HealthCare - Rationing, Govt Audits of Biz and the list goes on...

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,693
28
91
oh how i wish this stuff was not true, but sadly, it is. for you people that claim this current healt care "reform" is good, what do you have to say about these points?

SOURCE

Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit
books of all employers that self-insure!!

Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE
that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS
RATIONED!!!

Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will
choose your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL
non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to
individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued!

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access
to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.

Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees
and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages
for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels
for Plans -- The Govt will ration your health care!

Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic
appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e.
ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for
Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)
Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals
will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price
fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical
Association - The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees
into public option plan. (NO choice!)

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for
part-time employees AND their families.. (Employees shouldn't get excited
about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits,
and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense.)

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above
who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the
last comment in parenthesis.)
Page 150 Lines 9-13: A business with payroll between $251K &
$401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have
acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt
from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC
Admin.. will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records.

Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section
shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!)
Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician
services for Medicaid Seniors. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what
specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same!
(Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's
time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls
productivity for "private" HC industries.

Page 268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the rental and
purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS -
Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for
whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e....re-admissions).

Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during
initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize
you.

Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The
Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!)

Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion.
(The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)
Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for
exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)

Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: The Govt mandates establishment
of=2 outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)
Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify
Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)

Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of
'special needs people!' Unbelievable!

Page 379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a
"Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)

Page 425 Lines 4-12: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care
Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)

Page 425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and consult
regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's
mandatory!)
Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an
"approved" list of end-of-life resources; & nbsp;guiding you in death. (Also
called 'assisted suicide.')

Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders
on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant"
will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may
include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE
GOVERNMENT?!?)

Page 429 Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors
can write an end-of-life order. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after
getting paid for THAT job!)

Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of
treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)

Page 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit
Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)

Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family
therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services
including defining, creating, and rationing those services.
 
Last edited:

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Attribution? Or just a cut/paste from one of those chain letters of fear and hysteria?
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
Don't get your g-string in a bind because the thing has not even passed yet and sense an incredible amount of cherry picking in the op's thread.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
I started to reply to each point but realized it was a waste of time. Anyone that reads the bill can plainly see the spin you're putting on it. Coupled with the hysterics of the "oh noes, the gubment" folks, there's no way to win.

Literally every one of the items you object to already happens under existing healthcare payors, including private, Medicare and Medicaid. Audits, rationing, committees, etc. It all happens now.

With nonsense posts like these from people that obviously know almost nothing about healthcare, I don't think this country can ever find room for improving anything. You probably haven't even read your own insurance policy.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
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Good post.
Deniers will be deniers. See what a religion it is for them. They just wave their hands and say "you're putting spin on it".
It's always the republicans/conservatives that are actually backing up their viewpoint. The democrats just sling mud and make allegations but never back up their claims. Are they not smart enough to? Or just not diligent enough? Diligent probably, keeps with the theme of the things they support (welfare) etc.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I've a number of problems with so called health care reform, but using the "when in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout" as an argument is silly.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Good post.
Deniers will be deniers. See what a religion it is for them. They just wave their hands and say "you're putting spin on it".
It's always the republicans/conservatives that are actually backing up their viewpoint. The democrats just sling mud and make allegations but never back up their claims. Are they not smart enough to? Or just not diligent enough? Diligent probably, keeps with the theme of the things they support (welfare) etc.
Republicans are morons...Democrats are f'ing geniuses...everybody knows this. The world is so much simpler this way. /s
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Not that I disagree with any of the OP's concerns, but it's worth pointing out that health care, like everything else of value that takes time or treasure to produce and/or distribute, is inherently rationed. There is not and will never be enough wealth in any society for every individual to have as much as he wishes of any limited commodity. I prefer the current method of rationing to the proposed government takeover, but either way health care will be rationed, and either way the rationing is going to get tighter simply because we are still developing new, more expensive drugs and equipment which force more choices. Whether or not you support this proposal should depend on whether you have more faith in the wisdom, benevolence and efficiency of government over the free market - which I would think would be a no-brainer for most people - and about the debate as to whether or not health care should be "free". Unfortunately it's become more about punishing health insurance companies and trying to get something for nothing.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
This same chain letter bullshit has been posted here multiple times, yet again without attribution.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
Good post.
Deniers will be deniers. See what a religion it is for them. They just wave their hands and say "you're putting spin on it".
It's always the republicans/conservatives that are actually backing up their viewpoint. The democrats just sling mud and make allegations but never back up their claims. Are they not smart enough to? Or just not diligent enough? Diligent probably, keeps with the theme of the things they support (welfare) etc.

