Health insurance companies predate the weakest consummer

[sandorski]

Health care and health insurance are very different things.

They are, but they are closely intertwined and a large part of what gives us our superior Lifespan.

 

[her209]

Distribution of risk / risk reduction through pooling. That's the principle behind insurance, it's not about the prices through volume/efficiency, it's about reduction of risk through pooling.

How does distribution of risk / risk reduction change through pooling, i.e., how is it different when you have a pool of 100,000 people from one employer compared to 100,000 people who bought individually?

 

[1prophet]

If they wanted to, they could, if not, they wouldn't. They can price their products the way they want to. It's up to you if you want to purchase from them or from some other vendor.

So they can discriminate based on who the buyer is regardless if they were to buy in quantity?

 

[sandorski]

How does distribution of risk / risk reduction change through pooling, i.e., how is it different when you have a pool of 100,000 people from one employer compared to 100,000 people who bought individually?

It shouldn't matter at all, but I'm sure the Insurance Corps don't mind insisting on a Higher Price and receiving it.

 

[BigDH01]

How does distribution of risk / risk reduction change through pooling, i.e., how is it different when you have a pool of 100,000 people from one employer compared to 100,000 people who bought individually?

Effectively, it will mean unhealthy people won't be covered. As a healthy young person under my employer's plan, I overpay because I am subsidizing the older and sicker people on staff. In return, I am guaranteed that if I develop cancer or any other serious acute or chronic condition, my premiums won't be raised to the extent that I can't afford them. Being part of the pool assures me stability.

If I get thrown off my employer's plan, I'll have to buy as an individual. In the short-term, this is beneficial as my premiums will reflect my personal risk. If I developed a severe or chronic condition, my premiums will be raised accordingly. This might mean the premium becomes unaffordable.

If we throw everyone into the market to purchase their own insurance, it will basically mean that healthy people seek the cheapest insurance possible while premiums for sick people will drastically rise as a whole. It will be an end of subsidies for the working ill. Whether these people would still get care they can't afford will probably be a matter of policy.

Personally, even if offered individual plans, I'd like to be a part of a pool for stability and the bargaining power it provides me. Being in a pool with coworkers is a matter of convenience and it does mean that the healthy subsidize the sick. If people formed coops outside of work, I worry that they'd kick out a person as soon as they got sick to keep premiums low.

 

[Fern]

Exactly, wholesale pricing for bulk purchases is not a good model for group rates in insurance.

Um, if I come to you with a desire to purchase 'one unit' do you think I've got the same barganing leverage as the guy who comes to purchase a thousand?

Might be that the HI companies would like to charge more but can't because the purchaser has leverage.

I would imagine that there are some savings from the bulk purchaser too. Do you want to do the accounting, the billing, keep up with the accounts receivable, and collections a thousand times, or do just one bill etc for the whole one thousand once?

I'm guessing that group plans include a diverse pool of people of all ages etc. In a group plan it just may be that some of the lower risk people are paying more under the group model and that helps subsidize those of a higher risk.

Could also be some statistics justifying lower rates by showing people employed in bigger companies have more stable jobs and less stress leading to fewer health problems. And once you leave employment there, you are out of the group coverage.

Frn

 

[xj0hnx]

For thousands of years 40 years Old was being very Old.

So? Your lifespan doesn't increase, or decrease with the purchase of health care insurance.

 

[PokerGuy]

They are, but they are closely intertwined and a large part of what gives us our superior Lifespan.

Nonsense. Health care is what has increased our life spans dramatically, health insurance that covers everything is a relatively new phenomenon and hasn't really impacted life span. Health insurance should provide a safety net, much like car insurance provides a safety net, it doesn't pay for your gas refill or vehicle maintenance.

 

[PokerGuy]

How does distribution of risk / risk reduction change through pooling, i.e., how is it different when you have a pool of 100,000 people from one employer compared to 100,000 people who bought individually?

