Help me with my sons Squat bar position issue

[Lazarus52980]

My son has shown a lot of interest in lifting weights with me, since I lift 3 days a week at home. Because of that I have been trying to teach him to do the basic lifts, including the high bar squat. We have been working on it for a few weeks, but there is one part I just can't seem to help him with. He has a hard time holding the bar evenly across his shoulders. I am able to push the bar into the correct position, but he complains that it hurts his neck... Is this a flexibility issue? Is there anything I can do to help him get this right?

 

[Saint Nick]

When he says it hurts his neck, is the bar laying on his back bones (cervical vertebrae)? When I first started lifting, and had zero lat muscles, the bar hurt my neck too. I had to use a puss-pad/Manta ray for a long time before I could just rest the bar on my neck.

Glad your son is picking up the iron, hope he sticks with it.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Read everything Rippetoe says about the squat:

Some things on squat:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

There is a book called Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training that he wrote. Buy it, aquire it through various means. Whatever. If you want your son to do things correctly, read, understand and learn through practice.

In short, the bar should not be on the shoulders. It belongs on the back (and this single sentence will start a debate, I appologize pre-emptively). Use an empty bar to learn position and technique and slowly add weight. Start with 45 pounds.

How old is your son?

Also, Rippetoe has tons of youtube videos that teach the squat that are freely available. Start watching them. If you want to search for his book/DVD I can tell you that it is available out there on the web (wink wink).


FWIW: I do not use a pad with 220 pounds. If you have the bar in the correct position it is not needed. I don't know if I'll ever need a pad but I am not convinced that I would need it at 300 pounds. I could try 300 tonight if you'd like jsut to see if it hurts.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Can't see this at work (bar position):
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/platform_the_squat_bar_position

 

[rga]

Maybe he'd be better off using the low bar position? It's pretty much there on the left side. Try having him stand in front of the bar, grip the bar on top just wider than shoulder width (have him put his thumb on top of the bar instead of wrapping it around the bar - his hands should secure the bar to his back, not support the bar) and have him lean under he bar. When he's under it, have him stand up just enough so that his shoulder blades are on top of the bar. See how comfortable that is before adding weight to the bar or lifting it out of the rack.

/edit I think he needs to "pinch" his shoulder blades together more too. From the photo it doesn't look like his back and shoulders are supporting the bar enough.

As for flexibty, holding a broom stick just wider than shoulder width and rotating it above his head and down to his lower back, and then back in front to his waistline, could help with flexibility. I do this 20 times before I squat.

 

[Lazarus52980]

Read everything Rippetoe says about the squat:

Some things on squat:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

There is a book called Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training that he wrote. Buy it, aquire it through various means. Whatever. If you want your son to do things correctly, read, understand and learn through practice.

In short, the bar should not be on the shoulders. It belongs on the back (and this single sentence will start a debate, I appologize pre-emptively). Use an empty bar to learn position and technique and slowly add weight. Start with 45 pounds.

How old is your son?

Also, Rippetoe has tons of youtube videos that teach the squat that are freely available. Start watching them. If you want to search for his book/DVD I can tell you that it is available out there on the web (wink wink).


FWIW: I do not use a pad with 220 pounds. If you have the bar in the correct position it is not needed. I don't know if I'll ever need a pad but I am not convinced that I would need it at 300 pounds. I could try 300 tonight if you'd like jsut to see if it hurts.

I am very familair with the writings of coach Rippetoe. I own a copy of Starting Strength and have read through it all, but after about a year of doing HBS myself, I just found I kept hurting my left bicep every time I lifted, to the point that the pain in my arm would keep me from lifting. I switched to HBS and was able to continue to progress, so I had intended to teach my son to do what I do.

There is no way I could start with a 45 lb bar. He currently uses a 15 lb bar, and maybe a 2 1/2 lb weight on each side. I know he is strong enough to do more, but I really want his form to be better before we progress (he currently does 3 sets of 8 at 20 lbs).

He is 6 years old right now

I never used the pad, but I can tell you for sure that I really WANTED to a few times. I was shamed into not useing one by reading starting strength (lol, its the same reason I don't use gloves to lift...)

