Here Is What Louisiana Schoolchildren Learn About Evolution

Page 33 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
31
91
Having attended a catholic private schools from 4th grade through 12th...what's your problem here? The state requires the school teach a set of items. If they do that, they get state funding and the state doesn't dictate what religion they teach. Nor should they.

For the state to teach that a religious sect's interpretation is authoritative is to set a state religion, which sets that all others are second-class citizens.
Only science is reality-based and thus common to all regardless of individual belief. It is the only objective measure we have.
 

james7679

Member
Nov 27, 2012
69
0
66
You should have followed your own advice(bolded). There is no Micro/Macro Evolution, just Evolution.

1) Evolution has nothing to do with the existence/non-existence of "god". This is an old Strawman theist argument. Evolution is based on what the mountain of Evidence shows.

2) No one knows.

Uhhh,no.

Really??? LOL!! There is no Macro/Micro??? You have completely qualified everything you have to say.

1. Re-read what I said. The point was modern science beleives in a "big bang" and not a god, i.e. a starting point.

2. So if you don't have any proof to qualify your origins, don't bash other people's beliefs. I mean, have you heard/read some of the explanations of what the big bang was? Wow, those guys belong with Charlie MANSON! My point there is, your belief system is flawed as well. So since you're not speaking from absolute knowledge, you should not criricize someone for their beliefs. Or is it more fun for you to sit in judgement and laugh at all the stupid people?

That's good. I wish you well.




Pascal's wager?

You better be Catholic because otherwise what if you die and God expected you to confess your sins AND do good works AND believe in him?


Or am I off base with your reasoning?
Actually, yes sir. You are slightly off. Although, I guess if I were Catholic, you wouldn't be. I don't believe in works. I do, however, believe in a Creator.

Your knowledge of religion, at least the Catholic one, seems accurate. I believe that religion is a very disgusting and dangerous thing. The Bible never said that we were to devise our own opinions about it's meanings and create laws around it that would be a means of laying judgement on non believers. Religion is man made. Man is flawed.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Here's a huge difference between religion and science. In science, specifically cosmology, when you get to the end of the course and ask "So what was before the big bang and what caused the big bang" they say "I don't know". In religion when you see something you don't understand you just make up a bunch of gibberish about it.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Then to make matters worse when things are understood you keep being ignorant. It takes religion hundreds of years to catch up to the rest of society.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
Here's a huge difference between religion and science. In science, specifically cosmology, when you get to the end of the course and ask "So what was before the big bang and what caused the big bang" they say "I don't know". In religion when you see something you don't understand you just make up a bunch of gibberish about it.

Since space-time was created at the Big Bang...saying "before" Big Bang...dosn't make sense.

No space...no time...no sense.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
0
0
Well time is a human construct to explain things in a way that makes sense to our brains. That's really not the point of what I was saying though.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,648
2,863
136
False...time goes even if no human is around.

It's called space-time...because you cannot seperate the two in any meaningfull way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Time was a fact before humans evolved.

Precisely. They are very linked, the faster you travel through space the slower you travel through time. The way we measure time is a human invention but time itself is a fundamental part of the universe.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Having successfully laid the trap, let's see how this unfolds.



Here we see our first wild Bible Thumper attracted to the bait. Notice his ability to rationalize just about anything. Fascinating. We really are lucky to get a glimpse of him in his natural habitat.

I'm an atheist agnostic - and I don't see the point.

Also, ITT: Liberaltards see an article from a liberal website all about how they found 1 private/special/retard school that happened to be teaching with this; blames and shouts this like it's in every single school in Louisiana :rolleyes: Figures.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,102
5,640
126
Really??? LOL!! There is no Macro/Micro??? You have completely qualified everything you have to say.

1. Re-read what I said. The point was modern science beleives in a "big bang" and not a god, i.e. a starting point.

2. So if you don't have any proof to qualify your origins, don't bash other people's beliefs. I mean, have you heard/read some of the explanations of what the big bang was? Wow, those guys belong with Charlie MANSON! My point there is, your belief system is flawed as well. So since you're not speaking from absolute knowledge, you should not criricize someone for their beliefs. Or is it more fun for you to sit in judgement and laugh at all the stupid people?

That's good. I wish you well.





