Help a poor atheist out

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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

So, if you believe in no higher power, a.k.a. you serve no one but yourself.... then why do you bother being moral?

The concept of atheism is that you serve the community of mankind. Atheists believe in the spirit of man. Morality and law serve the community, and thus are validated.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.
So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:
So, if you believe in no higher power, a.k.a. you serve no one but yourself.... then why do you bother being moral?
Question: why does not believing in a higher power in the universe mean you serve only yourself?
 

t3hmuffinman

Senior member
Sep 10, 2004
536
0
0
Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
you could start by spelling athiest right.

I can't find "athiest" in the dictionary. Try one of these:

1 atheist
2 athirst
3 earthiest
4 achiest
5 ashiest
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.

Would you watch your sister die, and do nothing to stop it? And then claim that you love her more than anything? That's what God does.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.

Would you watch your sister die, and do nothing to stop it? And then claim that you love her more than anything? That's what God does.

But you're not alone. Everyone has bad things happen to them. Death is a part of life. During a time like that is when you need God the most. Just because he didn't save your sister's life doesn't mean he doesn't exist or that he doesn't like you. I know it's hard to understand that, there's been stuff that has happened to me and that I've seen that I couldn't understand how God would let it happen, but it doesn't make me question his existence. There are some things I'll never understand, and that's one of the main things you just have to accept.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: aplefka

But you're not alone. Everyone has bad things happen to them. Death is a part of life. During a time like that is when you need God the most. Just because he didn't save your sister's life doesn't mean he doesn't exist or that he doesn't like you. I know it's hard to understand that, there's been stuff that has happened to me and that I've seen that I couldn't understand how God would let it happen, but it doesn't make me question his existence. There are some things I'll never understand, and that's one of the main things you just have to accept.

So say I come up to you and say, "Hey aplefka, your sister fell off a bridge and died. She was hanging on the edge when I walked up, screaming for help, but I just watched her until she fell. By the way, I really love her a lot, that's why I had to let that happen."

You're gonna go, "Wow, you're awsome!"

Right?

I didn't say you should question his existance. Instead, I would question his benevolence.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.

By the same token, why does anyone owe god anything? Do you owe god your life for not killing your parents? I mean, if I never stab you, do you owe me your life?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.
Would you watch your sister die, and do nothing to stop it? And then claim that you love her more than anything? That's what God does.
That's like saying, "would you watch a river roll over you, and your best friend get swept away in it, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. That's what a rock does." Strawman.

Death is a part of life. It is nothing to be feared or lamented, any more than birth.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

But you're not alone. Everyone has bad things happen to them. Death is a part of life. During a time like that is when you need God the most. Just because he didn't save your sister's life doesn't mean he doesn't exist or that he doesn't like you. I know it's hard to understand that, there's been stuff that has happened to me and that I've seen that I couldn't understand how God would let it happen, but it doesn't make me question his existence. There are some things I'll never understand, and that's one of the main things you just have to accept.

So say I come up to you and say, "Hey aplefka, your sister fell off a bridge and died. She was hanging on the edge when I walked up, screaming for help, but I just watched her until she fell. By the way, I really love her a lot, that's why I had to let that happen."

You're gonna go, "Wow, you're awsome!"

Right?

I didn't say you should question his existance. Instead, I would question his benevolence.

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.
 

smithdj

Member
Feb 3, 2005
108
0
0
Without religion the world would be a better place. Almost every war is started on the belief that someone's religion is "correct" and others are wrong. Religion is the root of all evil, not money.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.

So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:

Exactly.

My personal collapse of faith came over a number of years. Initially, God was like a drunken father who was never there. He never listened to me, never heard my cries for help and guidance. I suppose he had better things to do. But then, I realize that I'm gay, and all of a sudden God cares. "God won't like this," they all say. Well where was God when it mattered? Where is God everytime he's needed? I can think of airplanes and tidal waves that could have used some divine attention. So either there is no God, or he just doesn't give a damn.

See, I don't understand where people got the feeling that God owed them something. That was something my older sister ran into one of her classes in college last year, that a lot of people felt that God owed them. For what? What have you done that's so great? God doesn't let my family win the lotto; hell we live from paycheck to paycheck almost, but I'm not complaining. The times when I've really needed him I've felt him there.