Here is a video I took last night of his form after I noticed the bar issue. We corrected it as well as we could and this is the result (Please ignore the first rep, it was terrible...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1xMH_OvbNA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Howard]

Use low bar position. With LBP, the bar will be more stable with more developed upper back muscles. Chinups and overhead press (technique is not easy) are perfect for this.

And yes, high bar position will hurt at first.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

6 years old?

Why?

I can understand him wanting to mimic daddy, but you need to just teach him how to do a proper push up. My kid is pretty much not touching weights till he is 13. He is currently 7 and wants to mimic daddy some times with the weights. I let him play with the lat pulldown machine once in a while but with only 5-10 pounds.

 

[Howard]

6 years old?

Why?

I can understand him wanting to mimic daddy, but you need to just teach him how to do a proper push up. My kid is pretty much not touching weights till he is 13. He is currently 7 and wants to mimic daddy some times with the weights. I let him play with the lat pulldown machine once in a while but with only 5-10 pounds.

Didn't even notice that. Why not wait until puberty, when lifting will actually help?

 

[surfsatwerk]

Kudos to you for getting your kid started young.

 

[Lazarus52980]

6 years old?

Why?

I can understand him wanting to mimic daddy, but you need to just teach him how to do a proper push up. My kid is pretty much not touching weights till he is 13. He is currently 7 and wants to mimic daddy some times with the weights. I let him play with the lat pulldown machine once in a while but with only 5-10 pounds.

This is a suprising answer from you. The man who wrote SS along with coach Rippetoe was Lon Kilgore. He seems to have a differnet opinion on starting them on weights when they are young.

http://www.lonkilgore.com/ssyouth.pdf


I am not going to let him do any sets of less than 8 reps, so that makes sure he does not do too much weight to hurt himself. He is not going to put on any bulk muscle until he gets older, but by then he will already understand the movements, and have a lot of muscle fiber recruitment.

He is so-so at pushups right now. He can do about 10-12 of them. My hope is that the bench press and overhead press work we are doing will help with the push-ups and vice versa.

Just so you don't think we do only lifting, he ran a 1:41:54 quarter mile the last time we did it, and was able to do 38 situps in 60 seconds. My goal is to teach him overall fitness, not just how to lift weights.


Why would teaching my children fitness and weights at a young age be a bad thing?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

6 years old?

Why?

I can understand him wanting to mimic daddy, but you need to just teach him how to do a proper push up. My kid is pretty much not touching weights till he is 13. He is currently 7 and wants to mimic daddy some times with the weights. I let him play with the lat pulldown machine once in a while but with only 5-10 pounds.

I'll post the research article later, but there is evidence showing that weightlifting in children has no real detriment, especially if good technique is stressed with lighter weights. It improves body awareness, strength, and bone density and has no link to short stature. Many olympic weightlifters start when they're young and they have a HUGE neural coordination advantage. If he wants to do it, then good for him. The weight just had to be light. Therefore, he should start with a PVC pipe that you can add small weights to. That shouldn't hurt his back with high or low bar and, since it has a greater surface area (or should, and be less hard) would cause any skeletal abnormalities or anything. I'd say show him the front squat. There's no risk of hurting his neck that way and the technique is more straight forward.

Perhaps instead of me posting the article that'd I'd have to search for, look at the sources in the starting strength youth link posted above. Nearly 25 or so - a better start than I could provide.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Sorry for my ignorance. I just spouted off bro science.

My 7 year old wants to do exercise. But I am avoiding it. If it is safe for him to do, I'll do it. especially if it has side benefits.

Great, more things to read up on.

 

[CPA]

Can't see this at work (bar position):
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/platform_the_squat_bar_position

I have been squatting for 26 years and just learned I have been doing it wrong all of that time. What a great video. Thanks.

Where can I find more Rippetoe videos?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Sorry for my ignorance. I just spouted off bro science.

My 7 year old wants to do exercise. But I am avoiding it. If it is safe for him to do, I'll do it. especially if it has side benefits.