Actually, yes sir. You are slightly off. Although, I guess if I were Catholic, you wouldn't be. I don't believe in works. I do, however, believe in a Creator.

Your knowledge of religion, at least the Catholic one, seems accurate. I believe that religion is a very disgusting and dangerous thing. The Bible never said that we were to devise our own opinions about it's meanings and create laws around it that would be a means of laying judgement on non believers. Religion is man made. Man is flawed.

A "god" isn't a starting point. Show evidence of such a thing, then maybe someone will take it seriously in the Scientific Community. Until then, it is a non-answer.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
126
Really??? LOL!! There is no Macro/Micro??? You have completely qualified everything you have to say.
There is no meaningful difference between so-called "micro" and "macro" evolution. It's simply a difference of degree, like the difference between centimeters and kilometers.

1. Re-read what I said. The point was modern science beleives in a "big bang" and not a god, i.e. a starting point.
The big bang is the inference of our observations of an expanding universe. It makes no claims about whether or not anything or "nothing" exists "before" it. There are good reasons to believe that it is impossible for "nothing" to exist anywhere or at any time, however.

2. So if you don't have any proof to qualify your origins, don't bash other people's beliefs.
What origins?


I mean, have you heard/read some of the explanations of what the big bang was? Wow, those guys belong with Charlie MANSON!
Upon what basis do you liken the learned physicists to a violent criminal?

My point there is, your belief system is flawed as well. So since you're not speaking from absolute knowledge, you should not criricize someone for their beliefs.
There is no such thing as "absolute knowledge" when dealing with objective reality. There is, however, reasonably reliable knowledge that the universe and the earth have existed for billions of years, and that biological organisms are related via common anscestry.

Or is it more fun for you to sit in judgement and laugh at all the stupid people?
It isn't fun. In fact, it's sad because there are so many stupid people.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
Really??? LOL!! There is no Macro/Micro??? You have completely qualified everything you have to say.

1. Re-read what I said. The point was modern science beleives in a "big bang" and not a god, i.e. a starting point.

2. So if you don't have any proof to qualify your origins, don't bash other people's beliefs. I mean, have you heard/read some of the explanations of what the big bang was? Wow, those guys belong with Charlie MANSON! My point there is, your belief system is flawed as well. So since you're not speaking from absolute knowledge, you should not criricize someone for their beliefs. Or is it more fun for you to sit in judgement and laugh at all the stupid people?

Seems you have no knowledge of the big bang or what it even covers, how we came up with it and what our current theory says. Same with the theory of evolution. Why do you expect us to listen to anything you have to say when you show you don't even have the basic knowledge on the subject to have an informed opinion.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
For the state to teach that a religious sect's interpretation is authoritative is to set a state religion, which sets that all others are second-class citizens.
Only science is reality-based and thus common to all regardless of individual belief. It is the only objective measure we have.

For fucks sake, how many times do I have to say this... The state is NOT teaching this, no public schools in Louisiana are teaching this, it is a PRIVATE school that gets a very small chunk of taxpayer dollars due to the new voucher program.

Basically, some teachers or union members pissed at the voucher program went looking for the absolute worst thing that the public money was going to and this is what they found. If you send your child to this school chances are your already a batshit crazy nut.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Really??? LOL!! There is no Macro/Micro??? You have completely qualified everything you have to say.

1. Re-read what I said. The point was modern science beleives in a "big bang" and not a god, i.e. a starting point.

Of course it does. Everything that is ovservable in the universe has a starting point so its simply logical to believe that the universe has a starting point as well. Currently, the big bang theory is the best we idea we currently have but no one "believes" in it, they just think that its the best idea we currently have. As far as evolution, I guess I "believe" that evolution does in fact happen as much as I "believe" 1+1=2. After all, math must be a belief system too even though its absolutely true, right?

2. So if you don't have any proof to qualify your origins, don't bash other people's beliefs. I mean, have you heard/read some of the explanations of what the big bang was? Wow, those guys belong with Charlie MANSON! My point there is, your belief system is flawed as well. So since you're not speaking from absolute knowledge, you should not criricize someone for their beliefs. Or is it more fun for you to sit in judgement and laugh at all the stupid people?

