I'm new to the handgun shooting world. Remember when you knew almost nothing about computers? That's how I am with hanguns. Anyway, can someone explain to me the primary differences between 9mm Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45ACP. I know that the diameters vary (obviously), but what else differentiates their performance. I want to get a carry semi-auto whenever I get my permit approved (it takes forever - literally - to get in NY). Real world differences would be appreciated. Also, any thoughts on H&K USP's or Sig P-series? Thanks alot for the continued help guys!
Hey Russ, and other handgun enthusiasts?
- Thread starter Jumpem
- Start date
Of those four, the .357 has the most stopping power.
The 40 has more power than the 9MM, but is not as accurate. The 9MM has a better one-shot stop ratio than the .45, and a much higher capacity. Now, I know a bunch of .45 enthusiasts are going to jump in and argue with that, claiming that the .45 is better than the 9MM, but all the studies prove otherwise.
H&K and Sig both produce fabulous firearms, but all you really need to know is Beretta 92FS.
Russ, NCNE
The 40 has more power than the 9MM, but is not as accurate. The 9MM has a better one-shot stop ratio than the .45, and a much higher capacity. Now, I know a bunch of .45 enthusiasts are going to jump in and argue with that, claiming that the .45 is better than the 9MM, but all the studies prove otherwise.
H&K and Sig both produce fabulous firearms, but all you really need to know is Beretta 92FS.
Russ, NCNE
I prefer a Taurus 9 mm simply because it is one of the only gums that has a lifetime guarentee.
9 MM because of the stopping power, more rounds available per clip, Relatively inexpensive because they are a popular gun, ammo also comes in a wide range of specs. very accurate, especially under 25 ft, which is the range at which most hundgun encounters are likely to occur within.
9 MM because of the stopping power, more rounds available per clip, Relatively inexpensive because they are a popular gun, ammo also comes in a wide range of specs. very accurate, especially under 25 ft, which is the range at which most hundgun encounters are likely to occur within.
Jump, you don't really give enough info about why you want to carry..
Given that you don't know about guns & live in NY, you have probably not shot much.
I would go with a .22rf semiauto. buy 10 bricks of ammo. (5 000 rds)
when you have finished the 10 bricks, go to a larger gun. control & accuracy is more important than ballistics. 15 misses with a 9mm is worth less than a couple of taps with the puny .22.
Given that you don't know about guns & live in NY, you have probably not shot much.
I would go with a .22rf semiauto. buy 10 bricks of ammo. (5 000 rds)
when you have finished the 10 bricks, go to a larger gun. control & accuracy is more important than ballistics. 15 misses with a 9mm is worth less than a couple of taps with the puny .22.
cxim
Good advice, On top of that, I would recommend that he also go to a NRA sponsored shooting safety course.
Good advice, On top of that, I would recommend that he also go to a NRA sponsored shooting safety course.
Russ: Thanks for the thoughts, I've never used a Beretta, but I'll look this weekend maybe. Why would a smaller caliber (.357) have more stopping power than a larger caliber (.45)?
Ulfwald: I'll check out a couple of Taurus' too; and the NRA safety course is a good idea.
Cxim: Just because I live in NY doesn't mean that I live in a large city. I live in rural north-west New York. I have shot numerous .22 rifles, probably at least 500 rounds. I know it's not 5,000 like you mentioned, but I do have rifle and shotgun experience. Handguns, on the other hand, I will definitely admit to being a poor shot. The only handguns that I have fired are my dad's old revolver and a friends Glock 26 9mm. Remember, that everyone had to start at one time. As for why I want to carry: self defense, hunting (small game and varmints), and target practice with my friends.
Ulfwald: I'll check out a couple of Taurus' too; and the NRA safety course is a good idea.
Cxim: Just because I live in NY doesn't mean that I live in a large city. I live in rural north-west New York. I have shot numerous .22 rifles, probably at least 500 rounds. I know it's not 5,000 like you mentioned, but I do have rifle and shotgun experience. Handguns, on the other hand, I will definitely admit to being a poor shot. The only handguns that I have fired are my dad's old revolver and a friends Glock 26 9mm. Remember, that everyone had to start at one time. As for why I want to carry: self defense, hunting (small game and varmints), and target practice with my friends.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
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Actually, the stopping power of a .45 round has a lot to do with the weapon involved. In actual collections of police shootings, the .45 with a 5" barrel actually demonstrates an almost statistically perfect record of stopping power (i.e. the first shot to body mass incapacitating the subject, and preventing further threat to the officer). The same studies show in actual shootings (generally the sample is required to be of sufficient size, generally over 100 or so incidents) that in order of stopping efficiency, of the most common caliber choices, are:
1) .45 in a 5" or larger barrel configuration, 99%+
2) .357 magnum, 96%
3) .40 caliber (+P rounds) 96%
4) .45 in 4" or shorter barrel, 94%
5) .357 Sig, 94%
6) .40 caliber (standard 185 gr. rounds) 92%
7) 9mm parabellum, 92%
8) 38 special, 85%
Notice that all the most common rounds are all above 90%, and 38 Special at 85%, so they all represent a reasonable self-defense choice. Between the various choices you mentioned, the variances in documented stopping power are not sufficient to make the decision for you. They all represent fine choices, with strengths and weaknesses particular to the caliber and ballistics, mostly in terms of muzzle velocity, recoil, muzzle flash, and penetration abilities.
