This is a good argument against textbook economics here. And I'd very much agree with you--Apple vs. Windows in PCs at one point, Apple vs. Samsung or Android more generally in phones today, brands have their irrational cheerleaders across the spectrum. It's very unfortunate. On the other hand, I can understand and appreciate loyalty to a brand with which you've had success--that's different, though it can be related, and rational loyalty can bleed into irrational fanboyism which can bleed back into newly irrational loyalty. I find it sad for someone to root for a gigantic profit maximizing enterprise (especially the one that could potentially become a monopoly).
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This is a good argument against textbook economics here. And I'd very much agree with you--Apple vs. Windows in PCs at one point, Apple vs. Samsung or Android more generally in phones today, brands have their irrational cheerleaders across the spectrum. It's very unfortunate. On the other hand, I can understand and appreciate loyalty to a brand with which you've had success--that's different, though it can be related, and rational loyalty can bleed into irrational fanboyism which can bleed back into newly irrational loyalty. I find it sad for someone to root for a gigantic profit maximizing enterprise (especially the one that could potentially become a monopoly).
$200 R9 290 is even a better deal! (It's a great card really, I have one ref. heater myself)
But did it help them one iota?
We've heard this many times before:
All AMD needs to do (insert something painful, like ridic price slash)
This one is not on AMD marketing department
No one can reinvent your business, when all you have is the choice between losing market share and money,
and losing even more market share and money, or some equally unattractive combination of the two.
AMD is not a viable business competing based on low prices. Its bad for revenue & profit which is what matters for long term business growth & even survival.
AMD's GPU division needs to excel because the entire company is supported by money earnt by GPUs to continue R&D expenditure. Think about how crippled they are when the CPU/APU division keeps being in the red for so long. Where do they get money to keep them afloat & continue with R&D? From the GPU division, which has to share resources, essentially subsidizing other areas of research.
NV doesn't have that crippling problem, their main research is graphics, supplied with a lot of money from high end margin on Teslas & Quadros.
It's a miracle AMD's GPU remains so competitive for so long with these problems. Thus, GCN 2.0 is their last hurrah, if it fails to win back on margins, marketshare and profit, they are dead (requiring restructuring, perhaps abandoning CPUs altogether).
Spungo
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2012
- 3,217
- 2
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Forget the crown. Make better drivers. Fix all the crashing problems.
I've purchased 3 ATI cards and all 3 of them were disappointing. The hardware was top notch, but the software was garbage.
OG Radeon - the drivers on the CD worked, but any drivers from the website would cripple the frame rate.
Radeon 9600XT - Had problems with anisotropic filtering. It would make text look slightly blurry. The card completely died after a year or so.
Radeon R9 290 - Random crashes when watching videos or playing games. I googled around and lots of other people have the same problem.
My friend just upgraded his R7 to a GeForce 980. It was the same reason as always - the R7 had weird screen tearing issues and the computer would lock up from time to time.
I really want to support AMD, but it's hard to justify buying things that don't work properly. Nvidia is able to rape people on price because their drivers are simply better. Nvidia's stuff isn't always the fastest or the cheapest, but it always works. The reliability is why people pay the premium.
The same logic is why Apple and Honda are profitable. Cars made by Honda are never the fastest, they're never the cheapest, they're not the best looking, they're not the best feeling. People buy them because they work. Same with Apple computers. Apple's products are absurdly expensive, but they work.
Nope. I bought an FX5200 when my Radeon 9600 died. The card was slow, but it always worked.
Sharing a few experiences as if those were the same for everyone across the board just isn't accurate. I've had Radeon and nvidia cards over the years and none of my ATI/AMD cards have ever died yet one of my NVIDIA cards has died. I have a handful of bugs over the years but I've also had them on my NVIDIA cards.
Geforce 2 MX 400 - happy with this card, no major issues.
Radeon 7500 - Good card, no issues.
Radeon 9500 Pro - amazing card, no major issues.
Geforce 7800 GS - card died, upgraded to an 8800 GT with a new system.
Geforce 8800 GT - several driver issues actually - I remember in one instance upgrading my drivers to fix a lockup issue in Fall out new vegas to only break another game, but hey driver issues happen.
Radeon 5870 - awesome card, incredible performance for the price at launch.
And now my Radeon R9 290 which has been a great card as well. No major driver issues/bugs to report.
