[hexus.net]AMD claims it will power another gaming device

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

The blitter and object processor in the Jaguar were both 64 bit. I don't know if I would call it a 64 bit system but it's not as simple as saying there were two 32 bit processors. In fact the system had 3 processors, a 68000, a DSP, and the Jaguar which was both a 32 and 64 bit processor on a single piece of silicon. It was actually a very complex piece of hardware for its day and such most games didn't even begin to harness the available power. Rayman was one of the few that used at least some of the capability.

Exactly..... The Jaguar is an enigma. I know a lot of people refer to the Neo Geo AES as a "24 bit" console because of the color palette, but I'm not sure I'd go there either. Architecturally, the Neo Geo is a lot like a Sega Genesis on steroids. The TurboGrafx 16 is another example of this game console enigma.... Because technically it was powered by a lowly 8 bit CPU, yet marketed with its 16 bit graphics (which could be argued was technically accurate). So the Atari Jaguar was not the first system to muddy the waters of its actual "bits."

To reiterate for 1993, no game console could touch the processing power of the Atari Jaguar.... And even though the 32X and 3DO were technically 32 bit systems -- neither was capable of keeping up with a PS1 in processing power. The PS1 really did shift the market and was the beginning of the end for Sega as a hardware manufacturer.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It is future proofed in the sense that it will take time for devs to fully utilize multithreading, which means probably more years of research.

Isnt that a false hope.

 

[monstercameron]

Isnt that a false hope.

maybe but false hope implies an impossibility, which it definitely isn't.

 

[mrmt]

Even more to add, if you went for 4 cores on the consoles, you end up screwed, 4C/4T, for the design of them you need at least 2 threads or 2 cores, for OS and background tasks.
What, an i7? Yeah, price. An i5? There goes performance. Atom? Maybe, but intel gpu not good enough.

i5 and i7 are the same die, the fact that one has HT and the other doesn't is much more related to market segmentation than any technical limitations, so for all effects you could think of a 4C/8T console, but there are other points favoring the AMD design, for example, the fact that a highly synthesisable design like Jaguar is much more IP friendly than Intel Core family, and their still superior GPU IP.

But I find amusing the notion that AMD was the only company able to provide a solution for the console OEMs. IBM and Nvidia already had expertise in the area, and there was nothing preventing Intel from doing so, and these companies could devote far more resources to the venture than AMD. AMD's main advantage is that nobody with the resources to develop the console chips were willing to go as low as them in terms of price (mid-teens margins) and was in so much need of cash as them (taking upfront cash from the OEMs, further eroding the margins). AMD simply offered the best "bang for the buck" for the console OEMs, and given that the consoles were fundamentally cost-constrained this time, this is *the* selling point, regardless of all the technical limitations anyone can see on the solution.

 

[Shivansps]

You are ignoring the fact that all commercial game engines have a even higher problem making it very MT efficient, its not that easy, and thats costs money, BF4 is also a very special case, first off, its a very simple game, specially in multiplayer, all the complexity is the physics system and the low level api needed to draw "blow up" pieces, thats 2 items that you can run very efficiently on multiple cores, but thats about it, the rest is too complex and you cant do it anyway because still with 6 cores is not enoght, games are still limited to 1 core to run the AI, and thats a big problem right there.

Also dont forget that "just because it runs fine" does not also means that the games havent been put thought a chainsaw and dirty tricks in order to do so. And thats no good.

Do you think you can make a game like on the level of the planned SC complexity to run on 6 weak cores? you just cant, a minimum of 2 are gona be used for physics and another 2 for API rendering, that leaves you with only 2 for game logic, AI and audio, not good, time to use the chainsaw. And im not even sure if 2 are gona be enoght for rendering.

Anyone comparing to tablets, remember one thing- thermal throttling. The PS4 may only run at 1.6GHz, but that clock is rock solid. It won't drop down to half that frequency just because you loaded the GPU at the same time.

Sure, but its only about the CPU, comparing turbos and igp is just no fair, tablets use a sheet of aluminium as a cooler, if any.
Just the fact that a tablet cpu could get probably about 50 to 60% of the cpu power in a "gaming device" is stunning. And the ones with the Z3770 and Z3775 will get even closer.

 

[AnandThenMan]

There is one aspect of all of this that many have completely ignored or not thought it through. I've seen repeated many times that the current gen of consoles brings nothing new or innovative to the table. Then there is the citation of other consoles that did indeed contain some breakthroughs in graphics. The above is true, but it is more to do with timing than anything else.