Rather than looking at raw stopping power data, i would advise you to find a weapon that you feel comfortable with first, and decide on a caliber second. The choice of firearm itself, in that you are comfortable using it and carrying it, is much more important than the ballistics. The best performing sidearm in the world doesn't mean much if you can't stand shooting it, and cannot come to a high level of proficiency in its use.
Personally, my overwhelming personal choice is the Sig Sauer 229, in .40 caliber, with 135 grain Cor Bon rounds. But that might be an entirely inappropriate choice for you. Ditto Russ's recommendation for the model 92 Berreta. A lot of folks will swear by Glock products, or a Browning 9mm. Do your research, carefully handle and actually shoot each weapon, and come to a conclusion first on what brand and model feels best for you. If that choice doesn't fit the normal mold of what people tell you is a "good gun," then so be it. I have a friend that swears by an old .38 Super. That's what works for him. Likewise, you should get what works for you.
Then determine what caliber and ballistics for the weapon of your choice make the most sense for you. Certain calibers might make better sense for different reasons, because of the inherent differences in the ballistics. The .357 Sig generally has much better penetration than say the 9mm, all things else being equal. That might be a plus or a minus for you, depending on your needs. Again, assess what YOUR needs are, and choose appropriately.
And no matter what your choice, or what your experience level in dealing with firearms, take a firearms safety course with your new weapon in hand. That you've been shooting a M1911 or a 12 gauge all your life, does not mean that your bright shiny new Taurus or Glock or Sig or Berreta or Ruger or whatever you purchase will function the exact way. You have to get comfortable with the action, user requirements for accurate shooting (i.e. individual variances in sighting and alignment, etc.), and safe handling of your new weapon.
Enjoy, have fun in your shopping, and take responsibility for the unique demands placed upon an owner of a firearm. Best of luck to you.
1) .45 in a 5" or larger barrel configuration, 99%+
2) .357 magnum, 96%
3) .40 caliber (+P rounds) 96%
4) .45 in 4" or shorter barrel, 94%
5) .357 Sig, 94%
6) .40 caliber (standard 185 gr. rounds) 92%
7) 9mm parabellum, 92%
8) 38 special, 85%
Notice that all the most common rounds are all above 90%, and 38 Special at 85%, so they all represent a reasonable self-defense choice. Between the various choices you mentioned, the variances in documented stopping power are not sufficient to make the decision for you. They all represent fine choices, with strengths and weaknesses particular to the caliber and ballistics, mostly in terms of muzzle velocity, recoil, muzzle flash, and penetration abilities.
Rather than looking at raw stopping power data, i would advise you to find a weapon that you feel comfortable with first, and decide on a caliber second. The choice of firearm itself, in that you are comfortable using it and carrying it, is much more important than the ballistics. The best performing sidearm in the world doesn't mean much if you can't stand shooting it, and cannot come to a high level of proficiency in its use.
Personally, my overwhelming personal choice is the Sig Sauer 229, in .40 caliber, with 135 grain Cor Bon rounds. But that might be an entirely inappropriate choice for you. Ditto Russ's recommendation for the model 92 Berreta. A lot of folks will swear by Glock products, or a Browning 9mm. Do your research, carefully handle and actually shoot each weapon, and come to a conclusion first on what brand and model feels best for you. If that choice doesn't fit the normal mold of what people tell you is a "good gun," then so be it. I have a friend that swears by an old .38 Super. That's what works for him. Likewise, you should get what works for you.
Then determine what caliber and ballistics for the weapon of your choice make the most sense for you. Certain calibers might make better sense for different reasons, because of the inherent differences in the ballistics. The .357 Sig generally has much better penetration than say the 9mm, all things else being equal. That might be a plus or a minus for you, depending on your needs. Again, assess what YOUR needs are, and choose appropriately.