I remember hearing the "ATI HAS TERRIBLE DRIVERS!" thing back when I was still using 3dfx cards (my voodoo3 to be specific) and that has unfortunately just stayed with them over the years. While improving drivers should always be a priority, I also think AMD mainly has a pr/marketing issue around drivers and they just need to change that image, which is probably what they're trying to do with the Omega release.
*edit*
I haven't experienced this issue.. but to me this sounds more like overall system instability.
Geforce 2 MX 400 - happy with this card, no major issues.
Radeon 7500 - Good card, no issues.
Radeon 9500 Pro - amazing card, no major issues.
Geforce 7800 GS - card died, upgraded to an 8800 GT with a new system.
Geforce 8800 GT - several driver issues actually - I remember in one instance upgrading my drivers to fix a lockup issue in Fall out new vegas to only break another game, but hey driver issues happen.
Radeon 5870 - awesome card, incredible performance for the price at launch.
And now my Radeon R9 290 which has been a great card as well. No major driver issues/bugs to report.
I remember hearing the "ATI HAS TERRIBLE DRIVERS!" thing back when I was still using 3dfx cards (my voodoo3 to be specific) and that has unfortunately just stayed with them over the years. While improving drivers should always be a priority, I also think AMD mainly has a pr/marketing issue around drivers and they just need to change that image, which is probably what they're trying to do with the Omega release.
*edit*
I haven't experienced this issue.. but to me this sounds more like overall system instability.
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crisium
Platinum Member
- Aug 19, 2001
- 2,643
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Spungo, your point is that Nvidia's cards always works, and AMD has 100% failure rate? Who can argue with that kind of solid anectdotal evidence?
Oh, you had another point "Make better drivers".
Clearly drivers is AMD's problem, as you said. The gains they have main on Maxwell and especially Kepler in recent months, that tells you they need better drivers? The near objective fact that Crossfire is now better than SLI, tells you AMD needs better drivers? New features with Omega, but AMD needs better drivers.
I'm not sure what else to say.
Oh, you had another point "Make better drivers".
Clearly drivers is AMD's problem, as you said. The gains they have main on Maxwell and especially Kepler in recent months, that tells you they need better drivers? The near objective fact that Crossfire is now better than SLI, tells you AMD needs better drivers? New features with Omega, but AMD needs better drivers.
I'm not sure what else to say.
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Radeon drivers are now superior, there, I said it. CF is smoother, AMD's new Omega VSR is clearer without foliage flickering compared to NV's DSR which blurs, and soon with Freesync monitors with major brands being available, it will be a great choice for gamers who appreciate smooth tear-free gaming (who doesn't??).
NV just works? Go take a look on the official NV technical forum. It will enlighten you.
AMD isn't going to win people like you over, so that's not what's its about.
They need to win over those who are after great performance, those who value $$ and those who value efficiency.
AnandThenMan
Diamond Member
- Nov 11, 2004
- 3,991
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There is no convincing some people, any issues with a Radeon card and they hold a grudge forever, issues with their GeForce are forgiven and forgotten. I've had people with NV cards say their system was perfectly stable, it only crashed "a few times a month".
Spungo I take it you completely skipped Nvidia hardware during the Vista era or stuck with XP, and were lucky enough not to install the card killing drivers. When I first got my GTX670 the drivers sucked, had several blue screens which went away with newer drivers. That card never was quite right the image quality never pleased me when hooked up to my plasma set.
Spungo I take it you completely skipped Nvidia hardware during the Vista era or stuck with XP, and were lucky enough not to install the card killing drivers. When I first got my GTX670 the drivers sucked, had several blue screens which went away with newer drivers. That card never was quite right the image quality never pleased me when hooked up to my plasma set.
Wrong.....
I have tried games like Call of Duty advance fare and Dead Rising 3 on MSI R9 290X Lighting Edition and game was running fine but when it comes to draw calls MSI R9 290X bottlenecks and goes to 30 to 40fps whereas GTX 780 Ti stays in 50 to 60fps in CPU intensive situation.
I have check 34 hrs with AMD omega drivers vs Nvidia 344.65 whql i must say Nvidia drivers provide so much smooth gaming experience where AMD driver does not and this is the reason why Nvidia fanboys cannot switch to AMD.
