Herbal Zoloft?

[apoppin]

From Encarta:


<< In small doses nicotine serves as a nerve stimulant, entering the bloodstream and promoting the flow of adrenaline, a stimulating hormone. It speeds up the heartbeat and may cause it to become irregular. It also raises the blood pressure and reduces the appetite, and it may cause nausea and vomiting. The known health risks associated with cigarette smoking, such as damage to the lungs and lung cancer, are thought to be caused by other components of cigarettes such as tars and other by-products of smoking, and by the irritating effects of smoke on the lung tissue. Addiction to smoking is caused by nicotine itself. >>



It seems that there may be some legitimate medicinal uses for nicotine. It does not cause cancer - smoking tobacco does - although it is by itself addictive.

and i was kidding about the 'hurt yourself' quip

 

[rahvin]

<< I think I will have a very hard time explaining this to you since you appear to worship at the altar of "modern" Western Medicine.

What you fail to realize that a very large percentage of Western medicine is based on herbal remedies. >>



Wow, you make this easy. If it wasn't clear enough the first time, here it is again. Read it slower this time.



<< What you may fail to realize is that substances that have the actual ability to effect people and are known to the herbal community have already been researched, purified and processed into the prescription drugs we use. Things like willow bark tea yielded asprin, deadly nightshade, saw palmeto and others have yeilded the drugs we use today. >>





<< How old is Western medicine? People have been treated successfully for many thousands of years with proven herbal remedies. The same powers of observation have been part of the human experience for years. They have observed animals using certain herbs for ailments and have been able to get very consistent results in humans with them. >>



The only real proof in this world is a double blind scientific study. And that is something you can right in you little notebook of life. Observation != knowledge, observation can lead to knowledge with the appropriate method to seperate fact from fiction.



<< Tell me, what are the side-effects of YOUR medicine? >>



Mild hemophillia in a controlled dosage situation. It doesn't effect me as severly as others though I have a stronger tendency to clot so I consider the coumadin as more of a balancer.



<< Did you read the booklet that came with your prescription? >>



Why yes I did, I also spent an hour with a coumadin therapist being instructed on what to expect and look out for.



<< Do you wanna talk about "dangerous"? >>



Sure.



<< Sure, it IS dangerous to mix or take herbs without certain knowledge. And there are many dangerous drug/herb interactions. >>



So who hands out this information? The Herb fairy? Where do you look to find all the drug/herb or herb/herb, or genetic/herb interactions? Where is source that tells me if I take "ginko" what the side effects will be? As you said above, herbs contain drugs, how much drugs? what are the interactions? What else is in the herb? Just because it grows in the ground doesn't mean it's safer.



<< But don't compare herbs to witchcraft. That IS ignorant. There is a HUGE base of information - for example - in Traditional Chinese Medicine that is safe, effective and cost effective. Western medicine has not even scratched the surface here. >>



What I find amazing is that you think any billion dollar drug company is gonna sit around going "gosh billy bob, the chinesse are using powdered rinocerous horn to combat impotence whatever are we gonna do about it" shows your ignorance of western medicine and science in general. What you may not realize is that drug companies spend millions of dollars every year sending representatives to remote parts of the world to collect native "medicines" for analyzing in a controlled environment to PROVE whether it actually does something or if it's all placebo effect.



<< Now let me give you a personal example . . . I was badly injured in two whiplash rear-end auto accidents. Herniated and bulging disks which are untreatable in Western medicine except by operation and analgesics. My MD prescribed Vicodin (every 4 hours) and Ultram (every 6 hours - damned if they know how it works or what it's long term effects are) and 3,200mg daily of Ibuprofin (guaranteed liver failure and kidney shutdown if I took it long enough). My MD is just willing to continue writing those prescriptions (sure, she said let's do blood tests so we can change my meds to other [read: equally dangerous] analgesics).

I opted to move back to Honolulu January-April this year to get treated by my old Traditional Chinese Medicine master-herbalist/acupuncturist. This man is dean of the Oriental Medicine college there and has been practicing for 36 years (he is from Mainland China). Currently, I am having NO pain and I haven't taken any painkillers for months (nor am I continuing acupuncture OR herbs). >>



Great story. Question, did you know people have been cured of "incurable" cancer with sugar pills? Do you know what a placebo is?



