HealthCare - Rationing, Govt Audits of Biz and the list goes on...

[Descartes]

Care to take a guess at how much more investment we have in the healthcare sector over other nations? Care to answer why everybody just buys our technologies and cures instead of developing their own?
Capitalism at work. We find it first, we develop it first, we bring it to market first, and we cure people first. With a UHC plan, there is no incentive to develop new cures.
By all means, shoot yourself in the foot, and then shoot the guy that develops the antibiotic to keep your foot from getting infected, too.

I'm puzzled as to how the conversation went this direction.

1) I shouldn't have brought Wal-Mart into this conversation. Retail and healthcare are vastly different, and the only analog I was pointing out was the power yielded by Wal-Mart on industry standards and how it shapes the industry. That's where the similarities end.

2) I'm not going to disagree finding something first, bringing it to market first, etc. That's obvious, and without the entrepreneurial spirit in this country we'd have no innovation.

Which was my point: The larger these institutions get the more barriers there are to entry. Start-ups can't penetrate the market and never gain any ground. There's no real competition, because to even be able to play in the market you have to do the same thing everyone else is doing in order to gain any market share at all. This is why payors and major players in the industry (McKesson, Epic, AllScripts) are incented to push their own platforms rather than those inherently interoperable.

And this is why we have legislative agendas around monopolies. Read this: http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/06/health-care-industry-monopolizes-the-south.html (sorry, don't know how to link). It's not a pure monopoly, but it is a monopoly in methodology. The innovation is therefore limited to process, areas which have serious IP challenges and can only make a small dent in the industry. I can give you literally dozens of examples of this if you're interested.

Listen, I don't think payors are bad people. They don't do the things they do because they're looking for world domination or looking to hurt people. Unfortunately though, that's exactly what happens, because the financial models don't show that it's a 5 year old child that needs a transplant.

And to your other points, it doesn't pay to invest in an infrastructure that you then give to others which is why the industry is so fragmented. McKesson didn't invest 10s of millions in their solution only to hand it over to everyone else. The end result will be a ton of different solutions that ultimately are a pain in the ass to integrate and we're back to square one.

Hopefully I've made my point. TRUE innovation is stifled now and will not improve until the bigger players lose their iron hand control over that which is required to enter the market.

 

[sportage]

I know this OP looks disgusting, but it is meant to mislead. Something is up and you have to pay attention closely. Democrats have finally realized not one republican will support any reform. Period. And the lobbyist in Congress are chipping away at loyal democrats. Reid needs and wants to get his foot in the door of reform victory, by passing even a poor watered down version of the bill.

What has happened with the democrats is that they now look at this as building blocks to reform, and not some "one giant swoop" process currently unobtainable.
You have to look at this reform in steps, one by one, ending the "healthcare for profit" system, finally.

And consider the ever increasing hysteric resistance to any reform from pro business republicans and the healthcare for profit industry, as this bill heads closer and closer toward passage.

You have to consider there is much more on the table to reform than is currently on the plate.
This is just step # one, and this will be a huge step.
Please note: Why do you think the healthcare industry continues to shake in their boots, while it would seem reform is going their way right into the dumpster? Because the "healthcare for profit" industry knows too well that they will eventually lose the battle. Any reform bill passage is a terrifying prospect to them.

The healthcare for profit industry in America has but one goal and logical course, higher and higher rates/costs for the public. More greed and profit. As time goes by, their system as it stands now will not survive. And they know that only too well. There is where you see the panic to any reform passage.
For a long time they have gotten away with greed and the congress had protected them from reform. But that day is about to enter its end stages. That is why they continue to fight so hard in terror.

You would think with a public option not in the bill, and no Medicare buy-in, and the loss of the drug amendment, that the healthcare industry would be rejoicing? They are not. They know what is coming.

It might appear to us that reform is failing in the original goals, but look closer...
Things are not as bad as they look. And you will see a massive healthcare industry mental breakdown as soon as any reform bill passes, because they know this is not the end but just the beginning to total reform. Just watch as this plays out in the next few weeks, and then the next few years that follow.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I know this OP looks disgusting, but it is meant to mislead. Something is up and you have to pay attention closely. Democrats have finally realized not one republican will support any reform. Period. And the lobbyist in Congress are chipping away at loyal democrats. Reid needs and wants to get his foot in the door of reform victory, by passing even a poor watered down version of the bill.