Sigh..... One is a theory based on the best of our knowledge to date and one is something people read in a very old book. They are not on equal footing. It is absolutely possible that one, or both, are wrong. The difference is when science learns more they change the theories to fit the new knowledge. Religion rarely does and if they do it is usually long after science has proved it.
 
Last edited:

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Since space-time was created at the Big Bang...saying "before" Big Bang...dosn't make sense.

No space...no time...no sense.

Have we proved that there is an actual "force" or even such a "thing" as time? I haven't looked into it lately but always thought it was a relative thing that we made up as a "placeholder".
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,619
29,279
146
I guess a person who doesn't accept evolution doesn't have a legitmate highschool education.

Can't begin to tell you how full of stupid that statement is.

the statement is stupid to only those with very low standards of education.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Precisely. They are very linked, the faster you travel through space the slower you travel through time. The way we measure time is a human invention but time itself is a fundamental part of the universe.

The faster you move through space the slower someone else perceives you going through time. Regardless of your speed you still perceive time as going the exact same speed.

"Spacetime" is hardly proof that time is actually some force, it is a mathematical shortcut and helps us perceive things better. At least that is how I understand it, which in this case I readily admit that I could be wrong.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
126
Have we proved that there is an actual "force" or even such a "thing" as time? I haven't looked into it lately but always thought it was a relative thing that we made up as a "placeholder".

Time isn't a "thing," per se. It's an abstraction. It is a coordinate system like latitude and longitude. We use it to make reference to things we observe in shared reality.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,107
2,158
136
I'm an atheist agnostic - and I don't see the point.

Also, ITT: Liberaltards see an article from a liberal website all about how they found 1 private/special/retard school that happened to be teaching with this; blames and shouts this like it's in every single school in Louisiana :rolleyes: Figures.


Did they actually confirm that even one school was doing this? I did not see it in the original OP.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Sigh..... One is a theory based on the best of our knowledge to date and one is something people read in a very old book. They are not on equal footing. It is absolutely possible that one, or both, are wrong. The difference is when science learns more they change the theories to fit the new knowledge. Religion rarely does and if they do it is usually long after science has proved it.

I think that was his point.

If you know ABSOLUTELY, without a shred of doubt, then you can critisize other's beliefs, is what I gathered.

There is absolute knowlege in life, though, with some things.

For someone to say that God absolutely doesn't exist, that's herculean claim that would need some absolute evidence. I know science isn't out to attack belief in God, however, but you have some who believe such a thing and make such claims.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
Of course it does. Everything that is ovservable in the universe has a starting point so its simply logical to believe that the universe has a starting point as well. Currently, the big bang theory is the best we idea we currently have but no one "believes" in it, they just think that its the best idea we currently have. As far as evolution, I guess I "believe" that evolution does in fact happen as much as I "believe" 1+1=2. After all, math must be a belief system too even though its absolutely true, right?

So.. they "think" it happened, but don't believe it did?

That sounds reasonable to me, honestly.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
As with all analogies it isn't perfect. I'm only talking about the principle.
And indeed, sometimes when you go down an evolutionary path, it's a dead end. The vast majority of all life that has ever existed is now dead - and that's the case when you look either at individuals or entire species. Things that suck at surviving don't always get much chance to be studied extensively, because they're too busy ceasing to exist.


And some bacteria have DNA that is much longer than ours.
I wouldn't doubt it.


These bacterial adaptations result in less viable organisms when the temporary pressure is removed.
In some cases, yes - if they result in a drain on the life form that inhibits its ability to survive. Our muscles will atrophy if not used regularly. Muscles are expensive to maintain, in terms of energy consumption. In an environment where we were frequently unsure of where our next meal would be, there was benefit in reducing resource requirements whenever reasonably possible. That's one adaptation that showed up that improved chances for survival, just as our ability to store fat when excess calories were available.
And we've got leftovers. Our eyes have remnants of a nictitating membrane. It may simply be in the process of slowly going away, or it might just stay there, because I very much doubt that it's a significant drain on our survival ability. (Evidently, our other survival skills made the lack of such a protective shield less of a problem.)



The issue I have with this is that from 0 (self replicating molecule) to now there had to be a lot of stuff added to make life on the planet as diverse as it is. At one point there weren't lungs, hearts, wings, cell membranes etc etc etc. There needed to be these positive additions in order for us to get where we are today with some neutral/negative changes thrown in for good measure. What we see in bacterial adaptation is almost always the loss of an ability which because of new environmental pressures gets selected for and eventually the ability is lost in the population completely.