Great, more things to read up on.

It's not your fault. It's something that had some fair logic behind it, which is why it has stuck around so long. The research just doesn't show those problems though, which is great.

It does have benefits, but like I said before, no high weight, low reps. Low weight and high reps is the best for them. I personally wouldn't go below 10ish reps for a child and would rarely let them max (but would let them if they wanted to compete in something like Oly lifting. I wouldn't let them powerlift).

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

I have been squatting for 26 years and just learned I have been doing it wrong all of that time. What a great video. Thanks.

Where can I find more Rippetoe videos?

I think there is a DVD in his book. But if you were to search at a popular "search engine" for things like DVDs, you'd probably find it. His videos are awesome. He spends about 45 minutes on the majhor lifts. A 45 minute lesson on proper squat form. It is invaluable.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

It's not your fault. It's something that had some fair logic behind it, which is why it has stuck around so long. The research just doesn't show those problems though, which is great.

It does have benefits, but like I said before, no high weight, low reps. Low weight and high reps is the best for them. I personally wouldn't go below 10ish reps for a child and would rarely let them max (but would let them if they wanted to compete in something like Oly lifting. I wouldn't let them powerlift).

I always worry about unintended consequences. I know my friends in colelge that started playing hockey at 5 often had knee issues. Kidna makes sense but lifting weights adds extra load on your joints in a similar way.

Curious as to what would happen if you follow 1000 7 year olds that start a program liek this at 7 and follow them for 15 years.

 

[Lazarus52980]

I always worry about unintended consequences. I know my friends in colelge that started playing hockey at 5 often had knee issues. Kidna makes sense but lifting weights adds extra load on your joints in a similar way.

Curious as to what would happen if you follow 1000 7 year olds that start a program liek this at 7 and follow them for 15 years.

I think Rip would tell you that if you are doing it right, that lifting will not only not hurt your joints, but will make them stronger.

Although, even with a very eager 6 year old, helping them to do the lift right is a big challenge. I think the long term results just from the macro muscle coordination will be great, but its a LOT of work for you and for the kid.

 

[repoman0]

I think Rip would tell you that if you are doing it right, that lifting will not only not hurt your joints, but will make them stronger.

Yeah, this has been true for me too - my knees in the past have made all kinds of weird popping and clicking noises from too many years of violent pickup football games, but now that I've been doing squats for 9 months that nonsense has all but gone away and my knees and back feel better than ever.

From your picture, it looks like your son's arms are different distances from his body? Maybe keep them both further out at first and then move in as he becomes more flexible.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I always worry about unintended consequences. I know my friends in colelge that started playing hockey at 5 often had knee issues. Kidna makes sense but lifting weights adds extra load on your joints in a similar way.

Curious as to what would happen if you follow 1000 7 year olds that start a program liek this at 7 and follow them for 15 years.

Every athlete that's super competitive has aches and pains, regardless of what time they start playing. It's actually more likely for individuals who are newer to the sport to get injuries due to lesser neural coordination. In addition, a sport like hockey has the risk of spontaneous injury (much higher than weightlifting). No matter what age you're at, if you tear your ACL, you're going to have problems. In addition, your body adapts and you actually generate thicker, more resilient cartilage, connective tissue, ligaments, muscles, tendons, etc in response to the training. I'd say weightlifting is much less risky than something like hockey, soccer, or football.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Funny thing about the spontaneous injury. I sprained me knee once in my life. Man, that hurts. Thought it was a tear. it happened doing roller hockey actually. Funny thing is, it was between whistles. I just went to drag a toe to slow down gradually. Something i have done many times. But this one time it tweaked me knee real bad. And it was doing nothing really.

When I just started lifting 15 months ago, I could swear that me knee cap shifted to the side on me. Hurt a little but more of a weird feeling. After reading up on it, it had to do with weak muscles in the area. Solution was to keep lifting (after resting a week). Today though, my knees are rock solid. Way better than 15 months ago.

