Help a poor atheist out

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: udonoogen
if you're truly considering the Christian faith you might try reading up on some Christian apologetics. Some of the contemporary easier to read stuff is written by Lee Stroebel ("Case for Christ," "Case for Faith"). CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is a classic if you can hang with the logic.

Bahnsen and Schaeffer are pretty good too if youre looking into presuppositional apologetics although some of their material, while still relevant, is dated due to it being written more than a few years ago.

What if I want something more aligned with pop culture? Like "10 Minutes 'till Saved" on CD?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: aplefka

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: aplefka

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.

And if I told you that I'm not biased at all? And that it was actually for the best that your sister died?

I'd still question you. You're a human, not a god, as I already mentioned. Humans are flawed in many ways. Adding what ifs doesn't change it. A human is a human, and isn't comparable to any form of a deity.

I've already posted in the Goodnight thread but I stayed on here. I've really gotta go now, I need to sleep. Maybe more on this tomorrow if the thread hasn't been crapped on too much by then? Night all.

And if I told you I'm God?

Is it so difficult to believe? You've never seen me, you have no reason to believe what I say, and no proof that I exist.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff.

So, if you believe in no higher power, a.k.a. you serve no one but yourself.... then why do you bother being moral?

Question: why does not believing in a higher power in the universe mean you serve only yourself?

If you follow moral law, you do it because a. you seek to serve someone/something else through it, or b. you believe it to hold a value in and of itself. If you follow the idea of serving mankind as a member of humanity, that's still serving a form of higher power. If you follow moral law for its own sake, then that law itself is something higher.

For its own sake would just be being a sheep: not serving any thing or any one save the status quo. That would not be something higher.

Basically, if you are an all-out atheist/nihilist who believes in making his own rules, there isn't a justification to follow any kind of moral code. Not to imply that's what the OP or any of you are, its just a question that far too many self-proclaimed "agnostics" don't address. If you don't believe in some traditional concept of God, at least know what you do believe in.

If you are a human and nihilist, you should be institutionalized. Period (many who claim to be little-n nihilists are just bullsh!tting themselves). If you are a Nihilist, then serving the social order of humanity would still apply.

However, you are twisting words with 'higher power'. There is a great gap between believing in am external God and believing in nothing beyond a random biological existence, yet still calling it a 'higher power'.

I will agree on people who claim to be agnostic and leave it at that. Especially the ones that just describe themselves as 'spiritual'. If it is relavent, you should seek your Truth. If it is not relavent, say so; rather than avoid the issue.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: aplefka

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: aplefka

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.

And if I told you that I'm not biased at all? And that it was actually for the best that your sister died?

I'd still question you. You're a human, not a god, as I already mentioned. Humans are flawed in many ways. Adding what ifs doesn't change it. A human is a human, and isn't comparable to any form of a deity.

Not comparable to any form of a deity? Let me guess...you're not an atheist, or anything close to one.

I've already posted in the Goodnight thread but I stayed on here. I've really gotta go now, I need to sleep. Maybe more on this tomorrow if the thread hasn't been crapped on too much by then? Night all.

...I await The Gurck and his Illustrious iPod-thrashing Armies of Trolldom.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: aplefka

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: aplefka

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.

And if I told you that I'm not biased at all? And that it was actually for the best that your sister died?

I'd still question you. You're a human, not a god, as I already mentioned. Humans are flawed in many ways. Adding what ifs doesn't change it. A human is a human, and isn't comparable to any form of a deity.

I've already posted in the Goodnight thread but I stayed on here. I've really gotta go now, I need to sleep. Maybe more on this tomorrow if the thread hasn't been crapped on too much by then? Night all.

And if I told you I'm God?

Is it so difficult to believe? You've never seen me, you have no reason to believe what I say, and no proof that I exist.

What if I had seen you, and have proof that you exist, and say that you could be?

 

[udonoogen]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: udonoogen
if you're truly considering the Christian faith you might try reading up on some Christian apologetics. Some of the contemporary easier to read stuff is written by Lee Stroebel ("Case for Christ," "Case for Faith"). CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is a classic if you can hang with the logic.

Bahnsen and Schaeffer are pretty good too if youre looking into presuppositional apologetics although some of their material, while still relevant, is dated due to it being written more than a few years ago.

What if I want something more aligned with pop culture? Like "10 Minutes 'till Saved" on CD?

Jesus loves you, too, Nebor.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
If you follow moral law, you do it because a. you seek to serve someone/something else through it, or b. you believe it to hold a value in and of itself. If you follow the idea of serving mankind as a member of humanity, that's still serving a form of higher power. If you follow moral law for its own sake, then that law itself is something higher.

For its own sake would just be being a sheep: not serving any thing or any one save the status quo. That would not be something higher.

I meant something more like the idea that "moral law" exists outside the realm of mankind, and thus holds a value in itself. Something like the way most people look at God (who believe there is a God, that is); God exists outside the realm of mankind and calls the shots, and we serve him as a greater power. For some, "moral law" is that higher power, in a different concept.