What has happened with the democrats is that they now look at this as building blocks to reform, and not some "one giant swoop" process currently unobtainable.
You have to look at this reform in steps, one by one, ending the "healthcare for profit" system, finally.

And consider the ever increasing hysteric resistance to any reform from pro business republicans and the healthcare for profit industry, as this bill heads closer and closer toward passage.

You have to consider there is much more on the table to reform than is currently on the plate.
This is just step # one, and this will be a huge step.
Please note: Why do you think the healthcare industry continues to shake in their boots, while it would seem reform is going their way right into the dumpster? Because the "healthcare for profit" industry knows too well that they will eventually lose the battle. Any reform bill passage is a terrifying prospect to them.

The healthcare for profit industry in America has but one goal and logical course, higher and higher rates/costs for the public. More greed and profit. As time goes by, their system as it stands now will not survive. And they know that only too well. There is where you see the panic to any reform passage.
For a long time they have gotten away with greed and the congress had protected them from reform. But that day is about to enter its end stages. That is why they continue to fight so hard in terror.

You would think with a public option not in the bill, and no Medicare buy-in, and the loss of the drug amendment, that the healthcare industry would be rejoicing? They are not. They know what is coming.

It might appear to us that reform is failing in the original goals, but look closer...
Things are not as bad as they look. And you will see a massive healthcare industry mental breakdown as soon as any reform bill passes, because they know this is not the end but just the beginning to total reform. Just watch as this plays out in the next few weeks, and then the next few years that follow.

Oh look, it's the same as what I posted in the other thread. Another socialist admitting that we'll get to socialized medicine incrementally since they can't cram it down our throats all at once. Atleast you people are admitting your tactics now - not too long ago when people like me pointed out your plans- your types scoffed and tried to claim we were just paranoid.

 

[werepossum]

Oh look, it's the same as what I posted in the other thread. Another socialist admitting that we'll get to socialized medicine incrementally since they can't cram it down our throats all at once. Atleast you people are admitting your tactics now - not too long ago when people like me pointed out your plans- your types scoffed and tried to claim we were just paranoid.

Oh, but it's no fun to just get socialized medicine, the fun comes from looting and destroying the health insurance companies along the way. Just think of the millions of people whose jobs will be destroyed! Fun!

On the down side, since government workers earn almost double what private industry workers earn, we'll have to raise taxes quite a bit to stay above water once those private industry workers are replaced with government workers. But that's a small price to pay to ensure that only people found worthy (i.e. by Senators and Representatives) make money on health care.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I'm loving watching the right wingers crap their pants over the HC bill, I sadly await the day they have nothing left to fight for and their insane but amusing voices fade into eternal obscurity.

 

[bob4432]

I'm loving watching the right wingers crap their pants over the HC bill, I sadly await the day they have nothing left to fight for and their insane but amusing voices fade into eternal obscurity.

pretty sad you see the death of a country, our country, what use to be considered the best country in the world amusing based on your political associations/ideologies, but i guess that makes sense since you can't see out of your extremely small viewed world.....:twisted:, but don't think you will be immune for the reality this country is heading in, you are just an average person just like the majority, so don't worry, you will get your turn to grab your ankles.

so, do you get off when baby kittens are killed too?

 

[fskimospy]

pretty sad you see the death of a country, our country, what use to be considered the best country in the world amusing based on your political associations/ideologies, but i guess that makes sense since you can't see out of your extremely small viewed world.....:twisted:, but don't think you will be immune for the reality this country is heading in, you are just an average person just like the majority, so don't worry, you will get your turn to grab your ankles.

so, do you get off when baby kittens are killed too?

Yes, increased health care regulation is going to lead to the death of the United States

In case you were wondering why nobody takes you guys seriously, it's because you say things like that.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

pretty sad you see the death of a country, our country, what use to be considered the best country in the world amusing based on your political associations/ideologies, but i guess that makes sense since you can't see out of your extremely small viewed world.....:twisted:, but don't think you will be immune for the reality this country is heading in, you are just an average person just like the majority, so don't worry, you will get your turn to grab your ankles.

so, do you get off when baby kittens are killed too?

I find it comical that you believe a single bill designed to spread health coverage to those that don't have it spells "the death of our country" Nothing more than false emotions to satify your partisan hackery.