There is more variability in individual purchasers than there is when you get a block of employees from an employer. Remember, with individual purchasers, there is a degree of adverse selection -- the people purchasing are also the ones who are more likely to incur expenses. With an employer or group plan, the risk is effectively diversified because everyone is included.

 

[ElFenix]

Nonsense. Health care is what has increased our life spans dramatically, health insurance that covers everything is a relatively new phenomenon and hasn't really impacted life span. Health insurance should provide a safety net, much like car insurance provides a safety net, it doesn't pay for your gas refill or vehicle maintenance.

clean water supplies have done more than medicine.

For thousands of years 40 years Old was being very Old.

that's not quite true. if a person lived through childhood they generally lived into their 60s and beyond even in prehistoric times. this made news recently. certainly in 1800s and even in roman times they didn't consider people very old at 40. and neither of them had anything close to modern medicine.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

That's right. Liberals want you to work for free. Liberals want you to go to med school, graduate with 200k of debt and make minimum wage. That's what Democrats want for you. That's Democrats' version of "equality". Businesses are evil, doctors be damned if they want to start their own practice.

You're able, and you should provide for everybody. Most liberals have never worked hard and did anything substantial with their lives and they're only looking to redistribute. Scientists (many of whom don't get paid a whole lot), MDs, Engineers, etc all work for free while Democratic trial lawyers and welfare queens leech off of everybody's elses' hard work.

I expected the "THEM LIBUUREEELS" reponses, but you set the dumbass bar at new levels.

 

[sandorski]

So? Your lifespan doesn't increase, or decrease with the purchase of health care insurance.

Health Insurance makes HealthCare Affordable for me. Thus increasing my Lifespan.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

contact your state board of insurance




damn those doctors for their high standard of living!

or do you really just mean the payment systems for medical care delivery shouldn't be a for profit industry?



edit:

Yes, I mean everybody in healthcare should work for free Just like all military personel, policeman, firefighters, teachers, FBI agents, etc... etc... work for free!!! surely you can't be that dense.

I just want to see the vast majority of my HC dollars going to the doc, not shareholders and admininistrators and politico's that don't do a damn thing for me but take my money getting 90% like they do now. And I want to see the doc paid well based on the value of the procedure he performed, not what he can fuck the insurance company for to try and make up for the fucking he expects from them.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
I just want to see the vast majority of my HC dollars going to the doc, not shareholders and admininistrators and politico's that don't do a damn thing for me but take my money getting 90% like they do now. And I want to see the doc paid well based on the value of the procedure he performed, not what he can fuck the insurance company for to try and make up for the fucking he expects from them.

So don't buy health insurance and just for the doctor when you need him.

Fern

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

What is a "consummer"? Is that a con that occurs during the summer? Or a con that is released in the summer?

 

[PokerGuy]

So they can discriminate based on who the buyer is regardless if they were to buy in quantity?

The company is not discriminating based on who the buyer is, they are offering different prices to group buyers versus individual buyers. There is no law that says a company has to sell something at the same rate to individual buyers versus group volume buyers. The company does not have to justify it's price structure, you are free to purchase from someone else if you don't like it.

 

[xj0hnx]

Health Insurance makes HealthCare Affordable for me. Thus increasing my Lifespan.

No, it doesn't. If you lost your insurance tomorrow, your life span wouldn't suddenly shorten. How it's paid doesn't matter, what extends your life is health care.

 

[ElFenix]

So don't buy health insurance and just for the doctor when you need him.

Fern

obvious answer is obvious

 

[sandorski]

No, it doesn't. If you lost your insurance tomorrow, your life span wouldn't suddenly shorten. How it's paid doesn't matter, what extends your life is health care.

If I didn't have Health Insurance and had to Pay for my own HealthCare, I'd be dead already.

 

[xj0hnx]

So don't buy health insurance and just for the doctor when you need him.

Fern

Why do that when you can have insurance pay 80% of the cost, and then cry that their rates are going up and it's not fair?

