Help with SFF Mini-ITX build

[SP33Demon]

I'm looking to build a Mini-ITX SFF for speed in compiling code for work. However, I want it to be portable like a laptop but with better performance and upgrade options. I use an i3-2xxx CPU on the laptop at work w/ 8 GB and it is so dam slow compiling my code. Graphics isn't a big deal but would like to have it maximized. Money isn't a big deal but would like to keep it $1200 or less.

Here are the requirements in order of importance:

1) CPU/mobo - Bought the Intel 3570K ($170) for and Asrock Z77E-ITX mobo ($105) - preferably quadcore. Intel or AMD, I don't care, whichever is cheapest for the mobo/CPU but gives the best performance. Bonus points for lower power.

2) RAM - bought the Crucial Ballistix Sport Low Profiles ($80), the highest amount possible since my code IDE is a hog.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148663
The new Crucial Ballistix Sport seems to be a good fit since they're low Profiles. 2X8GB = 16GB

3) SFF Case - bought the Antec ($70)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129080
Antec ISK 300-150, size: 12.90" x 8.70" x 3.80", 150W PSU

Not sure if those PSUs can be replaced, and if they even make PSUs in larger sizes than that? A quadcore CPU may need more juice than that but just guessing.

4) Hard Drive - bought Intel SSD 240GB 520 Series ($178)

5) Optical DVD drive - bought the Slim ($27) - I'd like to have one to read CDs to load software/play music but optional.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151261 seems to be the standard for slims.

6) Sound - Bonus points for an aftermarket option but not at the top of the list although I sometimes listen to music while working.

7) GPU - not very important. Bonus points if there is a decent upgradeable gaming option, but overall optional.

Misc. - Cooling Upgrades - Bought 2 Arctic Cooling PWM F8 80mm ($13) to use as side fans, Noctua NH-L9i ($49) low profile HSF, and Scythe Kama PWM 92mm ($10) to use on top of the Noctua.

Edit - Updated with components I'm going with so far. Total so far is $702 shipped and with additional aftermarket fans and cables, it will be under $700 and still have the option to add a Graphics card if desired. This seems to be way better than any laptop in that's it's almost the same in portability but gives me way more power and upgrade options. Any thoughts or recommendations so far?

 

[teh impaler]

3) SFF Case, I figured mini-ITX has the best options on the market without compromising #1 and #2. If mATX is better, then sure.

Some case sizes that I liked from other thread suggestions that would fit in my backpack:
a) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811108222
IN WIN BQ656.AD80TBL, size: 7.60" x 3.00" x 8.90", 80W PSU
b) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129080
Antec ISK 300-150, size: 12.90" x 8.70" x 3.80", 150W PSU

Not sure if those PSUs can be replaced, and if they even make PSUs in larger sizes than that? A quadcore CPU may need more juice than that but just guessing.

I can vouch for the Antec ISK300. Its a great case, if you can put up with a cramped interior during the build. The stock CPU coolers fit as well.

The PSU is an SFF PSU, Im sure there are replacements for it. Though it depends on what CPU you go with, some should be ok with 150W.

 

[TheStu]

You might want to ping a mod and ask them to move this to General Hardware, also the budget you laid out, do you need a windows license or monitor?

 

[SP33Demon]

You might want to ping a mod and ask them to move this to General Hardware, also the budget you laid out, do you need a windows license or monitor?

Nope, no windows license or monitor. I have those laying around.

This is specifically for SFF so not sure why it should be moved. There are tons of other SFF build advice threads here, do a search. Unless you mean you think I'll get more feedback in Gen Hardware?

 

[TheStu]

Nope, no windows license or monitor. I have those laying around.

This is specifically for SFF so not sure why it should be moved. There are tons of other SFF build advice threads here, do a search. Unless you mean you think I'll get more feedback in Gen Hardware?

I think that you'll get more feedback on a build thread in General Hardware since that is where people put their build threads. You are asking for advice on how to best build a computer, right?

 

[SP33Demon]

I think that you'll get more feedback on a build thread in General Hardware since that is where people put their build threads. You are asking for advice on how to best build a computer, right?

