Haven't read all the way through, so I don't know if this has been said or not, but in America waiters are taxed on expected tips, so if you don't tip, soley based upon your theory (particularly rude/obnoxious service is a different matter), just know that you are screwing them over because they'll now have to pay taxes on money that they never get.
<< Everyone here bashing Epsil0n for his opinion needs to learn how to read. He is just giving an alternative suggestion to the current norm of tipping. If every place ran their restaurant with a standard 7 or 8 dollars an hour, then you could not say that you would get crappy service everywhere. The places that give crappy service would cease to exist or less people would frequent those places. This would also make the restaurants get a more equal quality of service professionals in that they would all be paying the same or close to the same wages and people would not only want to work for places with the highest menu prices and volume. This will increase the menu prices but at least your service would not be determined by how much that server thinks you may tip them by your looks or whether or not you smoke or drink (smoking sections tend to tip more). I would be much happier paying more on the menu if there is a chance of going to different quality of restaurants and getting par service throughout. >>
Hi Shadow, welcome to the discussion. Why don't you read some posts first, then talk.
We are bashing Epsilon not because he is giving a suggestion. I love his idea of restaurants paying more to the wait staff, that would be GREAT! But guess what... That is not how it is, that is not how it will be. Therefore, his suggestion is NOT a suggestion, because he is acting on it. And that's the problem.
<< yeha, but you don't have to deal with customers ^_^ >>
Yeah, so what's the big deal? What does a customer usually complain about? hardly ever the service, it's usually the food, in which case it's not even a direct complaint to the waiter or waitress. So in which case the complaint is just forwarded to the cooks. Even if it was a direct complaint, how many people actually complain to the waiter or waitress? they go straight to management, so the complaint isn't even handled by the waiter or waitress... so what exactly is your point?
Ns1
No Lifer
- Jun 17, 2001
- 55,420
- 1,600
- 126
<< << yeha, but you don't have to deal with customers ^_^ >>
Yeah, so what's the big deal? What does a customer usually complain about? hardly ever the service, it's usually the food, in which case it's not even a direct complaint to the waiter or waitress. So in which case the complaint is just forwarded to the cooks. Even if it was a direct complaint, how many people actually complain to the waiter or waitress? they go straight to management, so the complaint isn't even handled by the waiter or waitress... so what exactly is your point? >>
can i get a refill please
can i get some butter
can i get some steak sauce
do you have a (insert untensil here)
etc etc etc
they get tipped because they are serving them
The japanese restaraunt i go to charge us 18%. It's in the bill so we can't do anything about. It's Kabuki in Christianburg, VA.
Near Va Tech
Near Va Tech
If no one tipped, then no one would work those jobs, and then in order to get people to work, they'd have to pay them more. Then they'd have to charge more. Get the picture? Just tip.
This sounds toooooo much like Asian culture...gotta pay to get the good stuff....if you don't slip some $, you don't get the good service
Static911
Static911
NeuroSynapsis alright, I'll give you the fact that they have to do that stuff, but if they weren't doing that, what else would they be doing? they don't clean the utensils that you use, they simply get it for you. So basically you are saying that because they get you drinks/condiments/utensils, they should get paid more than the people who actually do the work? When an order is taken, it's only forwarded to the cooks, there is no preparation involved, except for the fact that they have things such as salads and soups that go out beforehand. But it's part of their job to put up with the crap from the customer, just like it is for me to be cooking in the back room and to make sure that everything is sanitary before I send it out to the customer, otherwise I get two bitchings, one from my boss and one from the waitress who I gave the bad order to. ...next challenge.
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 25,134
- 2,450
- 126
Man, don't you hate getting served by a waiter or waitress AFTER they run into a customer like Epsil0n00? They're usually furious about getting stiffed on their tip, and end up taking it out on ME. Hell, they'll probably be sharing their bad attitude with their customers for their rest of their shift, and other showing the little rant that you wrote to all the rest of the wait staff when they should be refilling drinks and printing out my dinner check.
Oh, and you can be certain that they?ll be coming after me if I DARED to give this person a sub-standard tip.
Thanks at lot, Epsil0n00. By saving a few measly bucks on a tip, you ruined someone's day, which sequentially ruined the dining experience for a bunch of other people.
Oh, and you can be certain that they?ll be coming after me if I DARED to give this person a sub-standard tip.
Thanks at lot, Epsil0n00. By saving a few measly bucks on a tip, you ruined someone's day, which sequentially ruined the dining experience for a bunch of other people.
Wow - long board... I read Epsil0n00's initial post and a few (but not all) replies, so forgive me if this is a repeat.