It has nothing to do with denial. The bill has a lot of problems, but most of those problems rest in the ability to actually execute. Like HIPAA, it doesn't matter what you put in a bill because there's no consistent way of delivering these changes to the industry. But I'm sure in your infinite wisdom you have experience with this and know this.

The spin is the fact that these conditions already exist but you're throwing up your hands now and complaining. If we did this when the private payors exercised their almost unlimited control of the process (think how Wal-Mart controls retail markets, especially the use of EDI--similar to what payors do with HIPAA and its EDI) we wouldn't be where we are, but no one cares when the corporations bitch slap consumers in the face; instead, when the gubment makes a move... oh, NOW it's time to move, but it's already too late.

But keep making it a partisan issue, please. Armchair politicians and faux healthcare practitioners do a great service to this problem by obfuscating the value of discussion points.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,693
28
91
I started to reply to each point but realized it was a waste of time. Anyone that reads the bill can plainly see the spin you're putting on it. Coupled with the hysterics of the "oh noes, the gubment" folks, there's no way to win.

Literally every one of the items you object to already happens under existing healthcare payors, including private, Medicare and Medicaid. Audits, rationing, committees, etc. It all happens now.

With nonsense posts like these from people that obviously know almost nothing about healthcare, I don't think this country can ever find room for improving anything. You probably haven't even read your own insurance policy.

oh the arrogance in your post.....having dealt w/ owcp, dol, ssd and yes my own insurance co, thier docs for my treatments and/or surgeries and being a disabled person, i am sure i know more about my health insurance than you can imagine.

go ahead, make fun of the points listed, that is all you can do but read the bill, the line numbers are there and the data corresponds correctly. i wouldn't have posted this unless it was appropriate. i have been thrown out by the gov in the past due to an injury occurred while working for them so i have a bit of experience of how they work - trust me, you don't want some gov appointed people making decisions on your health care, i would personally have the ins company, at least they have to answer to a higher authority, w/ the gov no answering.

unless of course you believe a "thinning of the herd" is a good thing for the american people, at which point i only wish a disabling condition on you to suffer for years w/ good medicine only to wonder what suffering gov medicine will bring....

keep denying and i am sure you will until you have an serious issue, at which point it will be too late. i am not left nor right in my political views but of the view of reality. if the bill was good i would support it, but it is not, quite the contrary. the pres desire to get this done fast - does that no sound an alarm to you? usually when there is a rush to get something passed there is something that the party passing it doesn't want you to find and that is the case here - the pres doesn't want his dems to have to go home w/ this not being passed as the senators will have to face the people again, and the people don't want this, but as long as they are buffered in DC they don't have to deal in person w/ their constituents.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
oh the arrogance in your post.....

Right back atcha boss, if you were truly interested in discussing this you would post the language your refer to and your own analysis instead of just doing a copy/paste from a source you don't wish to reveal(for obvious reasons).

Yet you blindly trust that blogger X has your own best interests at heart and all of this is accurate.
 

DaveJ

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,337
1
81
oh the arrogance in your post.....having dealt w/ owcp, dol, ssd and yes my own insurance co, thier docs for my treatments and/or surgeries and being a disabled person, i am sure i know more about my health insurance than you can imagine.

go ahead, make fun of the points listed, that is all you can do but read the bill, the line numbers are there and the data corresponds correctly. i wouldn't have posted this unless it was appropriate. i have been thrown out by the gov in the past due to an injury occurred while working for them so i have a bit of experience of how they work - trust me, you don't want some gov appointed people making decisions on your health care, i would personally have the ins company, at least they have to answer to a higher authority, w/ the gov no answering.