Yeah, mainly just the case+PSU/CPU-mobo for a very small portable rig. Maybe someone can move it then.

 

[philipma1957]

you don't have to build a machine buy this


http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC...-intel-core-i7

pull one hdd drop in an ssd buy 16gb ram for 60 bucks or so.

then run windows in bootcamp or am I making a wrong assumption that windows in bootcamp will work be what you want.


I have 3 itx builds all of them use 16gb ram so does the mini build.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Mac Minis are great little boxes, but they use laptop CPUs. That's a 2.0 GHz mobile i7 instead of a 3.4 GHz desktop CPU. Minis also have no optical drive.

 

[SP33Demon]

Mac Minis are great little boxes, but they use laptop CPUs. That's a 2.0 GHz mobile i7 instead of a 3.4 GHz desktop CPU. Minis also have no optical drive.

Yep, it would take forever to compile code in that. My DROID RAZR MAXX would be faster, lol.

 

[SP33Demon]

I can vouch for the Antec ISK300. Its a great case, if you can put up with a cramped interior during the build. The stock CPU coolers fit as well.

The PSU is an SFF PSU, Im sure there are replacements for it. Though it depends on what CPU you go with, some should be ok with 150W.

Thanks for the info man, this is probably the case I'll go with since it should fit nicely into my backpack.
CPU, going for the i5 3570K (around $170) - which is around 77W.

Ok now just need to find a mobo. A guy on newegg did this build with this case:

ASRock H77M-ITX LGA 1155 Intel H77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Mini ITX mobo
Intel Core i7-3770S Ivy Bridge 3.1GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 65W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000
Sony Optiarc Black 12.7mm Slot Blu-ray Writer SATA BD-5850H-01
G.SKILL Ares Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Plextor M3 Pro Series PX-256M3P 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC 7mm Internal Solid State Drive (Boot)
Travelstar 5K1000 0J22413 1TB 5400 RPM 8MB Cache 2.5" SATA 6.0Gb (Data)
PLANAR PXL2430MW (997-6399-00) Black 23.6" 5ms HDMI LED-Backlit Multi-Touch Widescreen LCD Monitor
Windows 8
Office 2013
Boots in under 10 seconds; shutdown in 3.

So going to check out the ASRock and other LGA 1155 mobos.

 

[Zap]

Thread moved to General Hardware.

I have very similar hardware so here is Zap's Expert Opinion™.

Good choices on RAM, CPU, case/PSU, SSD, ODD. Onboard sound/video are fine.

The PSU is upgradable if you are willing to mod, but even as is, will power your system fine. The actual PSU is proprietary sized due to the fan, but not counting the fan it is similar to a short 1U PSU, AKA what some used to market as "flex ATX." Something like this Seasonic SS-250SU would physically fit in the area, but you would need to mod it somehow for the power input. See how this guy did the PSU swap.

I would suggest upgrading to the ASRock Z77E-ITX motherboard ($145@Micro center, or $105 after combo pricing). The reason is full voltage and clock control. Is your compiling single threaded? Dual? More? You can customize the turbo modes to favor the number of threads and basically overclock it a bit, even on the stock cooler. Speaking of threading, if your compiler supports more than 4 threads, find out if it can benefit from Hyperthreading. If so, the extra $100 for a Core i7-3770K may be worth it, and you will still be under the $1200 budget.

Can't use more than the stock cooler in that case unless you mod the power cord inside the case because it covers the CPU area, but you should be able to overclock a bit while undervolting with a negative voltage offset using that motherboard. Since you seem to be so CPU limited, even a couple hundred MHz while using the stock cooler may be worth it.

I carry my ISK 300 in a notebook messenger style bag. :thumbsup:

 

[mfenn]

I would suggest upgrading to the ASRock Z77E-ITX motherboard ($145@Micro center, or $105 after combo pricing). The reason is full voltage and clock control. Is your compiling single threaded? Dual? More?