 

[xj0hnx]

If I didn't have Health Insurance and had to Pay for my own HealthCare, I'd be dead already.

So what? Insurance didn't save your life, the medicine did. If you'd had the money to pay and not use insurance the result would have been the same, just like some that gets a terminal disease and has excellent insurance, the insurance doesn't save them.

 

[her209]

Effectively, it will mean unhealthy people won't be covered. As a healthy young person under my employer's plan, I overpay because I am subsidizing the older and sicker people on staff. In return, I am guaranteed that if I develop cancer or any other serious acute or chronic condition, my premiums won't be raised to the extent that I can't afford them. Being part of the pool assures me stability.

If I get thrown off my employer's plan, I'll have to buy as an individual. In the short-term, this is beneficial as my premiums will reflect my personal risk. If I developed a severe or chronic condition, my premiums will be raised accordingly. This might mean the premium becomes unaffordable.

If we throw everyone into the market to purchase their own insurance, it will basically mean that healthy people seek the cheapest insurance possible while premiums for sick people will drastically rise as a whole. It will be an end of subsidies for the working ill. Whether these people would still get care they can't afford will probably be a matter of policy.

Personally, even if offered individual plans, I'd like to be a part of a pool for stability and the bargaining power it provides me. Being in a pool with coworkers is a matter of convenience and it does mean that the healthy subsidize the sick. If people formed coops outside of work, I worry that they'd kick out a person as soon as they got sick to keep premiums low.

All you've managed to do is explain the shift of costs from the unhealthy person to the healthy person.

 

[HumblePie]

Give me a fucking break, people have survived thousands of years without health care insurance. Health care insurance is a luxury item. If people were responsible and used health care insurance right, we likely wouldn't even be having this debate, but since everyone wants to put everything from a bottle of aspirin to a check-up on their insurance instead of just paying for it out of pocket, it has set an environment for prices to skyrocket.

So lets see, you've never needed health care? Never needed a tetanus shot? Never had a staph infection? Never had the measles or whooping cough? Never needed a vaccine in your life?

You really have ZERO CLUE about health care. Most Americans get it from birth. Actually you are probably like most Americans and were born in a hospital. Know why? Because humans really don't do to well having babies. Most women and children before healthcare was wide spread in industrialized worlds would DIE.

Then there was rampant diseases, infections, and tons of stuff you as an American citizen take for granted because of your health care. Because healthcare has brought you into this world, vaccinated you, and allows you to buy over the counter drugs when needed, you can go much longer in life with out "needing health care." Actually, if it wasn't for the fact I play sports and typically get sports related injuries, I would rarely have to see a doctor as well.

Yes, healthcare is needed more as you get older to extend your life. Without modern medicine, we would all be dying at the ripe old age of 40.

Give me a break. Healthcare is NOT a luxury. Luxury is something defined as being able to live without. Well get this bud, without healthcare you DO NOT LIVE. Just as the absence of water, food, or air will kill you, so will the absence of healthcare. It only takes a little longer.


The fact that healthcare is such a major for profit scheme is what is right now bringing down our society. There is no supply and demand structure because, while you may not need it now, EVERYONE needs healthcare at some point in their lives if they want to continue living. Go troll elsewhere.

 

[sandorski]

So what? Insurance didn't save your life, the medicine did. If you'd had the money to pay and not use insurance the result would have been the same, just like some that gets a terminal disease and has excellent insurance, the insurance doesn't save them.

/facepalm

It's amazing the lengths people go to to defend a poorly made point.

 

[xj0hnx]

/facepalm

It's amazing the lengths people go to to defend a poorly made point.

/Facepalm x2 4u

So according to you, if I go rob a bank so I can afford lifesaving medical treatment, than robbing banks is extending my lifespan. It's so unfair that robbing banks is illegal because robbing banks extends lifespans.

I know you wish health insurance = health care, but it doesn't. They are different, and that's why this debate is flawed.