By the same token, why does anyone owe god anything? Do you owe god your life for not killing your parents? I mean, if I never stab you, do you owe me your life?

I'm going to take a wild guess that you're an atheist. Anyone with that attitude cannot possibly believe in God. I'm not going to get involved with you because it can only go downhill from here, and I'm too tired to get into a flame war.
 

TheLonelyPhoenix

Diamond Member
Feb 15, 2004
5,594
1
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
For chrissake people...

Do I take every word in the Bible literally? No. Has religion been manipulated by man repeatedly to serve his own ends? Certainly. Do I think everyone who doesn't share my exact beliefs is doomed to Hell? Of course not.

I stand by my faith because I believe in what it teaches me. I try to live my life according to charity, forgiveness, kindness to others as you would expect for yourself, and so on. This is why I am a Christian. I stand by the ideas it was based on. If you don't like it, tough. Christian or non-Christian, we've all got free will, whatever you believe that means... go use it.
So do I, but without all the god stuff. :confused:
So, if you believe in no higher power, a.k.a. you serve no one but yourself.... then why do you bother being moral?
Question: why does not believing in a higher power in the universe mean you serve only yourself?

If you follow moral law, you do it because a. you seek to serve someone/something else through it, or b. you believe it to hold a value in and of itself. If you follow the idea of serving mankind as a member of humanity, that's still serving a form of higher power. If you follow moral law for its own sake, then that law itself is something higher.

Basically, if you are an all-out atheist/nihilist who believes in making his own rules, there isn't a justification to follow any kind of moral code. Not to imply that's what the OP or any of you are, its just a question that far too many self-proclaimed "agnostics" don't address. If you don't believe in some traditional concept of God, at least know what you do believe in.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: aplefka

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.

No, if I did it, what would you think of me?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: smithdj
Without religion the world would be a better place. Almost every war is started on the belief that someone's religion is "correct" and others are wrong. Religion is the root of all evil, not money.
Trivia: in 1811, Percy Shelley was kicked out of Oxford for saying that.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.

No, if I did it, what would you think of me?

I'd question your motives, sure, but after all, you're a human and not a god.
 

TheLonelyPhoenix

Diamond Member
Feb 15, 2004
5,594
1
0
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.

No, if I did it, what would you think of me?

I'd question your motives, sure, but after all, you're a human and not a god.

He's also an asshole. :p
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.

No, if I did it, what would you think of me?

I'd question your motives, sure, but after all, you're a human and not a god.

Why question my motives and not God's?
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

Of course I'd be devestated, but I wouldn't question God or his motives. It'd probably bring me closer to my religion. Like I said, you just have to accept that you can't understand everything or why it happened. God's not out to get you though, I promise that.

No, if I did it, what would you think of me?

I'd question your motives, sure, but after all, you're a human and not a god.

Why question my motives and not God's?

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
There's a lot of "religions", and philosophies too.
But only one (that I kinow of) says that it is the ONLY way (of all religions) to heaven.

 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: aplefka

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.

And if I told you that I'm not biased at all? And that it was actually for the best that your sister died?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: db
There's a lot of "religions", and philosophies too.
But only one (that I kinow of) says that it is the ONLY way (of all religions) to heaven.

What's the punchline? :D
 

udonoogen

Diamond Member
Dec 28, 2001
3,243
0
76
if you're truly considering the Christian faith you might try reading up on some Christian apologetics. Some of the contemporary easier to read stuff is written by Lee Stroebel ("Case for Christ," "Case for Faith"). CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" is a classic if you can hang with the logic.

Bahnsen and Schaeffer are pretty good too if youre looking into presuppositional apologetics although some of their material, while still relevant, is dated due to it being written more than a few years ago.
 

aplefka

Lifer
Feb 29, 2004
12,014
2
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: aplefka

Because you're a human, as I already mentioned. And human's are very biased/prejudiced in many ways.

And if I told you that I'm not biased at all? And that it was actually for the best that your sister died?

I'd still question you. You're a human, not a god, as I already mentioned. Humans are flawed in many ways. Adding what ifs doesn't change it. A human is a human, and isn't comparable to any form of a deity.

I've already posted in the Goodnight thread but I stayed on here. I've really gotta go now, I need to sleep. Maybe more on this tomorrow if the thread hasn't been crapped on too much by then? Night all.