Most reasonable build systems have the option to parallelize the build process up to any arbitrary number of processes. With a large code base, this can give you significant benefits adding more cores.

 

[SP33Demon]

Thread moved to General Hardware.

I have very similar hardware so here is Zap's Expert Opinion™.

Good choices on RAM, CPU, case/PSU, SSD, ODD. Onboard sound/video are fine.

The PSU is upgradable if you are willing to mod, but even as is, will power your system fine. The actual PSU is proprietary sized due to the fan, but not counting the fan it is similar to a short 1U PSU, AKA what some used to market as "flex ATX." Something like this Seasonic SS-250SU would physically fit in the area, but you would need to mod it somehow for the power input. See how this guy did the PSU swap.

I would suggest upgrading to the ASRock Z77E-ITX motherboard ($145@Micro center, or $105 after combo pricing). The reason is full voltage and clock control. Is your compiling single threaded? Dual? More? You can customize the turbo modes to favor the number of threads and basically overclock it a bit, even on the stock cooler. Speaking of threading, if your compiler supports more than 4 threads, find out if it can benefit from Hyperthreading. If so, the extra $100 for a Core i7-3770K may be worth it, and you will still be under the $1200 budget.

Can't use more than the stock cooler in that case unless you mod the power cord inside the case because it covers the CPU area, but you should be able to overclock a bit while undervolting with a negative voltage offset using that motherboard. Since you seem to be so CPU limited, even a couple hundred MHz while using the stock cooler may be worth it.

I carry my ISK 300 in a notebook messenger style bag. :thumbsup:

Hey Zap, thanks for the great advice! I went with the 3570K and the Z77E-ITX mobo combo at microcenter! Also, the Ballistix low profiles from Newegg.

Regarding the compiling, there are 3rd party compilers that just came out a couple of months ago that are multi-threaded but the main IDE I use is not. So I may do some testing with the 3rd party once I get this built! If it's a huge diff, I'll just sell the 3570K and upgrade.

Did you use any aftermarket fans or the single Antec is enough, and did you upgrade the cheap Enermax? Great pics of your little Lan rig!

Thanks for the undervolt advice, I'm sure I'll be asking you more about that soon! Yes, squeezing out extra performance is probably worth it, especially if going with a K and I'll want to know how to customize that turbo!

You said the onboard graphics i.e. integrated Intel graphics HD 4000 is enough... I don't do gaming, but if it could do gaming that would be even cooler.

I'll check out the link to the PSU mod, I may not even need it though (/crossing fingers). Maybe if a graphics card is added or another fan? I'm ok with whatever gets the job done and if the stock PSU is good enough, then cool.

Very happy with the $630 so far for this size and processing power. That leaves a lot for any aftermarket mods and maybe even a new monitor! Way cheaper than any laptop too.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

You can do SOME gaming, my brothers laptops HD 3000 (not the same but still) can play CSS, StarCraft, and TF2 just fine.

 

[Zap]

Regarding the compiling, there are 3rd party compilers that just came out a couple of months ago that are multi-threaded but the main IDE I use is not.

Great! You can customize the turbo function in BIOS so that single threads will overclock significantly.

Did you use any aftermarket fans or the single Antec is enough, and did you upgrade the cheap Enermax?

"Cheap" Enermax 80mm fan is actually a pretty decent unit. It just happened to be on sale, but usually sells for around twice what I paid (even online). If you want matching fans, you can buy an Antec 80mm Tri Cool and the case will even have a place in the back to mount the speed selector switch. The fan it comes with is like that, and the case supports two fans with two speed selector switches.

IMO no, single fan is NOT enough for this case. It appears that I can run two fans really low RPM and get better airflow/temps/noise than one fan at higher RPM.

You said the onboard graphics i.e. integrated Intel graphics HD 4000 is enough... I don't do gaming, but if it could do gaming that would be even cooler.

Many people have done gaming with HD 3000, and HD 4000 is I think around 50% faster. Basically less demanding games with graphics turned down will run just fine. I've played League of Legends on HD 3000, and my wife played Diablo III and World of Warcraft on her notebook with HD 3000.