 

[rga]

I don't know if has any place in this thread, but I get a clicking sound in my left knee now and then since my squats are getting heavier. But it's also funny that the first place I noticed muscle growth when I started 5x5 was around my knee. Not sure if it's the quads or the hamgstrings or what. But it's kind of like that space between your index finger and your thumb, and it's growing big around the inside of both of my knees. I squat just below parallel, and there is no pain, other than the muscle fatigue that sets in after squatting.

Honestly, I wish my father had introduced me to weights when I was 7. Hell, I'd have been happy if he'd done it when I was 13-16. Everything that I've learned about physical exercise pretty much started from SC's fat loss sticky... one year ago. I'll be 29 this December.

I envy the father son relationship that Lazarus and his son has.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

http://blogs.menshealth.com/muscle-guy/is-it-bad-that-my-knees-crack-when-i-squat/2011/04/25/

 

[CPA]

I think there is a DVD in his book. But if you were to search at a popular "search engine" for things like DVDs, you'd probably find it. His videos are awesome. He spends about 45 minutes on the majhor lifts. A 45 minute lesson on proper squat form. It is invaluable.

Just picked up his Starting Strength book on Kindle. Great book so far. Always did seated behind the neck presses because I felt too much pain in seated front presses. Well, DUH, I've been doing them wrong. Just this morning, I did several sets of standing presses using the methods Rip shoes, and you know what I lifted more than I have able to for months AND no pain in the shoulders. In fact, for months I've been dealing with a shoulder impingement in my right shoulder, even hurts when I sleep. But, I felt nothing today during the shoulder press. Boy, you really don't know lifting until you start doing it properly.

 

[chusteczka]

For anyone of any age, especially a child, I would prefer to start the person by working with their own body weight. You (the OP) mentioned your boy is doing push-ups and situps. That is a great start. Now have him do squats with his own body weight, and possibly even pull-ups.

A person really does not need weights until they are doing many reps, let's say 40-50 reps of squats with no bar weights. But then squats can be improved to jumping squats. Then jumping squats where you pull your knees to your chest when airborne.

You can also squat, without weights, and see how long you can hold the down position. A person should be able to hold that for at least 45-60 seconds before starting with weights.

I would say that once your boy can do 25-30 jumping squats, then get a contorted arm curl bar, put 5 or 10 pounds on each side, and let him work with that. The bump in the arm curl bar can be placed directly over the neck, to rest on the shoulders instead.

These are alternatives to a straight, adult-sized bar.


EDIT:
And please ensure he sits with his back straight, especially when eating meals for regulated practice, to ensure the small of his back is strong enough to protect itself should you decide to use weights.

EDIT2:

This is a suprising answer from you. The man who wrote SS along with coach Rippetoe was Lon Kilgore. He seems to have a differnet opinion on starting them on weights when they are young.

http://www.lonkilgore.com/ssyouth.pdf

I am not going to let him do any sets of less than 8 reps, so that makes sure he does not do too much weight to hurt himself. He is not going to put on any bulk muscle until he gets older, but by then he will already understand the movements, and have a lot of muscle fiber recruitment.

...

Why would teaching my children fitness and weights at a young age be a bad thing?

That quoted article does not mention anything about compacting the bone growth plates on children, thereby limiting their height growth potential. The closest it comes is with this:

It has also been noted that weight training does not interfere with growth by other
means (Ramsey, 1990; Sailors, 1987; Seigel, 1989; Weltman, 1986). Research reviewed by
Theintz (1994) seems to suggest that sport training for less than 15 hours per week was not disruptive to hormonal status, growth or puberty.

Then they show the picture of Curt White at 12 years old with 180 lbs., in a squat position supporting the excess weight by the tendons and ligaments in his knees rather than by the muscles in his legs. Unsurprisingly, Curt White's biography shows he only attained 5' 7" in height.

You (the OP) seem to be doing well by focusing on a medium number of reps but I think you should have him go for more. 8 reps is still lifting for muscle mass development rather than toning. I prefer a minimum of 12 reps for toning, preferably 20. As mentioned previously, high reps with low weight and proper form should be your goal for your son.