unless of course you believe a "thinning of the herd" is a good thing for the american people, at which point i only wish a disabling condition on you to suffer for years w/ good medicine only to wonder what suffering gov medicine will bring....

keep denying and i am sure you will until you have an serious issue, at which point it will be too late. i am not left nor right in my political views but of the view of reality. if the bill was good i would support it, but it is not, quite the contrary. the pres desire to get this done fast - does that no sound an alarm to you? usually when there is a rush to get something passed there is something that the party passing it doesn't want you to find and that is the case here - the pres doesn't want his dems to have to go home w/ this not being passed as the senators will have to face the people again, and the people don't want this, but as long as they are buffered in DC they don't have to deal in person w/ their constituents.

I have extensive experience with private healthcare as well, and let me tell you, my experiences aren't great. I was denied a third surgery to correct my hydrocephalus when my shunt failed again and my neurosurgeon was on vacation. Despite the fact that I was clearly in excruciating pain, I could not get the surgery I desperately needed, despite pleading with multiple doctors and my insurance company. They even had the gall to deny my claims for the first two surgeries, and that took months to resolve, during which I was still dealing with the aftermath of surgery.

You can rail all you want about how government is evil and out to get you, but the truth of the matter is so are the corporations. No one gives a shit about YOU, and the system will not change until we as Americans stand up and start demanding accountability at *all* levels, both from private corporations and our illustrious government.

Unfortunately we all know that will never happen, people like to hide behind their Internet Tough Guy partisan personas, rather than actually taking action in the real world.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,693
28
91
Right back atcha boss, if you were truly interested in discussing this you would post the language your refer to and your own analysis instead of just doing a copy/paste from a source you don't wish to reveal(for obvious reasons).

Yet you blindly trust that blogger X has your own best interests at heart and all of this is accurate.

the info is already given - page number and line number...what more do you need?
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,693
28
91
I have extensive experience with private healthcare as well, and let me tell you, my experiences aren't great. I was denied a third surgery to correct my hydrocephalus when my shunt failed again and my neurosurgeon was on vacation. Despite the fact that I was clearly in excruciating pain, I could not get the surgery I desperately needed, despite pleading with multiple doctors and my insurance company. They even had the gall to deny my claims for the first two surgeries, and that took months to resolve, during which I was still dealing with the aftermath of surgery.

You can rail all you want about how government is evil and out to get you, but the truth of the matter is so are the corporations. No one gives a shit about YOU, and the system will not change until we as Americans stand up and start demanding accountability at *all* levels, both from private corporations and our illustrious government.

Unfortunately we all know that will never happen, people like to hide behind their Internet Tough Guy partisan personas, rather than actually taking action in the real world.

i feel for your situation. the situations i have experienced, the gov has been much worse than what you describe. granted i have not had the same issues as you w/ my private insurance, but when dealing w/ the gov it was much worse than your experience. may i ask who is your insurer?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
There is rationing based on profit today. People being promoted ans given bonuses for denying care. Rationing is inevitable.. but it needs to be non profit based.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
oh the arrogance in your post.....having dealt w/ owcp, dol, ssd and yes my own insurance co, thier docs for my treatments and/or surgeries and being a disabled person, i am sure i know more about my health insurance than you can imagine.

I truly am sorry to hear about what you have to deal with, but you also have to understand that experiences differ. Unfortunately, it's not the CONSUMER that really matters now. Making this a consumer-driven industry, truly, is what has been at the heart of this the whole time.

But that wasn't even my point. I am taking issue with how the business of healthcare is handled, be it private or public. And I am taking issue with the words in this bill and the various exegesis' that seem to exist on it. One simply cannot understand the content of the bill without truly understanding how healthcare really works; unfortunately, being even a heavy consumer doesn't tell you much of anything other than how frustrating it can be at times.

Understanding is in the minds of every office administrator, COO, patient financial services person, etc. inside an organization, both payor and provider. I am tangentially involved, because my company provides services to these people and to these institutions. We need to lean on these folks as much as possible as they truly understand the nuance of what's involved.

go ahead, make fun of the points listed, that is all you can do but read the bill, the line numbers are there and the data corresponds correctly. i wouldn't have posted this unless it was appropriate. i have been thrown out by the gov in the past due to an injury occurred while working for them so i have a bit of experience of how they work - trust me, you don't want some gov appointed people making decisions on your health care, i would personally have the ins company, at least they have to answer to a higher authority, w/ the gov no answering.