I'll check out the link to the PSU mod, I may not even need it though (/crossing fingers). Maybe if a graphics card is added or another fan? I'm ok with whatever gets the job done and if the stock PSU is good enough, then cool.

I ran stock 150W PSU with the Radeon 6670 and two case fans, with the quad core 2500K.

Without overclocking the 3570K should take a bit less power, and you should be able to get a bit of overclocking while undervolted (which uses less power/creates less heat). For graphics card I think the Radeon 7750 uses a few watts less than the 6670, and is much faster. I've seen around 4 different 7750 in low profile.

 

[SP33Demon]

Great! You can customize the turbo function in BIOS so that single threads will overclock significantly.



"Cheap" Enermax 80mm fan is actually a pretty decent unit. It just happened to be on sale, but usually sells for around twice what I paid (even online). If you want matching fans, you can buy an Antec 80mm Tri Cool and the case will even have a place in the back to mount the speed selector switch. The fan it comes with is like that, and the case supports two fans with two speed selector switches.

IMO no, single fan is NOT enough for this case. It appears that I can run two fans really low RPM and get better airflow/temps/noise than one fan at higher RPM.



Many people have done gaming with HD 3000, and HD 4000 is I think around 50% faster. Basically less demanding games with graphics turned down will run just fine. I've played League of Legends on HD 3000, and my wife played Diablo III and World of Warcraft on her notebook with HD 3000.



I ran stock 150W PSU with the Radeon 6670 and two case fans, with the quad core 2500K.

Without overclocking the 3570K should take a bit less power, and you should be able to get a bit of overclocking while undervolted (which uses less power/creates less heat). For graphics card I think the Radeon 7750 uses a few watts less than the 6670, and is much faster. I've seen around 4 different 7750 in low profile.

Zap, thanks for all the valuable info! I will hold off on the video card now. For 80mm fans, I'm probably going to go with something with PWM control like dual Noctua's.

One thing that is intriguing to me - is there a low profile SFF 120mm HSF that will be compatible with this? For example:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=368

Will there be clearance for an 82mm tall X 140 X 140 length and width? A 120mm fan would provide insane cooling for that little case, IF it fits. Silverstone mentioned in the comments that with the fan mounted on the bottom, it'd provide 31.88mm clearance room which should be enough for the low profile Ballistix (and maybe even the 24pin PSU connector??), as well as the black mobo heatsink on the other side of the CPU? I'll have to measure it when I get home. Also, 82 mm's tall = only 0.57 of clearance left and that's not including the mobo PCB. So it'd be very tight.

I know that's probably something that's never been done before but would be interesting to see if it fits, it could be a gamechanger for keeping this thing even cooler by adding a 120mm option.

For 92mm option, I was thinking about the Scythe Shuriken Rev. B:
http://www.amazon.com/Scythe-Shurike.../dp/B002AIS97Q
Although I'm not sure if that's compatible with 1155...

Also, here is another comparison of 5 low profile HSF's which includes two options each from Zalman and Xigmatek, although more interested in the Zalman 110mm's:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...118%2D127%2DTS

 

[DaveSimmons]

SilentPCReview - Noctua NH-L9i 37mm and compares to others like Scythe Kozuti
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Noctua_NH-L9i

Scyrhe:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/scythe-kozuti

 

[SP33Demon]

SilentPCReview - Noctua NH-L9i 37mm and compares to others like Scythe Kozuti
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Noctua_NH-L9i

Scyrhe:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/scythe-kozuti

Those are still 92mm and 80mm fan heatsinks. I'm looking for compatibility with a 120 like the above proposed Silverstone for insane cooling ability. Thanks for the feedback though!

I'll check out the Zalman 110mm's when I have more time.

 

[mfenn]

Will there be clearance for an 82mm tall X 140 X 140 length and width? A 120mm fan would provide insane cooling for that little case, IF it fits. Silverstone mentioned in the comments that with the fan mounted on the bottom, it'd provide 31.88mm clearance room which should be enough for the low profile Ballistix (and maybe even the 24pin PSU connector??), as well as the black mobo heatsink on the other side of the CPU? I'll have to measure it when I get home. Also, 82 mm's tall = only 0.57 of clearance left and that's not including the mobo PCB. So it'd be very tight.