@desprado
Is it a surprise that AMD performs badly in NV sponsored games? For example, if I were to play mostly BF4 MP where Mantle holds 60 fps+ all the time and a smooth frame time, is it fair for me to say that because of that, NV has bad drivers?? Likewise the same for CIV BE, with Mantle I can go late game fully zoom in and out and it remains 60 fps smooth.
If that's your justification, then sure, stick to NV only if you play mostly TWIMTBP titles.
But as a non bias source, are we to take your advice over that of major review sites that do find AMD is smoother in CF over a wider range of games?
Edit: Also don't assume draw call limited, given its COD and how awful their PC versions have been optimized. Case in point: Alien Isolation, on any NV setup, especially SLI, everytime you access terminals the fps tanks, becoming a stutter mess. Do you assume draw call limitations or just drivers need to be optimized? Given a lot of games where AMD has trouble with, Borderlands, FC3/4 (which NV still has a major game breaking SLI bug) etc, are typically NV sponsored games which AMD cannot optimize for during development, its not surprising that they perform poorly.
Is it a surprise that AMD performs badly in NV sponsored games? For example, if I were to play mostly BF4 MP where Mantle holds 60 fps+ all the time and a smooth frame time, is it fair for me to say that because of that, NV has bad drivers?? Likewise the same for CIV BE, with Mantle I can go late game fully zoom in and out and it remains 60 fps smooth.
If that's your justification, then sure, stick to NV only if you play mostly TWIMTBP titles.
But as a non bias source, are we to take your advice over that of major review sites that do find AMD is smoother in CF over a wider range of games?
Edit: Also don't assume draw call limited, given its COD and how awful their PC versions have been optimized. Case in point: Alien Isolation, on any NV setup, especially SLI, everytime you access terminals the fps tanks, becoming a stutter mess. Do you assume draw call limitations or just drivers need to be optimized? Given a lot of games where AMD has trouble with, Borderlands, FC3/4 (which NV still has a major game breaking SLI bug) etc, are typically NV sponsored games which AMD cannot optimize for during development, its not surprising that they perform poorly.
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Dead Rising 3 is not.This is all over the place when outside or driving a car or hit by a zombie on R9 290X and this is why scared to buy AMD gpu.
Coming to Shadow of mordor yes AMD perform better on benchmark but did anyone try it on gaming but i have tried it and it same experience as Dead Rising 3.
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So anyone that doesnt share your unpopular view to boycott nvidia is dumb? IntetestingSo you crossed off AMD GPUs off your list because the known to fail XFX 5870 let you down? Not sure I get that since we have people on our boards with failed 570, 670 cards, etc. Should we talk about the utterly horrendous GeForce 8 that was a ticking lead-free solder time bomb? I bet the failure rate of GeForce 8 is catastrophic over 5 years of ownership. This is not like 1 vendor producing crap but ALL mobile and desktop GeForce 8 cards. Every single one can fail at any time since they are all flawed.
Also, $1000 Titan, $650 280, $650 780 leave a negative association for me with NV, not positive. To you NV selling $1000 Titan and $3000 Titan Z is good brand image, but to me it's arrogance, rip off milking cows, and greed.
It's like they want me to bend over for marginally faster performance? 980 for $550 when I can get nearly 2 290Xs for that price and send 980 tonthe grave in 90% of titles (same with unlocked 6950s vs. a 580). For me AMD is like a Porsche GT3, gives me 90% of the performance of Ferrari 458/McLaren MP4-12C for a fraction of the price, minus the snov factor. Once a new gen comes out, I put the money towards a new card and move on. NV used to be like that with stunning cards like GeForce 3 Ti 200, GeForce 4 Ti 4200, GeForce 6800 GT, GTX460/470. Since GTX580, NV basically sent message to me that I gotta pay 50-100% more for 18-20% more peformance. It's not a little bit more, it's a lot more.
Frankly for me, NV wasn't even an option for the last 5 years since AMD cards made $ and I still bought 470s to play around with during the mining craze. But that proves the point of many posters here -- NV users will pay $1000 for dual 680s rather than get 7970s free. There are posters on this forum who will pay $1000 for GM200 instead of getting dual 390X for free. It's because of blind following of NV brand that AMD can release a card 2X faster for 0.5X the price, and most NV owners would still buy NV.
Look at horrible cards like 450GTS, GTX550, 650/650Ti, 750/750Ti. Sold like hot cakes and all of them were overpriced junk for 80% of their lives. People buy 750Ti for the same price as a 30-35% faster R9 270 with games included too. What more do you need to know?