First off - when I am in the States, I am a tipper. Usually 15% to 20%.
However, not all countries or areas recognise tipping as necessary or even appropriate. Japan for example has no tipping concept whatsoever. Not at restaurants, not in taxis, not anywhere. And I can tell you that the level of service in Japan is significantly higher than just about the all of the finest places in the US. All Japanese taxi drivers wear suits, and white gloves. They open the door for you (it is electronically controlled). All restaurants and wait-staff are incredibly polite, and are even ashamed or embarrassed if their ability to serve you in English is not quite up to par. I love USA more than anything, but I hate leaving Japan (with great service and no tips) to come back to the USA and pay 20% to some teen agree who works a part time job and doesn't give a crap about how he does it. But remember- I still tip!
As many posters have pointed out, tipping just reduces the cost that the biz owner needs to pay the employee, thereby reducing the cost of the goods or services you have bought. In Japan, the food and the taxi rides are more expensive to compensate for the no tipping concept.
Tipping is just a tax on discounted products/services.
So it really just depends, are you the kind of person who likes to know up front exactly what something costs, or do you like to figure out in your head what it will be with 20% tacked on top. Are you the kind of person who shops at expensive shops in towns with no sales tax, or at discount shops in towns with high sales tax?
I personally like to know up front, but I also believe that there is no way that the standard of tipping will go away any time soon. If you really want to make it happen, then you should open up a no tipping restaurant, and hire people for a fair wage to compensate for the lack of tips. If people are like me, and like to know the up front all-in price, then they may come to your restaurant (assuming the food is good). If that happens, then maybe other restaurants will follow.
I suppose it is possible to induce this change in the way that Epsil0n00 originally envisioned.... If everyone didn't tip then wait staff would quit then restaurants would need to hire people at higher pay, then product prices would naturally rise, then everyone would make out just the same, but there would be no net economic savings for anyone. Plus, you run serious risk... if _everyone_ doesn't do it at the same time then you just seem like all the expletives that people have been throwing around at you.
Good luck.
First off - when I am in the States, I am a tipper. Usually 15% to 20%.
However, not all countries or areas recognise tipping as necessary or even appropriate. Japan for example has no tipping concept whatsoever. Not at restaurants, not in taxis, not anywhere. And I can tell you that the level of service in Japan is significantly higher than just about the all of the finest places in the US. All Japanese taxi drivers wear suits, and white gloves. They open the door for you (it is electronically controlled). All restaurants and wait-staff are incredibly polite, and are even ashamed or embarrassed if their ability to serve you in English is not quite up to par. I love USA more than anything, but I hate leaving Japan (with great service and no tips) to come back to the USA and pay 20% to some teen agree who works a part time job and doesn't give a crap about how he does it. But remember- I still tip!
As many posters have pointed out, tipping just reduces the cost that the biz owner needs to pay the employee, thereby reducing the cost of the goods or services you have bought. In Japan, the food and the taxi rides are more expensive to compensate for the no tipping concept.
Tipping is just a tax on discounted products/services.
So it really just depends, are you the kind of person who likes to know up front exactly what something costs, or do you like to figure out in your head what it will be with 20% tacked on top. Are you the kind of person who shops at expensive shops in towns with no sales tax, or at discount shops in towns with high sales tax?
I personally like to know up front, but I also believe that there is no way that the standard of tipping will go away any time soon. If you really want to make it happen, then you should open up a no tipping restaurant, and hire people for a fair wage to compensate for the lack of tips. If people are like me, and like to know the up front all-in price, then they may come to your restaurant (assuming the food is good). If that happens, then maybe other restaurants will follow.
I suppose it is possible to induce this change in the way that Epsil0n00 originally envisioned.... If everyone didn't tip then wait staff would quit then restaurants would need to hire people at higher pay, then product prices would naturally rise, then everyone would make out just the same, but there would be no net economic savings for anyone. Plus, you run serious risk... if _everyone_ doesn't do it at the same time then you just seem like all the expletives that people have been throwing around at you.
Good luck.
Interesting thread. I only tip 15% when the service is good. This post reminds me of the movie "Reservoir Dogs", and Steve Buscemi's lines at the opening of the movie... Pure hilarity ! One of my favorite movies by the way.
I suppose it is possible to induce this change in the way that Epsil0n00 originally envisioned.... If everyone didn't tip then wait staff would quit then restaurants would need to hire people at higher pay, then product prices would naturally rise, then everyone would make out just the same, but there would be no net economic savings for anyone. Plus, you run serious risk... if _everyone_ doesn't do it at the same time then you just seem like all the expletives that people have been throwing around at you.
but its the worst way to get change, by punishing the poor waiters.
but its the worst way to get change, by punishing the poor waiters.