A typical standard-profile DIMM is about 43mm tall, so you're talking twice that. I don't see how it could possibly clear the bracket in the PSU area at that height without some modification.

 

[Zap]

One thing that is intriguing to me - is there a low profile SFF 120mm HSF that will be compatible with this? For example:
http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=368

Will there be clearance for an 82mm tall X 140 X 140 length and width? A 120mm fan would provide insane cooling for that little case, IF it fits.

There are five things to consider when thinking of using such a cooler.

1) Will it fit the motherboard? Besides interfering with RAM and power, one problem with many Intel chipset mini ITX boards is the CPU socket proximity to the PCIe slot.

2) Will it clear the internal power cable that connects the PSU to the rear power plug? The answer to that is "no." Anything taller than the stock heatsink will not have clearance. You have to mod it.

3) Will it clear the drive tray brace? This is a metal brace that extends from the drive trays in front to the rear of the case. And yes, I've heard of people doing mods to get rid of the power cable and this metal brace. It is doable.

4) Will it clear the drives? The rear of the drives extends just over the motherboard. Big heatsinks may interfere.

5) The side panel, but not the way you think. Sure, it blocks large heatsinks. The other thing is that if your heatsink buts up against it, you won't get very good airflow. In such an instance, unless you mod it for ventilation, one of the smaller heatsinks may actually cool better just because air can flow through it. Though, one alternative may be to make sure the bigger heatsink can be oriented so that the fins run with the airflow, thus using the two 80mm exhaust fans to cool the heatsink.

EDIT: Because I like you so much... okay I lied, I don't know you from Jack...

I did some measuring. 82mm will probably fit (yes I used my cheap calipers), but just about touching the side panel. That is if you modded and re-routed the internal power cable and cut the drive tray support... and also didn't use any drives! The 2.5" drives will overlap the edge of the motherboard by around 5mm, BEFORE any cables are plugged in, which would cause a greater overlap.

This first image shows a few things I'd like to point out. First thing is that black cable crossing the CPU heatsink, which becomes a thick blob near the rear of the case. THAT is the power cable that runs from the rear power jack to the internal PSU which is under the 256GB TorqX SSD.

Second thing is the edge of the motherboard. You can see the shiny screw near where the RAM and PCIe slot meet. That is right at the edge of the board.

Third thing is the SSD itself. See where it resides? There is a gap there that fits the drive nicely, even without screwing it in. Sure it kind of rattles when I move the system for LAN parties, but that won't damage an SSD. Knowing this space exists can help you squeeze a third 2.5" drive in there, or the solo drive if you don't use the drive bay.

This pic shows the drives trays all installed. All that metal covering the motherboard would need to be removed, leaving the drive trays unsupported except from the front. If you run this case as a mini tower, shouldn't be too great of an issue. I've heard of others performing this mod without problem.

See the actual tray that the SSD sits on? The motherboard pretty much starts where that metal ends. You can see that below it there is another metal tray (it is for the slim optical drive). Also you can see how far the SATA cables extend. Yup, none of that can be there if you use such a tall heatsink.

 

[snoylekim]

Mac Minis are great little boxes, but they use laptop CPUs. That's a 2.0 GHz mobile i7 instead of a 3.4 GHz desktop CPU. Minis also have no optical drive.

Not to go too far off topic , but the 2012 Mac Mini in the middle configuration has either the 2.3 or 2.6 Quad Core IB I7 ..Geekbench score is 12812 for the 2.6 ... the mobile i7 iBs are pretty respectable .. won't match the I5 the OP is building, but they're a very nice small form factor, and can handle a lot .. used a couple for HD video rendering... Don't think they'll choke on code, and they're definitely faster than an Android Razer

 

[TheStu]

Not to go too far off topic , but the 2012 Mac Mini in the middle configuration has either the 2.3 or 2.6 Quad Core IB I7 ..Geekbench score is 12812 for the 2.6 ... the mobile i7 iBs are pretty respectable .. won't match the I5 the OP is building, but they're a very nice small form factor, and can handle a lot .. used a couple for HD video rendering... Don't think they'll choke on code, and they're definitely faster than an Android Razer

Well, OP may want to build a computer, and there is no optical drive. And if he were to get an older one far enough back to actually get the optical drive, there goes the performance.