And no matter what your choice, or what your experience level in dealing with firearms, take a firearms safety course with your new weapon in hand. That you've been shooting a M1911 or a 12 gauge all your life, does not mean that your bright shiny new Taurus or Glock or Sig or Berreta or Ruger or whatever you purchase will function the exact way. You have to get comfortable with the action, user requirements for accurate shooting (i.e. individual variances in sighting and alignment, etc.), and safe handling of your new weapon.
Enjoy, have fun in your shopping, and take responsibility for the unique demands placed upon an owner of a firearm. Best of luck to you.
I always like those machine guns the German soldiers had in those WW2 movies. Seemed much better than the US rifle.
Even those plastic German army men had those guns.
Even those plastic German army men had those guns.
<< Why would a smaller caliber (.357) have more stopping power than a larger caliber (.45)? >>
Size is not all that matters. Muzzle energy and velocity are, on balance, more important. The .357 generates more energy than the .45 ACP.
Russ, NCNE
A lot of threads like these include "find whats best for you" type comments.
How? Where can I "try out" handguns?
Poughkeepsie NY, 12601 if it matters
bart
How? Where can I "try out" handguns?
Poughkeepsie NY, 12601 if it matters
bart
<< The .357 Sig generally has much better penetration than say the 9mm, all things else being equal. >>
This is one of the key reasons (beyond capacity) that I prefer the 9MM for defense. I want the round to stop in the target and not pass through creating the potential for harm to an innocent. It is also why a defense weapon should always be loaded with hollow points.
Russ, NCNE
Hey BuddhaBart, where exactly is PoughKeepsie? I live in Canandaigua, it's about 30 miles south-est of Rochester. I know that my local gun dealer (creeksidegunshop.com) will let you test fire most weapons if you are sincerely interested in buying one. Unfortunately, I am going to be waiting for my permit for a while.:disgust:
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
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Bart, a lot of gun distributors have on-premises a shooting range. Generally, they will have "for rent" guns available to go on-range with, and get a feel for the shooting action of a particular weapon. The rental fee might vary (generally i've seen about $10/hr or thereabouts), and you can buy ammo for the weapon at the same time, to get a feel for various ballistics loadings in the same caliber.
This isn't the ideal method, since the rental weapons are rarely in tip-top shape, but it should help you cut down the list pretty quickly for weapons which, by feel or action, are obviously not going to represent a good fit for you. Once you've narrowed down the field to a reasonable number of candidates, most gun shops will let you use a new or at least a newer weapon of the sort you are potentially interested in purchasing, in sort of a "test drive," in order to help close the sale.
This isn't the ideal method, since the rental weapons are rarely in tip-top shape, but it should help you cut down the list pretty quickly for weapons which, by feel or action, are obviously not going to represent a good fit for you. Once you've narrowed down the field to a reasonable number of candidates, most gun shops will let you use a new or at least a newer weapon of the sort you are potentially interested in purchasing, in sort of a "test drive," in order to help close the sale.
Jumpem, Everyone's got their OPINION about what the best round to use is and bottom line is what is best for you. I'll tell you why I chose .45 and you can add my opinions to your knowledge base and come up with your own preference. I intended to go into IPSC matches so the .45 presented the best choice as far as availability of ammo, parts, customization etc for me. Why not the 9mm, I read quite a few studies before I bought my pistol and I read about the "wonder 9nine's" when every sort of police agency adopted them because of their high capacity. Then occoured a backlash, I read that a lot of police officers were not happy with the stopping power of the 9mm and were returning to the .45, and the new .40 s&w, .357 etc. I decided then and there that 9mm was out. Why not .357 simple... recovery between follow up shots with a .357 takes too long. The recoil of a .45 is a very gentle nudge with a very gentle rise, it's very quick and easy to be on bead again. The .357 seemed to give a short sharp jolt rather than a longer gentle nudge and it was not so easy to re-bead for rapid accurate follow up shots. Why not .44 well I'm not dirty harry, besides if I thought the .357 took a long time to re-bead, the .44 took forever. The .45 gave me very good one shot stop numbers, has gentle recoil for quick on-bead recovery, ammo availability is unmatched, component availability is unmatched and the colt 1911 has had a very good reputation for dependability and longevity. Besides at 230grain the .45 round is twice the mass of a 9mm round. If you've ever seen an expanded 9mm hollowpoint it's about the same width as a .45 hollow point round non-expanded. An expanded .45 hollow point (CCI, the "flying ashtray" is a sight to behold.
Like every one else here, I suggest that you find the best fit for you, the best caliber and gun that fits your needs is what you should get.
is a sight to behold.Like every one else here, I suggest that you find the best fit for you, the best caliber and gun that fits your needs is what you should get.