<< You can rail all you want against herbs. Some of us know better. >>



Yep some of you do "know" better.

 

[vi edit]

I never said that meds didn't work. I am saying that they should be a last resort when other, less harmful means of treatment aren't working.

 

[vi edit]

<< So who hands out this information? The Herb fairy? Where do you look to find all the drug/herb or herb/herb, or genetic/herb interactions? Where is source that tells me if I take "ginko" what the side effects will be? As you said above, herbs contain drugs, how much drugs? what are the interactions? What else is in the herb? Just because it grows in the ground doesn't mean it's safer. >>



Talk to a pharmacist. My fiancee is required to take a "herbal supplement and interactions" class as part of her Doctor of Pharmacy degree.

 

[apoppin]

<< But who are you gonna believe, scientists who have been researching the drug for many more years >>


Am I going to believe the drug companies? Megabux business? NO!

And I am not condemning chemical antidepressants. There is a place for them with seriously depressed patients.

I am condemning the easy way doctors pass them out like placebos. My (former) doctor did not mention Paxil's side effects to me.

What I am suggesting - is that it (usually) doesn't hurt to try EXERCISE (proven). HEALTHY DIET (proven), and REGULAR SLEEP (proven) before reaching for a bottle of chemicals. Counseling can also be beneficial.

 

[Nocturnal]

<< I never said that meds didn't work. I am saying that they should be a last resort when other, less harmful means of treatment aren't working. >>



yes, this is usually what doctors offer.

unless YOU are in a rush to get it over with, they usually tell you your options. you have your psychotherapy, and then whatever else they want to try with you, exercise, eating better, etc, etc, then they lastly (usually) give you the offer of medicine.

i myself suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. ive had it for about five years now. ive never taken any type of ssri YET. if therapy does not help it im going to resort to ssri's. ill let you all know if it works for me.

thanks!

 

[Nocturnal]

<<

<< But who are you gonna believe, scientists who have been researching the drug for many more years >>


Am I going to believe the drug companies? Megabux business? NO!

And I am not condemning chemical antidepressants. There is a place for them with seriously depressed patients.

I am condemning the easy way doctors pass them out like placebos. My (former) doctor did not mention Paxil's side effects to me.

What I am suggesting - is that it (usually) doesn't hurt to try EXERCISE (proven). HEALTHY DIET (proven), and REGULAR SLEEP (proven) before reaching for a bottle of chemicals. Counseling can also be beneficial. >>



was this a regular doctor or a psychologist? i would never go to a gp to get diagnosed with depression. you could've asked if there was any side effects of the drug. you could have looked it up online.

oh yeah i agree with you on the exercise, and all that other stuff before the meds. definately. like i said in the above post, doctors (psychologists/psychiatrists <- only these can prescribe meds) usually give you those kinds of options before you take the dive into medicine.

 

[vi edit]

<< you have your psychotherapy, and then whatever else they want to try with you, exercise >>



Not sure if you *really* meant to use psychotherapy in that sentence. But if you did, I equate psychotherapy with Frued, and I equate Frued with rambling lunatic with more mental problems than his patients

 

[Nocturnal]

<<

<< you have your psychotherapy, and then whatever else they want to try with you, exercise >>



Not sure if you *really* meant to use psychotherapy in that sentence. But if you did, I equate psychotherapy with Frued, and I equate Frued with rambling lunatic with more mental problems than his patients >>



there is a difference between psychotherapy and cognitive behavioral therapy.

cbt is the change the way youre thinking, or change your thoughts.

psychotherapy would be just the regular doc/pateint chit chat about things and get it all out.

 

[apoppin]

<< The only real proof in this world is a double blind scientific study. And that is something you can right in you little notebook of life. Observation != knowledge, observation can lead to knowledge with the appropriate method to seperate fact from fiction. >>



And some of these studies have been seriously flawed. Especially where huge money is involved.