And you dare speak of killing baby kittens? What about the 3000+ dead American soldiers in the 8yrs of useless wars waged by your Republican heros. What about the 1000's of citizens that die from treatable conditions because they don't have insurance or were denied by your patriotic profit loving insurance companies?

Fein outrage all you want, throw out all the false patriotic, constitutional bullshit that you want, it still doesn't justify your position. If there is anyone who wishes for the destruction of our precious American way of life it's you self serving greedy right wingers that can't see past your next pile of dirty money.

 

[bob4432]

Yes, increased health care regulation is going to lead to the death of the United States

In case you were wondering why nobody takes you guys seriously, it's because you say things like that.

again, you need to look at the big picture as to where all this leads. bigger gov, more taxes, more gov etc. that is the problem and i honestly don't see how you people can't see this. again, please tell me where the gov has ever done anything "under cost"? and have you worked for the fed gov? i have and at the end of fiscal years they would buy all kinds of shit just so the next year they would get a larger budget, so then the next year, if there was still $$$ leftover, they had to blow through it.

again, i said a reform was needed, but closed door sessions w/ nobody reading the bill is hardly the way to do it.

and what do you mean by "you guys" - i am independent, not rep or dem. the parties are becoming the minority.

also, how old are you? just curious to your life experience

 

[bob4432]

I find it comical that you believe a single bill designed to spread health coverage to those that don't have it spells "the death of our country" Nothing more than false emotions to satify your partisan hackery.

And you dare speak of killing baby kittens? What about the 3000+ dead American soldiers in the 8yrs of useless wars waged by your Republican heros. What about the 1000's of citizens that die from treatable conditions because they don't have insurance or were denied by your patriotic profit loving insurance companies?

Fein outrage all you want, throw out all the false patriotic, constitutional bullshit that you want, it still doesn't justify your position. If there is anyone who wishes for the destruction of our precious American way of life it's you self serving greedy right wingers that can't see past your next pile of dirty money.

man, like i have said numerous times i am not a right winger, i wasn't for the iraq war and didn't vote for bush in his 2nd term - for me the first was too long. i feel we were lied to to get into the iraq war and i feel we are being lied to now.

being fully disabled myself i have questions about many things regarding insurance and pre-existing conditions, "rationed card", etc, but again, the bill highlights that sound good for sound bites are all that is being let out. nobody can read a 2k pg bill in less than 24hrs and make a real decision on it, the votes were got by either bribes or threats. i would be disgusted if i was a democrat due to how this bill has made it to where it is. you say i am going along a party line, but i don't tow a party line, i vote and think myself and not go along w/ whatever bullshit the "party" goes by, maybe you should too as all you guys are doing is just continually saying anti-right this and anti-right that, well i am not right or left.

 

[jonks]

the info is already given - page number and line number...what more do you need?

you're not here to have an honest discussion because the OP starts with already debunked hyperbolic rhetorical inflammatory interpretations of benign phrases.

Picking just one for the hell of it:

****
Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may
include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE
GOVERNMENT?!?)
****

This is part of the idiotic "death panel" gibberish. If a patient signs a DNR sometime after a voluntary end of life counseling session (which was going to be a covered expense but now is not, thanks to the Palinistas) and the patient wants that DNR enforced against the will of his family, technically the govt would be enforcing an "order to die." Of course the context and rational interpretation is that the govt is enforcing an individuals's choice about end of life care, something every person should DEMAND. If I say I don't want to be hooked up to a machine if I'm in a persistent vegitative state, and I put that in writing, I damned well want it enforced even if my next of kin disagree.

That's why you're trolling. Because you offered nothing but a cut/paste job of an opposition chain letter without trying to understand anything about it. Maybe go back, pick 5 of the line cites, explain what you think they mean and why it concerns you, and maybe we can have a discussion about that. But in the form you presented, you're not looking to talk, you're looking to rant.

Tip o' the hat to werepossum.

How bout this one?

***
Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family
therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)
***

So families having problems and who seek counseling shouldn't be covered under the bill? They should have to pay for that counseling themselves? Sounds like you're trying to prevent families, or at least provide a disinsentive, from getting the help they need to stay together and save their marriage. Why do you hate marriage?

(see how that works when you interpret something like a jackass?)

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Oh, but it's no fun to just get socialized medicine, the fun comes from looting and destroying the health insurance companies along the way. Just think of the millions of people whose jobs will be destroyed! Fun!