Buying NV also no longer means bullet proof drivers or future-proofness. NV stops supporting their old cards like Kepler and they purposely make their cards VRAM limited so you upgrade to their next gen. In many ways NV is like Apple and JHH has praised Apple many times. He loves high prices, snobbery brand image, and closed/proprietary features and marketing tactics. I had the money to buy 580s and 780Tis since AMD cards made me thousands of dollars in mining but then I see how quickly GPUs become obsolete, so I see no point paying top dollar for 10-15% more peformance with NV. It's not like 4200 or 6800GT days where I could buy NV's 2nd or 3rd best card and get 90% of flagship performance. The company that consistently brings this now is AMD. I am glad I saved thousands of dollars since 2008 and lost almost nothing in performance.
I would say the market share reflects the average PC gamer well. They are not very knowledgeable, don't understand tech and buy based on brand name / marketing. I spent $0 on graphics cards from 2008, but how much has an NV user spent since then? That's all I need to know. I know I made the right decision, if anything should have bought 10X more AMD cards
Also, for the record, your opinion is just that. It doesnt make u smarter than everyone. Just because you have issues understanding, i guess your lashing out.
Your post is mostly made up and full of it.
Personally, i know many people who bought 8800gt, 8600gt, etc. I know
of several still in use today. My brother has two 8800gt gpus, both still in use daily. I know a guy with 8500 gt sli in his athlon 6400 x2 rig. I just recently met a lady when a took my son to a birthday party, she was playing Sims2 with an 8600 gt on an emachine.
There are countless used 8800 gt cards on ebay and all over the net. What your claiming, there shouldnt be a single one.
We have heard your opinion on nvidia a million times. Every time you try to pass off purely made up stuff as fact. It is all your opinion, which the largest majority of all people who still buy PCs simply do not share.
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AnandThenMan
Diamond Member
- Nov 11, 2004
- 3,991
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RS is stating his opinion I don't see the problem here, no lashing out just giving facts as he knows them.
One this that cannot be disputed is any bumpgate GPU WILL die, period. It's only a matter of time the solder integrity is flawed and degrades when current is passed though it, there is no changing this.
The majority of buyers are not educated, they make purchases for superficial reasons. On an enthusiast forum like this no, people have a much greater knowledge of tech, the casual buyers at Best Buy do not.
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Spungo
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2012
- 3,217
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Exactly.
You can see evidence of this by sorting newegg products by rating.
http://www.newegg.com/Desktop-Graphi...8?Order=RATING
Top 10 by rating are:
GTX 760
GTX 760
GTX 750 Ti
GTX 760
GTX 750 Ti
GTX 980
Radeon 270X
GTX 760
GTX 980
GTX 980
So out of the 10 cards with the most satisfied customers, 9 of them are Nvidia, 1 of them is AMD. This looks exactly like car reliability ratings where the list of the top 10 vehicles will be mostly Honda and Toyota.
Coming as a surprise to absolutely nobody, my Radeon 290 tends to have lower ratings.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...rchResult=True
1 has 5/5 average rating
6 have 4/5 average rating
3 have 3/5 average rating
1 has 2/5 average rating
That's actually a pretty good distribution curve. I would put my card at maybe a 3/5. It gets a 5 for raw computing power, but the crashes can't be ignored. The card is Folding, Furmark, and OCCT PSU stable, but there's something about watching videos that causes crashes. It only does it when watching videos or playing games. I can leave the computer folding all day and night and it will never crash.
I hope it doesn't happen, but are you asking this question seriously? AMD has a monopoly in the console space. That happened. Intel is considered a GPU maker with their integrated and compete with low end discrete. AMD's APU's compete with low end discrete. Yes it COULD legally happen. It would be horrible for every consumer.
I personally think AMD needs to go back to focusing on small / mid dies. They need to abandon the compute market. Intel and Nvidia are going to eat AMD's lunch in that space. They need to just focus on graphics. Their R&D is now lower than Nvidia's yet they have a product portfolio more than twice that of Nvidia. The economics do not make sense. Their CFX scaling is fantastic so use two 330mm^2 GPU's in a single-card solution to compete against (and probably beat) Nvidia's flagship card. Having the hands down best perf/mm2 in the 100-300 mm^2 die size range is the best way for them to attack going forward. The 4870, 5870, and 6870 were amazing chips that all dominated in perf/mm2 and were highly, highly regarded during their reign. (The 6870 may not have been as popular, but that was sadly because AMD's marketing department deftly named it 6870 instead of 6850 or 6770. The chip itself was fantastic.)