Other than that, I agree with you, the Mini is quite a respectable little box, also it uses VERY little power.

 

[SP33Demon]

There are five things to consider when thinking of using such a cooler.

1) Will it fit the motherboard? Besides interfering with RAM and power, one problem with many Intel chipset mini ITX boards is the CPU socket proximity to the PCIe slot.

2) Will it clear the internal power cable that connects the PSU to the rear power plug? The answer to that is "no." Anything taller than the stock heatsink will not have clearance. You have to mod it.

3) Will it clear the drive tray brace? This is a metal brace that extends from the drive trays in front to the rear of the case. And yes, I've heard of people doing mods to get rid of the power cable and this metal brace. It is doable.

4) Will it clear the drives? The rear of the drives extends just over the motherboard. Big heatsinks may interfere.

5) The side panel, but not the way you think. Sure, it blocks large heatsinks. The other thing is that if your heatsink buts up against it, you won't get very good airflow. In such an instance, unless you mod it for ventilation, one of the smaller heatsinks may actually cool better just because air can flow through it. Though, one alternative may be to make sure the bigger heatsink can be oriented so that the fins run with the airflow, thus using the two 80mm exhaust fans to cool the heatsink.

EDIT: Because I like you so much... okay I lied, I don't know you from Jack...

I did some measuring. 82mm will probably fit (yes I used my cheap calipers), but just about touching the side panel. That is if you modded and re-routed the internal power cable and cut the drive tray support... and also didn't use any drives! The 2.5" drives will overlap the edge of the motherboard by around 5mm, BEFORE any cables are plugged in, which would cause a greater overlap.

This first image shows a few things I'd like to point out. First thing is that black cable crossing the CPU heatsink, which becomes a thick blob near the rear of the case. THAT is the power cable that runs from the rear power jack to the internal PSU which is under the 256GB TorqX SSD.

Second thing is the edge of the motherboard. You can see the shiny screw near where the RAM and PCIe slot meet. That is right at the edge of the board.

Third thing is the SSD itself. See where it resides? There is a gap there that fits the drive nicely, even without screwing it in. Sure it kind of rattles when I move the system for LAN parties, but that won't damage an SSD. Knowing this space exists can help you squeeze a third 2.5" drive in there, or the solo drive if you don't use the drive bay.

This pic shows the drives trays all installed. All that metal covering the motherboard would need to be removed, leaving the drive trays unsupported except from the front. If you run this case as a mini tower, shouldn't be too great of an issue. I've heard of others performing this mod without problem.

See the actual tray that the SSD sits on? The motherboard pretty much starts where that metal ends. You can see that below it there is another metal tray (it is for the slim optical drive). Also you can see how far the SATA cables extend. Yup, none of that can be there if you use such a tall heatsink.

Thanks for the insight Zap. After seeing all the work it would take, I guess I'm just going with the new Noctua cooler and a standard sized 92mm fan (not the thin one it comes with). That would put it at around 54mmX93X93 which would be much more managable for this case while moving a good chunk of air. I was thinking about doing a Scythe Shuriken but really don't have the time to mod/move the power adapter (that thing is in such an inconvenient place!!). I'll keep you posted on what I pick up.

 

[SP33Demon]

Ok some new updates. Bought 2 Arctic Cooling PWM F8 80mm ($13) to use as side fans, Noctua NH-L9i ($49) low profile HSF, and Scythe Kama PWM 92mm ($10) to use on top of the Noctua. So that pushes the total cost to a little over $700 shipped.

 

[Zap]

Wait, how many PWM fans will you have? Check the motherboard. Some ITX boards only have two fan headers.