You can go on believing what you want to as I will. My trust in herbs is based on sound scientific research also. And just as you can get an irresponsible MD, you can get hurt by an unknowledgable herbalist.

My experience was anecdotal, just as your is.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[vi edit]

<< psychotherapy would be just the regular doc/pateint chit chat about things and get it all out. >>



Yeh, and I personally think that about all psychotherapy helps to do is line the therapists pockets

 

[Nocturnal]

<<

<< psychotherapy would be just the regular doc/pateint chit chat about things and get it all out. >>



Yeh, and I personally think that about all psychotherapy helps to do is line the therapists pockets >>



ahh, i c. yeah i could agree with you on that. thats the way i kinda feel about my therapist right now. she does more talking then i do in a way. lol. but we try to stray away from psychotherapy. more or less trying to practice some cbt.

 

[Chooco]

one question about obsessive compulsive disorder......if you have sex, do you have to do it 3 times?

guy who told me to bang my head: i said MEDICINAL purposes lol, somehow i don't think taking pesticides into my body is helping lol

people have also been cured by faith healing (placebo), faith in medicine is actually very powerful. placebo effect can put cancer into remission, regenerate nerves and do things you can't possibly imagine. the only problem is that if you know it's a placebo, it won't work so this is 1 case where the smart people get screwed in the end

 

[apoppin]

<< was this a regular doctor or a psychologist? i would never go to a gp to get diagnosed with depression. you could've asked if there was any side effects of the drug. you could have looked it up online. >>


It was a regular MD. I didn't got to get diagnosed for depression, I went for painkillers for a herniated disk in my neck. I mentioned i felt depressed and she whipped out her prescription pad for Paxil.

I DID look it up online. That's why I simply refused to take it. When I asked her if 3,200 mg of Ibuprofin might be a bit much, she replied "it's below the danger threshold".

I firmly believe in Western medicine and MDs for diagnosis. When it comes to treatment, I will consider options outside their recommendations and make up my own mind what to do.

 

[Nocturnal]

<<

<< was this a regular doctor or a psychologist? i would never go to a gp to get diagnosed with depression. you could've asked if there was any side effects of the drug. you could have looked it up online. >>


It was a regular MD. I didn't got to get diagnosed for depression, I went for painkillers for a herniated disk in my neck. I mentioned i felt depressed and she whipped out her prescription pad for Paxil.

I DID look it up online. That's why I simply refused to take it. When I asked her if 3,200 mg of Ibuprofin might be a bit much, she replied "it's below the danger threshold".

I firmly believe in Western medicine and MDs for diagnosis. When it comes to treatment, I will consider options outside their recommendations and make up my own mind what to do. >>




GP's will just whip it out of you say that kinda stuff. Next time I would've just told her "hey doc I dont need this, thanks anyways" and just never took the damn thing lol.

 

[rahvin]

<< And some of these studies have been seriously flawed. Especially where huge money is involved. >>



Show me a flawed Double Blind study. You will have better luck searching with the words FDA phase 3 clinical trial.



<< Belief in Alternative Medicine
Alternative medicine is another concern. As used here, alternative medicine refers to all treatments that have not been proven effective using scientific methods. A scientist's view of the situation appeared in a recent book (Park 2000b):

Between homeopathy and herbal therapy lies a bewildering array of untested and unregulated treatments, all labeled alternative by their proponents. Alternative seems to define a culture rather than a field of medicine?a culture that is not scientifically demanding. It is a culture in which ancient traditions are given more weight than biological science, and anecdotes are preferred over clinical trials. Alternative therapies steadfastly resist change, often for centuries or even millennia, unaffected by scientific advances in the understanding of physiology or disease. Incredible explanations invoking modern physics are sometimes offered for how alternative therapies might work, but there seems to be little interest in testing these speculations scientifically.[59]

In response to the 2001 NSF survey, an overwhelming majority (88 percent) agreed that "there are some good ways of treating sickness that medical science does not recognize." (See appendix table 7-58.) The American Medical Association defines alternative medicine as any diagnostic method, treatment, or therapy that is "neither taught widely in U.S. medical schools nor generally available in U.S. hospitals." However, at least 60 percent of U.S. medical schools devote classroom time to the teaching of alternative therapies, generating controversy within the scientific community. Critics have also been quick to note that one of these therapies, "therapeutic touch," was taught at more than 100 colleges and universities in 75 countries before the practice was debunked by a nine-year-old child for a school science project (Rosa 1998).

