks here to get your permit. Give your 10 bucks to the sheriff's dept. and mail it plus your $15 contribution to the State police and wala. Indiana is one of the most relaxed state's when giving out permits.
eia430, i had one of those dirty harry monsters at one point. Nice S&W .44 mag with the 8+ inch barrel. Don't ask me why, maybe it was just nice and shiny the day i walked into the gun store. I ran through probably 3 or 4 boxes of shells before i decided my wrist could'nt take the beating anymore. Traded it in on a nice and more comfortable snub nose .357 S/W.
Russ, you keep talking up that beretta anymore and your gone to cost me alot more dough when i go out shopping this weekend!
How about this Sig...
eia430, i had one of those dirty harry monsters at one point. Nice S&W .44 mag with the 8+ inch barrel. Don't ask me why, maybe it was just nice and shiny the day i walked into the gun store. I ran through probably 3 or 4 boxes of shells before i decided my wrist could'nt take the beating anymore. Traded it in on a nice and more comfortable snub nose .357 S/W.
Russ, you keep talking up that beretta anymore and your gone to cost me alot more dough when i go out shopping this weekend!
How about this Sig...
Crumcake, so you were luered by the harryesque mystique of the .44mag?? I was going to get it for it's pure and simple reputation for "blow your head clean off" but thank God I rented and test fired it first. Damn what an impractical gun. Hope you are happier with your .357
I was going to get it for it's pure and simple reputation for "blow your head clean off" but thank God I rented and test fired it first. Damn what an impractical gun. Hope you are happier with your .357 Jumpem:
Cut 'n' paste from one of my posts in a different thread -
I heartily agree with the suggestion of a revolver for those who are just becoming familiar with firearms for either target shooting or for personal and/or home defense:
The absolute worst case defense scenario with a semi-auto pistol is a failure to fire or reload-related stoppage. The ability to clear the stoppage and return the firearm to service under stress is NOT INTUITIVE (!) without properly supervised instruction and extensive practice.
With a revolver, you simply pull the trigger again, which is both intuitive and reflexive.
I suggest whatever suits your price range that provides comfortable fit and/or concealability (for those considering legal CCW status). I further recommend .357 Magnum caliber, as you can readily and affordably shoot the .38 Special cartridge in any .357 revolver until you are proficiently using .357 ammo on a regular basis.
Cut 'n' paste from one of my posts in a different thread -
I heartily agree with the suggestion of a revolver for those who are just becoming familiar with firearms for either target shooting or for personal and/or home defense:
The absolute worst case defense scenario with a semi-auto pistol is a failure to fire or reload-related stoppage. The ability to clear the stoppage and return the firearm to service under stress is NOT INTUITIVE (!) without properly supervised instruction and extensive practice.
With a revolver, you simply pull the trigger again, which is both intuitive and reflexive.
I suggest whatever suits your price range that provides comfortable fit and/or concealability (for those considering legal CCW status). I further recommend .357 Magnum caliber, as you can readily and affordably shoot the .38 Special cartridge in any .357 revolver until you are proficiently using .357 ammo on a regular basis.
Jumpem, I'll throw my opinion in the ring for you too.
First and foremost, decide if you will actually use it if you have to. Do some real soul searching, can you actually take a life, even if yours is threatened? If the answer is anything but yes, dont get a gun, it wont serve it's purpose and may only give yourself a false sense of security.
Second, which goes with the above, know right now that a gun is not a magic wand that makes everybody fall to your will when you wield it. You dont just point a gun and then everything goes as planned.
Now if you are past those two. Get educated on how and when to handle and use a gun. When you pick a gun that will be a carry-gun, think about how you will carry it, for how long, and how you will conceal it. If you are a BIG guy, this really increases your options, so does living in a cold climate. As an example a guy weighing 95 pounds wearing shorts and a tank top in the 120 degree heat in AZ, has a pretty hard time concealing a desert eagle.