Basically, if you are an all-out atheist/nihilist who believes in making his own rules, there isn't a justification to follow any kind of moral code. Not to imply that's what the OP or any of you are, its just a question that far too many self-proclaimed "agnostics" don't address. If you don't believe in some traditional concept of God, at least know what you do believe in.

If you are a human and nihilist, you should be institutionalized. Period. If you are a Nihilist, then serving the social order of humanity would still apply.

Not by any definition of nihilism that I've ever heard. Nihilists serve nothing and no one but themselves, and any social order they serve is only important as long as its betters their own quality of life. I suppose that could be an impetus for keep a basic moral code, since complete chaos isn't good for anybody, but its not the same as serving an over-arching code of ethics.

However, you are twisting words with 'higher power'. There is a great gap between believing in am external God and believing in nothing beyond a random biological existence, yet still calling it a 'higher power'.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so I'll just clarify myself a little more: I'm using a "higher power" to refer to any idea of some kind of entity which exists ourside our own little reality. For many, that power is God. For some, its a simple idea of moral right/wrong. For some, its simply a vague idea that humans have a "purpose" in their lives. Obviously believing in God and believing in a higher power don't have to be the same thing.

I will agree on people who claim to be agnostic and leave it at that. Especially the ones that just describe themselves as 'spiritual'. If it is relavent, you should seek your Truth. If it is not relavent, say so; rather than avoid the issue.

:thumbsup:

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Is it so difficult to believe? You've never seen me, you have no reason to believe what I say, and no proof that I exist.

What if I had seen you, and have proof that you exist, and say that you could be?[/quote]

That I could be... what?

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Are you an atheist, or an agnost? An atheist actually denies the possibility of there being a god, an agnost does not deny that there is the possibility, but does not see any proof yet and therefor cannot believe in a specific religion being true.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Are you an atheist, or an agnost? An atheist actually denies the possibility of there being a god, an agnost does not deny that there is the possibility, but does not see any proof yet and therefor cannot believe in a specific religion being true.

How about someone who believes in God, but thinks God is a malevolant or at least indifferent force in the world?

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Are you an atheist, or an agnost? An atheist actually denies the possibility of there being a god, an agnost does not deny that there is the possibility, but does not see any proof yet and therefor cannot believe in a specific religion being true.

How about someone who believes in God, but thinks God is a malevolant or at least indifferent force in the world?

These guys usually commit mass suicides every couple years, so they're never really around long enough to give them a name.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
If you follow moral law, you do it because a. you seek to serve someone/something else through it, or b. you believe it to hold a value in and of itself. If you follow the idea of serving mankind as a member of humanity, that's still serving a form of higher power. If you follow moral law for its own sake, then that law itself is something higher.

For its own sake would just be being a sheep: not serving any thing or any one save the status quo. That would not be something higher.

I meant something more like the idea that "moral law" exists outside the realm of mankind, and thus holds a value in itself. Something like the way most people look at God (who believe there is a God, that is); God exists outside the realm of mankind and calls the shots, and we serve him as a greater power. For some, "moral law" is that higher power, in a different concept.

In that case, sure.

hr>Basically, if you are an all-out atheist/nihilist who believes in making his own rules, there isn't a justification to follow any kind of moral code. Not to imply that's what the OP or any of you are, its just a question that far too many self-proclaimed "agnostics" don't address. If you don't believe in some traditional concept of God, at least know what you do believe in.

If you are a human and nihilist, you should be institutionalized. Period. If you are a Nihilist, then serving the social order of humanity would still apply.

Not by any definition of nihilism that I've ever heard. Nihilists serve nothing and no one but themselves, and any social order they serve is only important as long as its betters their own quality of life. I suppose that could be an impetus for keep a basic moral code, since complete chaos isn't good for anybody, but its not the same as serving an over-arching code of ethics.

And how do you serve only yourself and still have emotions for others? If you do not have emotions for others, then I would say you were a genetic or trained reject, not deserving of the title of human.

However, you are twisting words with 'higher power'. There is a great gap between believing in am external God and believing in nothing beyond a random biological existence, yet still calling it a 'higher power'.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, so I'll just clarify myself a little more: I'm using a "higher power" to refer to any idea of some kind of entity which exists ourside our own little reality. For many, that power is God. For some, its a simple idea of moral right/wrong. For some, its simply a vague idea that humans have a "purpose" in their lives. Obviously believing in God and believing in a higher power don't have to be the same thing.

God adds a layer.
Selfish person: self <- society <- mankind.
Decent person, based on commonly accepted morals: self <-> society <-> mankind.
Altruist: self-> society -> mankind.
Decent Christian, based on study of holy texts and introspection (ignoring the chaos of a generic label here): self -> God, self <-> society <-> mankind <- God.
Ideal Atheist, free of egoism and prejudice: self <-> mankind.
Ideal Christian, free of egoism and prejudice: self -> God, self <-> mankind.
Ideal Thelemic (Thelemite? I'm too new at this, and need some Godless folks to argue with in person ): God=self=mankind=universe.
Hope that made sense

I will agree on people who claim to be agnostic and leave it at that. Especially the ones that just describe themselves as 'spiritual'. If it is relavent, you should seek your Truth. If it is not relavent, say so; rather than avoid the issue.