It's better to compete well in 3 markets than compete poorly in 6 markets.
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chimaxi83
Diamond Member
- May 18, 2003
- 5,457
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Thanks for answering. I was asking seriously. I thought I'd read here many times that an Nvidia monopoly would be bad for Nvidia and that they need AMD, in a sense. But I'm probably confusing Nvidia with Intel.
Sorry but you can't use that Data to prove your point.
Those reviews are first sorted by number of reviews and then sorted by the number of positive reviews.
I choose to focus on 5 & 4 star reviews.
Let's see the pattern here
Item 1) 382 Reviews, 92% positive & 8% negative
Item 2) 286 Reviews, 88% positive & 12% negative
Item 3) 150 Reviews, 93% positive & 7% negative
Item 4) 124 Reviews, 92% positive & 8% negative.
5 & 4 stars were used as positive & rest as negative.
Do you see the pattern.?
The reviews are not sorted by the Best rating, it is sorted by the Best rating & the most unit sold. So the cheaper cards are on top & even the awesome 980 comes in at 6th place & the even better performance/watt/$ 970 is even lower.
To use a car analogy like yours, You are saying that Toyota sold 100 cars & 83% of their customers are satisfied so they are better than Honda who sold 80 cars & had 90% satisfied customers.
As for your crashes, there was a fix for it, it is something like disabling the Video acceleration or flash player in the browser. Now we supposedly have an official fix, the new Omega driver claims to have fix that issue.
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burninatortech4
Senior member
- Jan 29, 2014
- 764
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This is what I see from the graph:
1 - when AMD has a clear performance advantage, they get ~40% of the market.
2 - When NV has an advantage (performance and/or power efficiency) the sky is the limit for market share
This tells me that many NV buyers will simply not purchase AMD. There IS a population of folks who just buy the best (maybe 10-20%?) and the rest are die-hard AMD buyers. Maybe look like this:
60% Nvidia die-hards
20% 'switch hitters'
20% AMD die-hards
I see a lot of recent resistance at the 60% market share where AMD cannot exceed 40% of the market, regardless of performance or efficiency advantages.
Myself - I fall in the switch buyers. I went from the 5870 to the 670, but probably would have gotten a 7970 if I had purchased a few months after the 670 release (7970 price cuts and so forth). I grabbed the 970 because I could get a cheap water block for it (old 670 block) vs. anything else.
I was looking for a way to describe it this well. Thank you for this. I know so many people that either 1) Refuse to buy AMD as Nvidia diehards (in many cases for no real reason) 2) Have never heard of AMD or 3) buy OEM intel products that 99% of the time, it seems, have a nvidia dgpu.
We still don't even know what Q4 looks like. AMD slashed prices pretty hard in response to Nvidia's launch. I bought 2, switched to AMD for the first time since 5870.
the R9 380X / R9 390 / R9 390X are expected in Feb - March 2015. AMD is managing their finances very well inspite of share losses in CPU and GPU markets. You will be surprised at how quickly AMD is going to win back the lost GPU market share and some more.
AnandThenMan
Diamond Member
- Nov 11, 2004
- 3,991
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Don't see it happening. But for the sake of us the consumer I hope it does.You will be surprised at how quickly AMD is going to win back the lost GPU market share and some more.
I think that it ultimately would be bad for Nvidia as well. A lack of competition would erode innovation and inflate prices. Higher prices coupled with less compelling products would result in fewer people upgrading. Some people would quit PC gaming altogether. AMD needs to be healthy. They are doing a fantastic job planting seeds with Mantle and exerting their technological familiarity among developers with ports (i.e. getting great performance in recent titles), but all of this may be for naught if Fiji is lackluster and DX12 takes the wind out of Mantle's sails.
Both AMD and Nvidia have many wild cards in play right now, but it's AMD that is currently riding the line.
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No they all are coming in Summer according to there statements and interview.the R9 380X / R9 390 / R9 390X are expected in Feb - March 2015. AMD is managing their finances very well inspite of share losses in CPU and GPU markets. You will be surprised at how quickly AMD is going to win back the lost GPU market share and some more.
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