Try diff guns and calibers, find a gun you can shoot easily and accuratley. Dont give up accuracy for firepower or stopping power, that's a horrible trade off. A famous gun fight edict goes "you cant miss fast enough to win a gun battle".
Practice point or "instictive" shooting at less than 10 feet, this is a personal and debatable opinion. I believe that it is the most likely that when the gun is needed, it will be without warning and you will need it fast. There will be no time for anything resembling target shooting. The bad guy will be right there, less than 10 feet away, and probly within arms reach. I would say that anybody's chances of being robbed from 25 yards away are close to zero. That's why I never practiced at that range. If you think you can hit a person at close range without aiming and without practice, you should try it first. More than one target shooter snickered at my practice time only to find they couldnt put their first anywhere near a vital organ on a fullsize target at 7 feet after a fast draw and point-shoot.
Practice , practice, practice......
First and foremost, decide if you will actually use it if you have to. Do some real soul searching, can you actually take a life, even if yours is threatened? If the answer is anything but yes, dont get a gun, it wont serve it's purpose and may only give yourself a false sense of security.
Second, which goes with the above, know right now that a gun is not a magic wand that makes everybody fall to your will when you wield it. You dont just point a gun and then everything goes as planned.
Now if you are past those two. Get educated on how and when to handle and use a gun. When you pick a gun that will be a carry-gun, think about how you will carry it, for how long, and how you will conceal it. If you are a BIG guy, this really increases your options, so does living in a cold climate. As an example a guy weighing 95 pounds wearing shorts and a tank top in the 120 degree heat in AZ, has a pretty hard time concealing a desert eagle.
Try diff guns and calibers, find a gun you can shoot easily and accuratley. Dont give up accuracy for firepower or stopping power, that's a horrible trade off. A famous gun fight edict goes "you cant miss fast enough to win a gun battle".
Practice point or "instictive" shooting at less than 10 feet, this is a personal and debatable opinion. I believe that it is the most likely that when the gun is needed, it will be without warning and you will need it fast. There will be no time for anything resembling target shooting. The bad guy will be right there, less than 10 feet away, and probly within arms reach. I would say that anybody's chances of being robbed from 25 yards away are close to zero. That's why I never practiced at that range. If you think you can hit a person at close range without aiming and without practice, you should try it first. More than one target shooter snickered at my practice time only to find they couldnt put their first anywhere near a vital organ on a fullsize target at 7 feet after a fast draw and point-shoot.
Practice , practice, practice......
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
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Jumpem... some great postings from others on the boards, please take the advice on safety and training seriously. One thing that did come into my mind, hearing Russ speak of sheriffs and licensing procedures, is this thought...
Find out what sidearms your local/city/state troopers are issued, and give that weapon at least a look when considering other weapons. The reason for that is this: if you ever are involved in a shooting incident, one thing that is absolutely certain is that your actions will be reviewed by the local prosecutor, and potentially vulture lawyers representing the family of the dearly departed target in a civil suit against you. If you use a weapon that is substantially the same used by local law enforcement officers, it makes it difficult for lawyers to argue that you used an "unreasonably deadly weapon," as stupid as that sounds. To you and me, it shouldn't matter whether we used a .22LR or a .44 Magnum in your defense, but you won't be on your jury, and those who are sometimes are not known for using common sense to decide issues of guilt or innocence.
This shouldn't make your choice for you, but if you're on the borderline between a couple of equally good choices for you, it might help be A deciding factor, amongst others. For example, my personal preferrence of the Sig 229 in .40 caliber works well in my home state, where the state troopers carry the exact same model weapon (albeit in the .357 Sig chambering). But looking to what the local authorities consider "appropriate" for deadly force instruments might not be a bad plan, when you have a couple of differing choices which might work equally as well as one another.