:thumbsup:

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Cerb

Is it so difficult to believe? You've never seen me, you have no reason to believe what I say, and no proof that I exist.

What if I had seen you, and have proof that you exist, and say that you could be?

That I could be... what?[/quote]That we are God, and the external being(s) that most religions make up are merely metaphors for our potential.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: Cerb
If you do not have emotions for others, then I would say you were a genetic or trained reject, not deserving of the title of human.

I agree with you, but the fact remains that quite a few people live by this code.

God adds a layer.
Selfish person: self <- society <- mankind.
Decent person, based on commonly accepted morals: self <-> society <-> mankind.
Altruist: self-> society -> mankind.
Decent Christian, based on study of holy texts and introspection (ignoring the chaos of a generic label here): self -> God, self <-> society <-> mankind <- God.
Ideal Atheist, free of egoism and prejudice: self <-> mankind.
Ideal Christian, free of egoism and prejudice: self -> God, self <-> mankind.
Ideal Thelemic (Thelemite? I'm too new at this, and need some Godless folks to argue with in person ): God=self=mankind=universe.
Hope that made sense

I'm kinda sleepy. If I remember to come back and look here tomorrow I'll try reading that again.

 

[TheBDB]

Hmmm there have been some interesting replies. But so far they all seem to be about christianity. Why should I give that one a try when MORE people believe in other religions? I bet some of the others have better perks too.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Tom
religion doesn't require faith, it's a club, just like ATOT, except there are more women.

*watches as ATOTers flock to church in great numbers*

Most religions preach pretty much the same thing, as they're all a guidebook to our advancement as a species toward mutually beneficial practices vs. parasitic ones. Interpretations vary from 'love your fellow man' to 'kill your fellow man', and each religion has people on both ends of that spectrum and everywhere in between. I'd suggest choosing based on things that do vary, such as distance to local house of worship and how well you get along with followers in your area. Best of luck, I could never bring myself to believe in a deity. Are you around 18-22? I've found it to be the range in which true atheists become apparent, as many kids who claimed it in the name of rebellion give in to their genes around this point in their life.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
For years I've listened to religious people explain faith to me, how it doesn't require proof, can't be understood logically, etc. OK, let's say I am willing to have faith in something. It doesn't have to make sense, I'm willing to blindly accept it. How do I choose my religion? Why did you choose your religion over others? There are so many out there, I'm kinda lost.

In my humble opinion - no one religion is the 'right' one. I didn't choose mine over others, it just happens to be the one I was born into. I also don't believe you *need* 'religion' per se to live a good life - I do believe however that you need to acknowledge something greater than yourself. IMHO once you acknowledge said higher power, you are truly on the path to wisdom. I believe in one unifying force/deity which will eventually be revealed to man and when this happens, all earthly religions and spirituality will be reconciled. This is all opinion, please don't take it for anything more.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
Hmmm there have been some interesting replies. But so far they all seem to be about christianity. Why should I give that one a try when MORE people believe in other religions? I bet some of the others have better perks too.

I hereby nominate Theravada Buddhism. Seems more philosophy than religion in that there is no faith in a deity outright required.

ThaiBuddhism.net

I occasionally visit the local Dhammakaya temple. It is nice to get away from the speed of "normal" life and meditate with the monks for a few hours, and the food is also good.

 

[40Hands]

Ahh the one question that no religious person can ever truly answer. See sig.

 

[Ausm]

I believe in watching pr0n at least 3 times/week ,avoiding holy rollers, and telling people who flagrantly push their religion on me to fvck off. That about covers it.

Ausm

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff.

Then you are lost.

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: udonoogen
if you're truly considering the Christian faith you might try reading up on some Christian apologetics. Some of the contemporary easier to read stuff is written by Lee Stroebel ("Case for Christ," "Case for Faith"). CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is a classic if you can hang with the logic.

Bahnsen and Schaeffer are pretty good too if youre looking into presuppositional apologetics although some of their material, while still relevant, is dated due to it being written more than a few years ago.

No, he should read a Purpose Driven Life. That will answer a ton of questions you have. Keep your bible handy for reference.

 

[40Hands]

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff.

Then you are lost.

I think its the other way around.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: BroeBo

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff.

Then you are lost.

I think its the other way around.

Agreed

 

[BAMAVOO]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: BroeBo

Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff.

Then you are lost.

I think its the other way around.

Agreed

Without God it doesn't matter how good a person you pretend to be.


The OP is not interested in the truth anyway... I say this because the quote he made about trying other religions with better perks. He just wants to start a flame war.

OP if you really want to know the truth. READ THE BIBLE and search yourself. Pray and ask God to come into your heart. You have to believe, you can't go after God with the same attitude you have in this thread. You must put your faith in him and everything you do.