I think the primary difference between us is the idea that ins companies answer "to a higher authority". I've seen first-hand the control they have, and though there are regulatory bodies that exist, you're STILL talking government control and the effort of the payors to avoid them. It just doesn't fix the problem.

unless of course you believe a "thinning of the herd" is a good thing for the american people, at which point i only wish a disabling condition on you to suffer for years w/ good medicine only to wonder what suffering gov medicine will bring....

I would certainly never say that. If anything, I'm a person that believes that the free market is best for innovation, not regulation. I sincerely hope we can continue to fully unleash the innovation the occurs in healthcare as a result of small and big companies.

But regulation still has to happen and we can't escape that. It's not a matter of people getting rich. It's a matter of the safety and health of Americans. Fraud will always happen for those looking for financial gain, but when it's at the expense of someone's health and not just their wallet, we're in a new category altogether.

keep denying and i am sure you will until you have an serious issue, at which point it will be too late. i am not left nor right in my political views but of the view of reality. if the bill was good i would support it, but it is not, quite the contrary. the pres desire to get this done fast - does that no sound an alarm to you? usually when there is a rush to get something passed there is something that the party passing it doesn't want you to find and that is the case here - the pres doesn't want his dems to have to go home w/ this not being passed as the senators will have to face the people again, and the people don't want this, but as long as they are buffered in DC they don't have to deal in person w/ their constituents.

Is this addressed to me? My arguments are precisely because I have experienced the problems associated with chronic conditions. Though not me personally, my company again sees the workflow and processes of how claims are triaged, paid (or not) and how denials are processed.

I want what's right for the people first, and that's making this industry consumer-driven. So long as the private payors, or potentially gov payors in the new plan, retain this control we will have none.

My final point: You have an emperor now or an emperor later. We need to stop acting like it's freedom now and bondage later. Fix the payors! That's the bottom of the line. Fix the payors or we'll never make progress.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Unfortunately, it's not the CONSUMER that really matters now. Making this a consumer-driven industry, truly, is what has been at the heart of this the whole time.

It is a consumer driven industry. If there is no consumer, there is no health insurance industry. If you don't like your current insurance than *CHOOSE* a different provider.

The fact of the matter is most people are too lazy to take initiative over this.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,693
28
91
It is a consumer driven industry. If there is no consumer, there is no health insurance industry. If you don't like your current insurance than *CHOOSE* a different provider.

The fact of the matter is most people are too lazy to take initiative over this.

not like you get a lot of options to choose from
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
It is a consumer driven industry. If there is no consumer, there is no health insurance industry. If you don't like your current insurance than *CHOOSE* a different provider.

The fact of the matter is most people are too lazy to take initiative over this.

You're an idiot.

You can't choose your health insurance provider on any meaningful level. If you work, you are beholden to your employer's health care provider, which is much cheaper on every level than if you bought your own policy (pre-tax vs post-tax dollars is just one criterion). Secondly, if you have any sort of health problem, the cost of insurance is prohibitively expensive. Finally, if you have a pre-existing condition, you are fucked, you need your work health insurance or you don't have insurance period.

Quit being such a fucking obtuse idiot. Seriously, it's a goddamn shame these forums are what they are, in no small part thanks to you. We need some moderation on these boards. It's a fucking shame that these forums are worse than the cracked.com P&N forums.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,716
47,396
136
I like how everyone already ignored the complete obliteration of this cut and pasted chain email by politifact.

As Pulsar already linked to:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m.../30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m.../30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m.../30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/

TLDR: bob's post is a pants-on-fire massive lie. Nearly every single point in it is massively distorted or simply invented out of thin air.

But yeah guys, Republicans are really backing up what they say... hahahahhaa. How many chain emails do people have to fall for before they stop cutting and pasting what they get in their inbox? I really do wonder soccerball, who is too stupid here?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
medical care is already rationed. law of economics 1: goods and services are scarce and must be rationed.