Find out what sidearms your local/city/state troopers are issued, and give that weapon at least a look when considering other weapons. The reason for that is this: if you ever are involved in a shooting incident, one thing that is absolutely certain is that your actions will be reviewed by the local prosecutor, and potentially vulture lawyers representing the family of the dearly departed target in a civil suit against you. If you use a weapon that is substantially the same used by local law enforcement officers, it makes it difficult for lawyers to argue that you used an "unreasonably deadly weapon," as stupid as that sounds. To you and me, it shouldn't matter whether we used a .22LR or a .44 Magnum in your defense, but you won't be on your jury, and those who are sometimes are not known for using common sense to decide issues of guilt or innocence.
This shouldn't make your choice for you, but if you're on the borderline between a couple of equally good choices for you, it might help be A deciding factor, amongst others. For example, my personal preferrence of the Sig 229 in .40 caliber works well in my home state, where the state troopers carry the exact same model weapon (albeit in the .357 Sig chambering). But looking to what the local authorities consider "appropriate" for deadly force instruments might not be a bad plan, when you have a couple of differing choices which might work equally as well as one another.
<< Find out what sidearms your local/city/state troopers are issued >>
Beretta 92FS of course.
Actually, our locals have a choice between that and Glock. Most choose the Beretta.eia430,
Hey! I have a 44 Mag in my collection.
Taurus, 6 1/2" ported. Not a carry piece, of course, but damned fun at the range. I almost bought a Desert Eagle 50AE just to be able to say I had one, but my fiscal common sense got the better of me (that, and firing the thing was about like putting 1 oz slugs though my Mossberg one-handed).Opinionated,
Excellent post. Every gun owner and potential gun owner, should print it out and post it on their wall, along with MrChicken's and pretty much anything Timberwolf posts.
CrumCake,
No question, the Sig is an excellent, well-made weapon. But, in my own testing it had problems with the Corbon loads I like to use. It may have simply been the range piece I was using; I don't know. But, I do know that in over 5,000 rounds, I've never had a single malfunction of any kind with my Beretta. EVER. With any kind of ammo. EVER.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, I bet that's a fun gun.. so tell me, have you ever uttered those harryesque words before you shot it? "so you gotta ask yourself.... do ya feel lucky punk? well do ya?" I am not a gun collector, just a practical user. One hunting rifle (well rounded caliber) and one pistol (well rounded caliber) and I'm happy
I am not a gun collector, just a practical user. One hunting rifle (well rounded caliber) and one pistol (well rounded caliber) and I'm happy Caliber, stopping power, mag capacity, are all overrated. You must get something you can live with 24/7. Be ready to use it be aware of your situation,always.(no dope or booze) Take courses to teach you instinctive reaction(like thunder ranch)go to PPC, IPSC, IDPA shoots compete. Don't get ten guns learn to shoot the one you live with. Get out and practice, practice, practice.
Remember a gun is a big responsibility we don't need anymore bad press!
The USP is a Quality piece if you can afford it.make mine.45 acp
I got old eyes need big holes.
Remember a gun is a big responsibility we don't need anymore bad press!
The USP is a Quality piece if you can afford it.make mine.45 acp
I got old eyes need big holes.
Actually 762nato, my grandmother remarried acouple of years ago since my grandfather died. Anyways, my step-grandfather's son is the owner of Thunder Ranch! I think they will only train law enforcement officers though. Plus they are in Texas and I'm in NY. And yeah I am definitely looking at a H&K USP chambered in .45. Maybe with one of their laser aiming devices that attaches to the underside of the barrel in front of the trigger guard. I think a .45 will work, since if you use hollow-points forour carry load they are 2/3+ of an inch when they encouter an object. Russ, the Beretta is nice, but I like semi-polymer guns due to their lower weight. The all metal guns seem heavier to me, and take longer to line up. Maybe I'll carry a Desert Eagle .50AE, yeah right!
Save the money instead of buying that 50AE. When shooting your USP get a friend or enemy to smack you in the forehead with his palm while taking a flash picture of you.
Really I don't think you would have any night vision till the next day from the rounds I've seen go off in those and Ruger 454cas. They must be fast cause they look like rockets in the daytime.