Currently graphics tech is pretty much static, we get process shrinks and more of the same, literally. More transistors of the same tech, maybe a few small features tacked on. Now AMD has been highly criticized by several people here because the PS4/Xbone does not bring anything ground breaking or new to graphics. Okay, so who has this ground breaking tech? Nvidia? No. Intel? No. Anyone else? Nope.

Nvidia could have supplied a GPU for the consoles, but it would have been up against the same power/cost/perf wall as AMD. And it would have needed a separate processor, either from AMD or Intel. This would have increased cost and power. Intel is completely out of the running because they don't have anything near fast enough, and if they were able to make something fast enough it would be hideously expensive.

Bottom line AMD's APU was by far the best solution available nothing else even comes close. I kept asking people to give a rough idea of what should have been used instead of the "weak cores" etc. but no suggestion, just silence.

 

[AnandThenMan]

But I find amusing the notion that AMD was the only company able to provide a solution for the console OEMs. IBM and Nvidia already had expertise in the area,

Stop right there. Are you suggesting that there should have been an PowerPC/Nvidia hybrid processor?

..and there was nothing preventing Intel from doing so,

Nothing? Intel doesn't have the graphics tech have you looked at the absolute fastest Intel GPU?

and these companies could devote far more resources to the venture than AMD.

Intel has thrown plenty of resources at their graphics tech and it's still nothing worth talking about.

AMD's main advantage is that nobody with the resources to develop the console chips were willing to go as low as them in terms of price (mid-teens margins)

It's not about margins it's about actual cost. Even if Intel went with 5% the cost of the chip would be way out of reach. Just look at what their processors cost now.

AMD simply offered the best "bang for the buck" for the console OEMs, and given that the consoles were fundamentally cost-constrained this time, this is *the* selling point, regardless of all the technical limitations anyone can see on the solution.

You say this like it's a negative. It's not. And the "technical limitations" don't exist because what AMD provided is better than anything else out there, and better than anything Intel has at any cost.

 

[mrmt]

Stop right there. Are you suggesting that there should have been an PowerPC/Nvidia hybrid processor?

Nope, I'm suggesting that there *could* have been such a hybrid solution.

Nothing? Intel doesn't have the graphics tech have you looked at the absolute fastest Intel GPU?

Intel could outright license Nvidia GPU tech or someone else's tech if they were genuinely interested in getting the contract. Or they could just drop more resources in developing technology. The barrier is not really technical, but more of resources.

You say this like it's a negative. It's not. And the "technical limitations" don't exist because what AMD provided is better than anything else out there, and better than anything Intel has at any cost.

Does it? What if the CPU performance targets of the console chips were higher than AMD could provide with the cat cores, what technology would they have deployed for the consoles? Bulldozer? I would *love* to see the cooling solution they would have to use for such design and how it would be reflected in the case design of the consoles. What if the form factors were to be even smaller, could AMD match the performance/watt of Maxwell or of Core? In both cases AMD didn't have the technology read for deployment and would have to develop it, which would kill the value proposition of their offer. See? change one or two critical variables and AMD might not be the best game in town.

 

[monstercameron]

Nope, I'm suggesting that there *could* have been such a hybrid solution.







Intel could outright license Nvidia GPU tech or someone else's tech if they were genuinely interested in getting the contract. Or they could just drop more resources in developing technology. The barrier is not really technical, but more of resources.







Does it? What if the CPU performance targets of the console chips were higher than AMD could provide with the cat cores, what technology would they have deployed for the consoles? Bulldozer? I would *love* to see the cooling solution they would have to use for such design and how it would be reflected in the case design of the consoles. What if the form factors were to be even smaller, could AMD match the performance/watt of Maxwell or of Core? In both cases AMD didn't have the technology read for deployment and would have to develop it, which would kill the value proposition of their offer. See? change one or two critical variables and AMD might not be the best game in town.

There is possibility and there is feasibility, how would it be feasible for Intel to design a killer console chip, with relatively small margins with licensed tech from nvidia or maybe Imgtec ...then again AMD does have a licensed dsp but they also recycle these parts.

 

[mrmt]

There is possibility and there is feasibility, how would it be feasible for Intel to design a killer console chip, with relatively small margins with licensed tech from nvidia or maybe Imgtec ...then again AMD does have a licensed dsp but they also recycle these parts.

With the current set of constraints or a different one? I don't think Intel could ever design a console chip as good as AMD's with the same budget AMD got to fulfill the the contract. If anything, Intel wouldn't even be bothered to try with such low returns, on top of having to develop or license technology that they currently don't have.