Bushwicktrini
Senior member
- Jan 8, 2002
- 756
- 2
- 81
The only thing I don't like is when they include the tip on your bill automaticlly :disgust: because when the waiter knows the tip is included he/she doesn't do as good a job. So I have takin to only paying the food part of the bill and tipping what I feel the deserve. It get me in some problems but when they call the manager I explain why I didn't pay the whole tip it always works out for me.
Ns1
No Lifer
- Jun 17, 2001
- 55,420
- 1,600
- 126
<< NeuroSynapsis alright, I'll give you the fact that they have to do that stuff, but if they weren't doing that, what else would they be doing? they don't clean the utensils that you use, they simply get it for you. So basically you are saying that because they get you drinks/condiments/utensils, they should get paid more than the people who actually do the work? When an order is taken, it's only forwarded to the cooks, there is no preparation involved, except for the fact that they have things such as salads and soups that go out beforehand. But it's part of their job to put up with the crap from the customer, just like it is for me to be cooking in the back room and to make sure that everything is sanitary before I send it out to the customer, otherwise I get two bitchings, one from my boss and one from the waitress who I gave the bad order to. ...next challenge. >>
washing dishes cooking food etc is unskilled labor
not to be racist, but here in so cali you can find a grip of immigrants that'd be more than happy to take up the position
you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers
and yes it's part of their job to put up with the customer, and they only do that for the money. i know for a fact i wuldn't work as a waiter of the money wasn't there ^_^
<< not to be racist, but here in so cali you can find a grip of immigrants that'd be more than happy to take up the position
you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers >>
What the f-ck are you talking about?
You are making a generalization that is clearly wrong. :frown:
<< and yes it's part of their job to put up with the customer, and they only do that for the money. i know for a fact i wuldn't work as a waiter of the money wasn't there ^_^ >>
I dunno if this happens in food serving, but I totally know what you mean. There are some people who'd stand in front of a customer service counter and scream and yell about a product they don't like. They say they bought it three month ago and then..(excuses excuses) and they're gonna sue the store and such. I'd sure hate to be dealing with customers like that.
<< you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers >>
I'd also like to know what the fvck you're talking about. What a fvck'in BS racist comment.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,391
- 19,709
- 146
<<
<< you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers >>
I'd also like to know what the fvck you're talking about. What a fvck'in BS racist comment. >>
Not really. What if it's a German immigrant? Is that racist?
Sheesh.
At any rate, if you cannot speak English well, or at all, you're not going to be a good waiter. That's reality.
<< << you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers >>
I'd also like to know what the fvck you're talking about. What a fvck'in BS racist comment. >>
Not really. What if it's a German immigrant? Is that racist? >>
So what if it is a German immigrant (and from his so cali comment we both know what he meant)? It's still racist. If he had said "you can't have people who can't speak English very well working as waiters" there wouldn't be a problem, but he didn't. My soon-to-be wife is Hispanic. She's taking English classes to become fluent. Right now she isn't fluent enough to be a waitress, but eventually she will be. And when she is, she'll still be an immigrant.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Just a few thoughts...
people call you a cheap a$$hole for not tipping- why? who put the waiters/delivery boy on your payroll? It's not like you're withholding his paycheck... of course, you will argue that the regular pay is so bad that they depend on tips. Now this is strange to me, if the pay is bad without the gratitude of people, find another job. There are plenty of remedial jobs where you make similar low hourly wages as a waiter and there are no gratious people to give you tips- you ever tip a janitor, the mcdonalds cashier, or a phone operator? If people stop taking these jobs where they claim tipping is what supports them, then eventually the managers would be forced to offer a higher wage, right? But I guess not since unemployment is rising and some people can't even find a job while some people cry about not getting tipped! Silly!
(btw i do tip- and usually very well!)
people call you a cheap a$$hole for not tipping- why? who put the waiters/delivery boy on your payroll? It's not like you're withholding his paycheck... of course, you will argue that the regular pay is so bad that they depend on tips. Now this is strange to me, if the pay is bad without the gratitude of people, find another job. There are plenty of remedial jobs where you make similar low hourly wages as a waiter and there are no gratious people to give you tips- you ever tip a janitor, the mcdonalds cashier, or a phone operator? If people stop taking these jobs where they claim tipping is what supports them, then eventually the managers would be forced to offer a higher wage, right? But I guess not since unemployment is rising and some people can't even find a job while some people cry about not getting tipped! Silly!
(btw i do tip- and usually very well!)