Really I don't think you would have any night vision till the next day from the rounds I've seen go off in those and Ruger 454cas. They must be fast cause they look like rockets in the daytime.
I dropped in a local gun shop yesterday before work and this is what i found out.
A Beretta 92f is about 489.00 and up in blued. Beretta 96 was running 559.00 in nickel.
Sig, H&K were both running in the high 500's and all the way up to $649.00 for the usp 9 and usp 40 compact in stainless.
Glocks were running in the high $400.00 to mid $500.00 range in certain chambers.
Maybe i'll just get me on of those preban ar15's he's got for $2500.00 laying around. NOT!!
Gonna go back in today with a buddy so he can scope out some Sig's. He is hell bent on the sig's, he has a 9mm, but now wants a .45 sig. Were gonna go to my brothers on Monday for some target practice, so i'm gonna try out his Sig 9mm to see if like it or not.
And check this out, Indiana dumped the 7 day waiting period for people that don't have there permits yet. They make a phone call and if your clean you got what ever your heart wants in 30 minutes or less. Seems like the State of Indiana really wants us to pack heat easier than before.
A Beretta 92f is about 489.00 and up in blued. Beretta 96 was running 559.00 in nickel.
Sig, H&K were both running in the high 500's and all the way up to $649.00 for the usp 9 and usp 40 compact in stainless.
Glocks were running in the high $400.00 to mid $500.00 range in certain chambers.
Maybe i'll just get me on of those preban ar15's he's got for $2500.00 laying around.
NOT!!Gonna go back in today with a buddy so he can scope out some Sig's. He is hell bent on the sig's, he has a 9mm, but now wants a .45 sig. Were gonna go to my brothers on Monday for some target practice, so i'm gonna try out his Sig 9mm to see if like it or not.
And check this out, Indiana dumped the 7 day waiting period for people that don't have there permits yet. They make a phone call and if your clean you got what ever your heart wants in 30 minutes or less. Seems like the State of Indiana really wants us to pack heat easier than before.
Here's a good story about the old Army issue Colt 1911.
A friend in my Army Reserve unit who was a tanker (ie.-he drove M1A1's in the Army) had his standard issue 1911 in his holster. Well, the unit stopped and he jumped out of the driver's hatch to run into the woodline and take a leak. Unbeknownst to him, his weapon fell out right onto the tank trail. A tank or two passed by while he was in the woodline and as he crossed back to get back in his Abrams, he noticed his weapon pressed into the hard packed dirt on the tank trail. He dug the weapon out of the groud with his e-tool and cycled the slide a few times. He said that after being run over by two tanks, the slide was tightened up and just like new, unlike it was previously where the slide was loose and rattled. After that he called his issue sidearm the "Old Bastard". Now that's a hell of a weapon.
The Army issue sidearm in use currently is the M9 which is a Beretta 92F. That weapon can take a beating like no other also. I have seen some crazy $hit done to those things that just defy logic and they still keep on going. Amazing...
A friend in my Army Reserve unit who was a tanker (ie.-he drove M1A1's in the Army) had his standard issue 1911 in his holster. Well, the unit stopped and he jumped out of the driver's hatch to run into the woodline and take a leak. Unbeknownst to him, his weapon fell out right onto the tank trail. A tank or two passed by while he was in the woodline and as he crossed back to get back in his Abrams, he noticed his weapon pressed into the hard packed dirt on the tank trail. He dug the weapon out of the groud with his e-tool and cycled the slide a few times. He said that after being run over by two tanks, the slide was tightened up and just like new, unlike it was previously where the slide was loose and rattled. After that he called his issue sidearm the "Old Bastard". Now that's a hell of a weapon.
The Army issue sidearm in use currently is the M9 which is a Beretta 92F. That weapon can take a beating like no other also. I have seen some crazy $hit done to those things that just defy logic and they still keep on going. Amazing...
Rogue - We used to use our Browning Hi-Power's ejection ports as field-expedient bottle openers in the bars in El Sal....
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