On the down side, since government workers earn almost double what private industry workers earn, we'll have to raise taxes quite a bit to stay above water once those private industry workers are replaced with government workers. But that's a small price to pay to ensure that only people found worthy (i.e. by Senators and Representatives) make money on health care.

ROFL, haha good one

Just try and show some proof for that one

Lets see the president is the highest paid government worker, and I can only point you to a few thousand private healthcare workers that make much more than he does (not counting multi million dollar insurance exec bonuses) your argument is so backwards it hurts.

 

[fskimospy]

again, you need to look at the big picture as to where all this leads. bigger gov, more taxes, more gov etc. that is the problem and i honestly don't see how you people can't see this. again, please tell me where the gov has ever done anything "under cost"? and have you worked for the fed gov? i have and at the end of fiscal years they would buy all kinds of shit just so the next year they would get a larger budget, so then the next year, if there was still $$$ leftover, they had to blow through it.

again, i said a reform was needed, but closed door sessions w/ nobody reading the bill is hardly the way to do it.

and what do you mean by "you guys" - i am independent, not rep or dem. the parties are becoming the minority.

also, how old are you? just curious to your life experience

Yes I have worked for the federal government. When I say 'you guys', I mean those in opposition to the current health care bill. Part of me wants to oppose it too, but that's mostly because I don't feel like it goes NEARLY far enough. (I fully support a socialized, universal health insurance system)

The government currently provides medical care at a more efficient rate than private insurance companies. Furthermore, other countries with government run health insurance provide similar levels of care to the US at vastly cheaper rates (even when PPP adjusted). This is something to emulate, not be afraid of.

I honestly couldn't care less about bigger government or more federal taxes. What I care about is what gets me the best bang for my buck, be it public or private. Each and every time you buy something you are taxed by corporations for the cost of providing health care to their workers. You pay thousands of dollars a year in corporate health care taxes and you never even see it because the cost is baked into the price of everything you buy. Public, socialized health care has been shown time and again to be more efficient than what we have, and it is only ideology that prevents us from taking this incredibly obvious step. While this bill doesn't get us there, I feel like it's an important step.

I for one am also acutely concerned with pre-existing conditions as I am recovering from a cancer diagnosis approximately a year ago. (9 months cancer free, wheee!) Considering this bill will cause those with pre-existing conditions to be far less screwed than we were before, I would think this would be a large plus for you.

 

[werepossum]

ROFL, haha good one

Just try and show some proof for that one

Lets see the president is the highest paid government worker, and I can only point you to a few thousand private healthcare workers that make much more than he does (not counting multi million dollar insurance exec bonuses) your argument is so backwards it hurts.

Ah, but this bill doesn't eliminate health care workers, but health care insurance workers. The stats were posted on this very forum not too long ago: the average government worker makes $71,000 before overtime, whereas the average private sector worker makes $41,000 after overtime. In addition, no private industry can equal government benefits. Since we are largely talking about clerical workers, it's eminently reasonable to assume the overall cost will skyrocket once government takes over the insurance companies' work.

Once the Democrats' true plan comes into play - socialized medicine - then you can compare apples to apples on health care workers' salaries. But when we have government doctors I think we'll have more to worry about than how much they are paid.

 

[fskimospy]

Ah, but this bill doesn't eliminate health care workers, but health care insurance workers. The stats were posted on this very forum not too long ago: the average government worker makes $71,000 before overtime, whereas the average private sector worker makes $41,000 after overtime. In addition, no private industry can equal government benefits. Since we are largely talking about clerical workers, it's eminently reasonable to assume the overall cost will skyrocket once government takes over the insurance companies' work.

Once the Democrats' true plan comes into play - socialized medicine - then you can compare apples to apples on health care workers' salaries. But when we have government doctors I think we'll have more to worry about than how much they are paid.

Mostly we'll have to worry about how to spend all the incredible amounts of money we're saving, being that socialized health insurance has been proven to be vastly more efficient in every single other member of the industrialized world without exception.

Scary stuff, I know.

 

[werepossum]

Mostly we'll have to worry about how to spend all the incredible amounts of money we're saving, being that socialized health insurance has been proven to be vastly more efficient in every single other member of the industrialized world without exception.

Scary stuff, I know.

ROFLMAO! I imagine we'll spend it on the same thing we buy with all the other massive savings we get from government - debt.

Incredible amounts of money we're saving! That's a good one!

 

[heyheybooboo]

This same chain letter bullshit has been posted here multiple times, yet again without attribution.