Thanks guys, all of these replies have been quite helpful. Out of curiosity, since most semi-autos hold 7-10 rounds, more for you lucky pre-ban buyers, do any of you carry backup magazines? You normally shouldn't need more than ten rounds unless your visiting LA during a riot!? Is there any real reason that it takes a year+ to get a permit?
I own a 9mm S/W 15 round clip. Its a nice gun and would prefer to carrry it over a 357.
Both are good guns but 357's are pretty big guns to carry around in my option. Reguardless of which you use BOTH will hurt when hit. The Sigs are very accurate guns. My brother use to work on the police force and had a Glock and a Sig 9mm. If you were hunting Bear or animals I could see using a 357 or bigger gun. I Know my Shotguns and Rifles better the handguns. So I hope this helps.
Both are good guns but 357's are pretty big guns to carry around in my option. Reguardless of which you use BOTH will hurt when hit.
The Sigs are very accurate guns. My brother use to work on the police force and had a Glock and a Sig 9mm. If you were hunting Bear or animals I could see using a 357 or bigger gun. I Know my Shotguns and Rifles better the handguns. So I hope this helps.I have seven original PB 15 round magazines for my 92FS.
<< Is there any real reason that it takes a year+ to get a permit? >>
No, just politics. In my state, it's under 30 days, guaranteed by law.
Russ, NCNE
<< Is there any real reason that it takes a year+ to get a permit? >>
No, just politics. In my state, it's under 30 days, guaranteed by law.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, They outlawed 15 round clips here in Kentucky. Now you can only buy 10 round clips. Is that the same in your state also or all states? I rememeber a month before the law went into effect 15 round clips were selling for like $60.00-$80.00+!! They rasied the prices because everyone was going out and buying them before they were all gone. When 3 months previous you could buy them for under $15.00!
BuckMaster,
Yep, that's a federal law. I bought all mine pre-ban. Didn't pay more than $25 ea for any of them. Since they're original Beretta, not aftermarket, they're worth a nice chunk nowadays.
Russ, NCNE
Yep, that's a federal law. I bought all mine pre-ban. Didn't pay more than $25 ea for any of them. Since they're original Beretta, not aftermarket, they're worth a nice chunk nowadays.
Russ, NCNE
So you were one of the smart ones that cleaned house Your right those clips are VERY Valuable right now! I only have 2-15 round clips. Both orignal S/W clips. Its been so long I forgot the model of mine. I think its a 902 or something like that. It was one of the cheaper S/W 9mm. I wanted something the wife could shoot also. Thats why I picked the 9mm. Ive only used it a few times. I mostly bought it for home protection. Ive yet to see an intruder though :| I also wanted to buy one with a 15 round clip before the law went in to effect as well.
Your right those clips are VERY Valuable right now! I only have 2-15 round clips. Both orignal S/W clips. Its been so long I forgot the model of mine. I think its a 902 or something like that. It was one of the cheaper S/W 9mm. I wanted something the wife could shoot also. Thats why I picked the 9mm. Ive only used it a few times. I mostly bought it for home protection. Ive yet to see an intruder though :| I also wanted to buy one with a 15 round clip before the law went in to effect as well.Russ, under 30 days. What state do you live in? I've read somewhere that here in NY (Hillary the communist should look elsewhere) it has to be before three months or six months. i thin kit was one of the NRA sites, I'll go look. Do you think a knowledgeable attorney could push my permit along or help it go smoothly? Thanks guys!!!
EDIT: According to the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, "applications for licenses must be acted upon within 6 months after presentment". Does this mean that they must start your background check by then or that you should have your permit by then?
EDIT: According to the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, "applications for licenses must be acted upon within 6 months after presentment". Does this mean that they must start your background check by then or that you should have your permit by then?
Jumpem,
Washington. Here the state pre-empts all local jurisdictions. In other words, as long as the background check passes, the local authority (Chief or Sheriff) has no choice but to issue the permit. The law stipulates that the process cannot take longer than 30 days.
Beyond that, our Constitution is so explicit on gun rights that even the most creative gun-grabbing liberal cannot twist the words.
EDIT: If you are in a state where local jurisdiction is NOT pre-empted, it is essentially irrelevant what the law says. The locals can hang you out as long as they like; and they will.
Russ, NCNE
Washington. Here the state pre-empts all local jurisdictions. In other words, as long as the background check passes, the local authority (Chief or Sheriff) has no choice but to issue the permit. The law stipulates that the process cannot take longer than 30 days.
Beyond that, our Constitution is so explicit on gun rights that even the most creative gun-grabbing liberal cannot twist the words.
EDIT: If you are in a state where local jurisdiction is NOT pre-empted, it is essentially irrelevant what the law says. The locals can hang you out as long as they like; and they will.
Russ, NCNE
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