Nevertheless, the popularity of alternative medicine appears to be increasing. A recent study documented a 50 percent increase in expenditures and a 25 percent increase in the use of alternative therapies between 1990 and 1997 (Eisenberg et al. 1998) A large minority of Americans (42 percent) used alternative therapies in 1997 and spent a total of at least $27 billion on them. In addition, the authors of the study reported that the use of alternative therapies was: at least as popular in other industrialized nations as it was in the United States; more popular among women (49 percent) than among men (38 percent) and less popular among African Americans (33 percent) than among members of other racial groups (44.5 percent); andhigher among those who had attended college, among those who had incomes above $50,000, and among those who lived in the western United States.

Furthermore, among the 16 therapies included in the study, the largest increases between 1990 and 1997 were in the use of herbal medicine (a 380 percent increase), massage, megavitamins, self-help groups, folk remedies, energy healing, and homeopathy. [60]

Among those who reported using energy healing, the most frequently cited technique involved the use of magnets. In 2001, NSF survey respondents were asked whether or not they had heard of magnetic therapy, and if they had, whether they thought that it was very scientific, sort of scientific, or not all scientific. A substantial majority of survey respondents (77 percent) had heard of magnetic therapy. Among all who had heard of this treatment, 14 percent said it was very scientific and another 54 percent said it was sort of scientific. Only 25 percent of those surveyed answered correctly, that is, that it is not at all scientific.[61] These percentages vary by level of formal education. That is, among those who had not completed high school, only 18 percent chose the not-at-all-scientific response, as did 22 percent of the high school graduates, compared with 35 percent of the college graduates. Among those classified as attentive to S&T, 34 percent answered correctly. (See appendix table 7-59.) >>



Yep we take our chances, at least I know my chances were proved in an impartial double blind.

 

[Nocturnal]

<< one question about obsessive compulsive disorder......if you have sex, do you have to do it 3 times?

guy who told me to bang my head: i said MEDICINAL purposes lol, somehow i don't think taking pesticides into my body is helping lol

people have also been cured by faith healing (placebo), faith in medicine is actually very powerful. placebo effect can put cancer into remission, regenerate nerves and do things you can't possibly imagine. the only problem is that if you know it's a placebo, it won't work so this is 1 case where the smart people get screwed in the end >>



no, ocd is much worse then that. its not fun like that at all.

 

[apoppin]

<< guy who told me to bang my head: i said MEDICINAL purposes lol, somehow i don't think taking pesticides into my body is helping lol >>



You missed my next post where I said I was kidding.

And I DID show that nicotine may have some legitimate medical uses - I remember hearing about this but can't find a link. Nicotine doesn't cause cancer, smoking tobacco does.

 

[apoppin]

Let's see, acupuncture is an alternative therapy that is current recommended by many medical doctors.

Chiropractic was considered "alternative" by the medical establishment and they fought and lobbied against it for years.

Homeopathy is alternative in America but very mainstream in Europe and other countrties.

By closing your mind to SOME alternatives, you may be missing out.

I am not denying that there may be a lot of "snake oil" treatments out there. If I wait for a "scientific" double-blind study that may never come because there is no money in it for the drug companies, I may be missing out on the best and most cost-effective remedy.

And you are saying scientific studies cannot be flawed? Have you missed the 60 Minutes and other exposes on the Pharmeceutical industry?

 

[apoppin]

<< GP's will just whip it out of you say that kinda stuff. Next time I would've just told her "hey doc I dont need this, thanks anyways" and just never took the damn thing lol. >>



I wanted to be extra nice to her since my insurance settlement depended on her reports.

I told her later that I didn't need or take the Paxil and she became offended that I'd question her. Of course I didn't take the Paxil.