--

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh look, it's the same as what I posted in the other thread. Another socialist admitting that we'll get to socialized medicine incrementally since they can't cram it down our throats all at once. Atleast you people are admitting your tactics now - not too long ago when people like me pointed out your plans- your types scoffed and tried to claim we were just paranoid.

The part you're deliberately avoiding, CSG, is that the current healthcare system is and has been failing incrementally for years, delivering care to fewer and fewer Americans at higher and higher costs.

And, as I've offered, if this private system is so effective and efficient, why are they afraid to compete with an optional govt system? By your reckoning, they ought to leave any public option dying in the dust, right?

If they do a better job than govt possibly can, I think their supporters would be eager to prove that... but they're not...

Maybe because they know what they're trying so desperately to sell really isn't the truth, at all.

 

[piasabird]

In the UK 500 people died while waiting for bypass surgery for heart disease in a 1 year period. How many more people will die ever year in the USA?

 

[theeedude]

In the UK 500 people died while waiting for bypass surgery for heart disease in a 1 year period. How many more people will die ever year in the USA?

45000 now

 

[werepossum]

45000 now

I find that very hard to believe. Of the people I've known who had to have bypass surgery - and there have been a lot - none has waited longer than four days or so. The really bad cases have had the surgery the next day.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's always convenient to rave about poor healthcare in the UK. compared to our own, their expenditures are quite small, so of course any rational person would expect poorer results.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/146992-comparing-u-s-healthcare-spending-with-other-oecd-countries

They've actually increased spending considerably over the last few years, iirc, simply because of the kind of things brought up by piasabird.

Look at the charts- realize that several of the nations who spend a lot less than we do actually achieve better results by any set of metrics one would care to apply.

Which makes arguments against moving in their direction utterly bogus, unless we accept the notion that we can't do it as well as they can...

 

[ShawnD1]

I find that very hard to believe. Of the people I've known who had to have bypass surgery - and there have been a lot - none has waited longer than four days or so. The really bad cases have had the surgery the next day.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes....-lack-of-insurance-to-45000-us-deaths-a-year/

Harvard Medical Study Links Lack of Insurance to 45,000 U.S. Deaths a Year
......................
The Harvard study found that people without health insurance had a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance — as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The risk appears to have increased since 1993, when a similar study found the risk of death was 25 percent greater for the uninsured.

The increase in risk, according to the study, is likely to be a result of at least two factors. One is the greater difficulty the uninsured have today in finding care, as public hospitals have closed or cut back on services. The other is improvements in medical care for insured people with treatable chronic conditions like high blood pressure.

“As health care for the insured gets better, the gap between the insured and uninsured widens,” Dr. Woolhandler said.

The researchers also concluded that other ways of delivering care to the uninsured, like providing them with community health centers, are not adequate substitutes for health insurance. Individuals need the access to hospitals and specialists that comes only with adequate insurance coverage, Dr. Woolhander said.

If I understand correctly, the way to get that number of 45,000 is to compare death rates of insured vs non-insured then multiply that difference by the number of people with no insurance. For example, say 10 people are insured and 10 people are not insured. The insured people have a 25% chance of dying this year and the uninsured have a 50% chance because they don't have proper treatment. If all 20 people were insured, the total deaths this year would be (20)*(0.25) = 5 deaths. With only 10 insured, the death rate is (10)*(0.25) + (10)*(0.50) = 7.5 deaths. I then say 2.5 people died simply because they didn't have insurance.

Think back to that episode of The Simpsons where Homer needs heart surgery. He can't afford what Dr Hibbert wants, so he faces the possibility of dying before the age of 30 (he got Marge pregnant some time around high school and Bart is 10 years old). If he had health insurance, he would get the heart surgery he needs then maybe live until he's 60 or 70. In the show he ended up getting discount surgery from an unlicensed doctor, but most real life people in this situation are not so lucky.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I find that very hard to believe. Of the people I've known who had to have bypass surgery - and there have been a lot - none has waited longer than four days or so. The really bad cases have had the surgery the next day.

You can't really take what he says at face value. He believes that doctors owe allegiance to the state and that physicians who save lives in violation of government regs should be prosecuted.

 

[fskimospy]

You can't really take what he says at face value. He believes that doctors owe allegiance to the state and that physicians who save lives in violation of government regs should be prosecuted.

You're better than this, stop it.