But change this set of constraints by moving them close to the bleeding edge (and consequently pay more for the console chips) and Intel and Nvidia might have provided a better value proposition.

 

[AnandThenMan]

There is possibility and there is feasibility

Exactly this.

But change this set of constraints by moving them close to the bleeding edge (and consequently pay more for the console chips) and Intel and Nvidia might have provided a better value proposition.

This is just another way of saying AMD has the best solution.

 

[monstercameron]

With the current set of constraints or a different one? I don't think Intel could ever design a console chip as good as AMD's with the same budget AMD got to fulfill the the contract. If anything, Intel wouldn't even be bothered to try with such low returns, on top of having to develop or license technology that they currently don't have.



But change this set of constraints by moving them close to the bleeding edge (and consequently pay more for the console chips) and Intel and Nvidia might have provided a better value proposition.

At the bleeding edge you may have a point but is entirely possible that amd also could scale up performance, to be competive.

 

[mrmt]

Exactly this.

This is just another way of saying AMD has the best solution.

For the given set of constraints? Yes. For *any* set of constraints, as you stated? No.

 

[mrmt]

At the bleeding edge you may have a point but is entirely possible that amd also could scale up performance, to be competive.

With what? Bulldozer?

 

[monstercameron]

With what? Bulldozer?

MOAR COARS! lol

 

[mrmt]

MOAR COARS! lol

ROFL.

 

[AnandThenMan]

For the given set of constraints? Yes. For *any* set of constraints, as you stated? No.

So come up with a hardware spec not using AMD components. I'll wait.

You mentioned an Nvidia/Power hybrid. How much will that cost to develop and how long will it take? No such thing exists so it will have to be build from scratch. And a whole new set of dev tools will have to be created for a new architecture unlike the current consoles.

You're really grasping at straws here.

 

[caswow]

if intel and if nvidia. no they dont. if amd had bleeding edge nodes their cpus would have lower tdp. but they dont have so why argumenting like this?

 

[monstercameron]

So come up with a hardware spec not using AMD components. I'll wait.

You mentioned an Nvidia/Power hybrid. How much will that cost to develop and how long will it take? No such thing exists so it will have to be build from scratch. And a whole new set of dev tools will have to be created for a new architecture unlike the current consoles.

You're really grasping at straws here.

Licensing a ppc core isn't unheard of and nvidia could just as well use an off the shelf gpu like the 750ti.

 

[monstercameron]

if intel and if nvidia. no they dont. if amd had bleeding edge nodes their cpus would have lower tdp. but they dont have so why argumenting like this?

Bleeding edge is a relative term. 28nm could be described as bleeding edge when there are 90, 65 & 45nm fabs still producing chips

 

[caswow]

Licensing a ppc core isn't unheard of and nvidia could just as well use an off the shelf gpu like the 750ti.

so now we take newest gpus and compare them to the process of building a console that was done years ago? wth

Bleeding edge is a relative term. 28nm could be described as bleeding edge when there are still 90, 65 & 45nm fans still producing chips

everything is relative but if you compare directly with their competitor its not bleeding edge anymore. its mainstream.

 

[monstercameron]

so now we take newest gpus and compare them to the process of building a console that was done years ago? wth

A little confused about your response, I'm playing devils advocate here...trying to understand another's point of view by humoring them...could you rephrase that comment?

 

[AnandThenMan]

To match the AMD APU there would have to be a PowerPC/Nvidia hybrid with a shared pool or memory among other things. Custom chip designed from the ground up. Not feasible in fact the suggestion is fairly ridiculous. It took AMD several generations to get the APU to the state it's in now.

And remember the APU is used in other devices/markets. So either Sony/MS would eat the substantial cost of designing this Power/Nvidia hybrid, or said chip would end up in other devices to monetize the development. Sketchy proposition at best Sony and MS would be crazy to pursue such a thing. Especially considering it would probably end up being slower anyway!

 

[caswow]

A little confused about your response, I'm playing devils advocate here...trying to understand another's point of view by humoring them...could you rephrase that comment?

current gen consoles were planned long before a card like the 750ti hit the marked. you cant just take "recently" released hardware and say this and that could have been in the current gen consoles why did it have to be amd apus.

 

[monstercameron]

currend gen consoles were planned long before a card like the 750ti hit the marked. you cant just take "recently" released hardware and say this and that could have been in the currend gen consoles why did it have to be amd apus.

lol you make it sound like nvidia designed maxwell the day it got released. I am assuming that nvidia had maxwell in the works in a similar time frame coinciding with amd's work on their semi custom apu.