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,391
- 19,709
- 146
<< Just a few thoughts...
people call you a cheap a$$hole for not tipping- why? who put the waiters/delivery boy on your payroll? It's not like you're withholding his paycheck... of course, you will argue that the regular pay is so bad that they depend on tips. Now this is strange to me, if the pay is bad without the gratitude of people, find another job. There are plenty of remedial jobs where you make similar low hourly wages as a waiter and there are no gratious people to give you tips- you ever tip a janitor, the mcdonalds cashier, or a phone operator? If people stop taking these jobs where they claim tipping is what supports them, then eventually the managers would be forced to offer a higher wage, right? But I guess not since unemployment is rising and some people can't even find a job while some people cry about not getting tipped! Silly!
(btw i do tip- and usually very well!) >>
They get basicaly NO hourly wage (so low, it's inconsequential), with the unwritten agreement that YOU, the customer become their boss and are responsible for paying them for their services. This custom started so that YOU have control over thier pay giving YOU the power to pay, or not pay according to the level of service you receive.
I cannot, for the life of me, understand why people have a hard time grasping the advantage this offers the individual customer over having waiters paid hourly by a boss.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,391
- 19,709
- 146
<<
<< << you can't have an immigrant that interfaces with customers >>
I'd also like to know what the fvck you're talking about. What a fvck'in BS racist comment. >>
Not really. What if it's a German immigrant? Is that racist? >>
So what if it is a German immigrant (and from his so cali comment we both know what he meant)? It's still racist. If he had said "you can't have people who can't speak English very well working as waiters" there wouldn't be a problem, but he didn't. My soon-to-be wife is Hispanic. She's taking English classes to become fluent. Right now she isn't fluent enough to be a waitress, but eventually she will be. And when she is, she'll still be an immigrant. >>
Oh get off the high horse. My Ex-wife is Puerto Rican. Yes, we both know what he meant, and what he meant is that people who speak little to no English do not make good waiters. And yes, I'm from SoCal as well. It's a bitch trying to order a BigMac, much less a full meal when the damn counter help or waiter can't understand you, and you can't understand them.
<< giving YOU the power to pay, or not pay according to the level of service you receive. >>
Well, well, well... it seems that you're begining to argue my point--> The customer should be in full control of how much tip to leave and it should determined "according to the level of service you receive." This is ALL that I am arguing.
I should have the "power" to determine what I tip and not feel pressured to tip just because it is routine. If I get bad service, I have the power to not tip. If I get mediocre service, I have the power to not tip. And, when I get excellent service, I have the power to tip very well.
Am I missing something here? Seems pretty simple to me.
Epsil0n
BTW~ that comment about immigrants was uncalled for and offensive, how dissapointing.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,391
- 19,709
- 146
<<
<< giving YOU the power to pay, or not pay according to the level of service you receive. >>
Well, well, well... it seems that you're begining to argue my point--> The customer should be in full control of how much tip to leave and it should determined "according to the level of service you receive." This is ALL that I am arguing.
I should have the "power" to determine what I tip and not feel pressured to tip just because it is routine. If I get bad service, I have the power to not tip. If I get mediocre service, I have the power to not tip. And, when I get excellent service, I have the power to tip very well.
Am I missing something here? Seems pretty simple to me.
Epsil0n
BTW~ that comment about immigrants was uncalled for and offensive, how dissapointing.
>>Nice try twisting my words, but it wont fly.
The power to pay, is the same power your boss holds over you. If you get ACCEPTABLE (mediocre) service, the custom is 15%... Less for bad service, more for good. Tipping wait staff in US restaurants is NOT a reward or a little something extra. It is payment for services rendered, scaled by the level of service, with a baseline of 15% for average service. Why is that so hard to understand?
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
<< They get basicaly NO hourly wage (so low, it's inconsequential), with the unwritten agreement that YOU, the customer become their boss and are responsible for paying them for their services. This custom started so that YOU have control over thier pay giving YOU the power to pay, or not pay according to the level of service you receive. >>
they get what? $3 / hour? yeah that sucks but that to me is some sorta loop hole in the system for avoiding the minimum wage laws.
it seems also the trend is going higher and higher tips, so the wages get lower when the managers ntoice this. the end result is its purely an interaction between customer/server and one of them will probably get ripped off since the tip 'standard' will be high. the managers will sit pretty not having to pay your wage and only getting more money then usual off the tax on your tip. not a good scenario.
what annoys me most though is the obvious prejudism waiters have. I'm not very old, and I don't wear suits and gold watches, so many places I go the waitress make their analysis and conclude i will not tip high, so i am greeted with an attitude and lagging service. I still try to tip them nicely as I always do because it's nice to see the surprise on their face- but still... you should be nice to everyone!
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