I'm not expecting miracles in short periods of time, all I'm saying is that we need more than what we have observed in almost all of these cases to occur or the complexities of living systems simply cannot be created.

There is a "nylon bug" that comes much closer however.
Yeah, no doubt there had to be a lot of additions. You also have a laboratory the size of a planet to work in, along with an injection of trillions upon trillions of watts of energetic photons, an atmosphere with lots of reactive oxygen, lots of liquid water being continually stirred by thermal imbalances, and a long long time.
Heart, lungs, etc: These things also didn't just arise fully completed. It's a continuous process, all filtered out by the simple ability to survive. Anything that would give a better chance of surviving improved the odds of that benefit being perpetuated. It didn't guarantee it, but it helped.



There is better evidence than bacterial resistance for "mud to jud" (just made that up :awe:) evolution out there. I find the bacteria case overblown and a hand overplayed imho.
Why is it a problem, or "overplayed," to look at bacteria? They've been here a long time, and they're arguably the most successful kind of life on the planet. They're everywhere. A great deal of other life is now thoroughly dependent upon them.
One reason that they're nice for biological studies is simply because they reproduce quickly, giving many chances for genetic mutations to show up. Besides that, you're not going to get many activists pitching Save the Microbes campaigns. If you're done with your culture, bleach it and dispose of it. Want more of them? Start a breeding program in a little petri dish.





Pascal's wager?

You better be Catholic because otherwise what if you die and God expected you to confess your sins AND do good works AND believe in him?


Or am I off base with your reasoning?
And you'd better believe in all the available gods, just to be safe.

Though you'd better get a good lawyer, because some religions, such as Christianity, forbid you from following other gods.



I think that was his point.

If you know ABSOLUTELY, without a shred of doubt, then you can critisize other's beliefs, is what I gathered.

There is absolute knowlege in life, though, with some things.

For someone to say that God absolutely doesn't exist, that's herculean claim that would need some absolute evidence. I know science isn't out to attack belief in God, however, but you have some who believe such a thing and make such claims.
To say it again, proof doesn't work that way.
Concerning "absolute evidence": There's the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" thing too. So we've got an infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent, infinitely loving deity. That's going to need some infinitely extraordinary evidence. Thus far, I've only ever seen extraordinarily circumstantial evidence.

Then there's the matter of practicality. I can say that there's a very good chance that the Sun will not get whacked tomorrow by an absurdly-energetic particle and implode into a black hole. Could it happen? I suppose, perhaps. The odds against it are just absolutely insane though, so I feel quite safe in saying with certainty that it won't happen. And I still think that that scenario is more likely than this "god" entity.
 
Last edited:

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
To say it again, proof doesn't work that way.
Concerning "absolute evidence": There's the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" thing too. So we've got an infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent, infinitely loving deity. That's going to need some infinitely extraordinary evidence. Thus far, I've only ever seen extraordinarily circumstantial evidence.

Then there's the matter of practicality. I can say that there's a very good chance that the Sun will not get whacked tomorrow by an absurdly-energetic particle and implode into a black hole. Could it happen? I suppose, perhaps. The odds against it are just absolutely insane though, so I feel quite safe in saying with certainty that it won't happen. And I still think that that scenario is more likely than this "god" entity.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

So are you saying that evolution or even the Big Bang for that matter, aren't extraordinary claims?

I'd like to say that the way those are presented as fact, and by the point science makes by saying "without evloution we wouldn't have modern science", or "to reject evolution is to reject reality". To me, those are extraordinary claims. Why? Because no other explanation is really offered, and not to mention ID is rejected in the scientific world.

To me, they're saying this explains our "existence".
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,102
5,640
126
Initially they are extraordinary, until the mountains of evidence show that they really are not.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
They still are.

One of two things happened: Evloution NEVER happened with humans, or we're smart enough to change our enviorment to interrupt the "natural process", hence, we've stopped evolution.

Humans can now alter their envoirment more than ever before... to the point where it may kills us off, and truth doesn't go backwards, so we may have stopped it.

It's funny looking at scientists scurry to explain why we've stopped evolving or will stop. It's like watching a movie!
 
Last edited: