health care reform- what exactly are they proposing?

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher
It is 11:29 pm and Our Emergency room is full. I have seen 12 patients so far and overall none of them are here inappropriately. I haven't a clue what if any insurance my patients have, all are treated equally.

I make about the same as other professionals, living on the same street as several lawyers, businessmen and bankers. I do find that they work neither nights or holidays. I also find that although they may be successfull in their field, I would not classify them as top of the class. Sure my perception of intellect is focused on Science so I may be discounting them unfairly. However, I certainly would not trust any of them with my life.

Although, I believe that our system has many faults, I don't believe a sociallist system will lead to anything but substandard care, laziness, and rationing. Every field requires incentives to maintain standards. To maintain its competative drive to draw qualified applicants, any field must offer competative reimbursement. Many will claim that the AMA limits the number of graduates, but I will state from personal experience that opening the doors to more less qualified applicants will only serve to lessen the quality of care that our system provides. Thousands of foriegn trained physicians attempt to qualify to practice medicine in this country every year and most cannot pass the exam.

Many also quote the 30 dollar tylenol but fail to realize that this is not the price that insurance companies pay. On average, any bill submitted by a hospital is paid at 10 cents on the dollar. The rack rates are inflated to compensate for this. The most true measure of hospital revenues is that in our country the vast majority of hospitals are losing money, relying mainly on charitable donations to operate.

Also many like to point to the unhealthy lifestyle of americans, although I agree that we need to and are addressing these issues, the impact on total health expenditures is small.

Ultimately, the system is flawed because of a lack of capitalist pressures. Health Insurance companies operate with relative monopolies, selling their product to large employers not employees and making non-group policies prohibitive. They operate without consequence to unfair practices and without true competition. They are free to set their rates and policies, exerting oppressive pressure on all but the largest customers and the largest providers.

I am unsure how a federally controlled insurance program would affect this system, but I will say that those who are making policy no less about the consequences of their decisions than a fish knows about clouds.

So very very wrong. Capitalism is the problem regarding the HealthCare Industry. It already Rations care, it already has placed a Bureaucrat between Patient/Doctor, it already has the worst Efficiency in the Industrialized World.

Hospitals are struggling because the Insurance Industry is offloading Costs onto them. "Socialized" Healthcare is proved, it is Cheaper, more Efficient, gives as good or better results overall, and gives Full Coverage of the Population.

More Capitalism? Give your head a shake.

Be my guest, try it. You won't like it.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: mattpegher

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher
It is 11:29 pm and Our Emergency room is full. I have seen 12 patients so far and overall none of them are here inappropriately. I haven't a clue what if any insurance my patients have, all are treated equally.

I make about the same as other professionals, living on the same street as several lawyers, businessmen and bankers. I do find that they work neither nights or holidays. I also find that although they may be successfull in their field, I would not classify them as top of the class. Sure my perception of intellect is focused on Science so I may be discounting them unfairly. However, I certainly would not trust any of them with my life.

Although, I believe that our system has many faults, I don't believe a sociallist system will lead to anything but substandard care, laziness, and rationing. Every field requires incentives to maintain standards. To maintain its competative drive to draw qualified applicants, any field must offer competative reimbursement. Many will claim that the AMA limits the number of graduates, but I will state from personal experience that opening the doors to more less qualified applicants will only serve to lessen the quality of care that our system provides. Thousands of foriegn trained physicians attempt to qualify to practice medicine in this country every year and most cannot pass the exam.

Many also quote the 30 dollar tylenol but fail to realize that this is not the price that insurance companies pay. On average, any bill submitted by a hospital is paid at 10 cents on the dollar. The rack rates are inflated to compensate for this. The most true measure of hospital revenues is that in our country the vast majority of hospitals are losing money, relying mainly on charitable donations to operate.

Also many like to point to the unhealthy lifestyle of americans, although I agree that we need to and are addressing these issues, the impact on total health expenditures is small.

Ultimately, the system is flawed because of a lack of capitalist pressures. Health Insurance companies operate with relative monopolies, selling their product to large employers not employees and making non-group policies prohibitive. They operate without consequence to unfair practices and without true competition. They are free to set their rates and policies, exerting oppressive pressure on all but the largest customers and the largest providers.

I am unsure how a federally controlled insurance program would affect this system, but I will say that those who are making policy no less about the consequences of their decisions than a fish knows about clouds.

So very very wrong. Capitalism is the problem regarding the HealthCare Industry. It already Rations care, it already has placed a Bureaucrat between Patient/Doctor, it already has the worst Efficiency in the Industrialized World.

Hospitals are struggling because the Insurance Industry is offloading Costs onto them. "Socialized" Healthcare is proved, it is Cheaper, more Efficient, gives as good or better results overall, and gives Full Coverage of the Population.

More Capitalism? Give your head a shake.

Be my guest, try it. You won't like it.

"Tried" it many times, it's great.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
do away with for-profit insurance companies.
...

Let's just do away with all business. Why are farmers allowed to profit? Why are auto companies allowed to try to profit? Why are home builders allowed to profit?

Because, while not perfect, is the best system to achieve the best results.

Move everything to government control? You're replacing greed with laziness & corruption.

You guys seriously fall for this BS hook, line, & sinker. That's the lone argument they ever give in favor of government run health-care, "the only other option is greedy profit driven corporations bathing in your money, you don't want that do you?" :roll:

You do realize insurance companies do more than just steal your money, right?

Look, this argument can be turned around the other way to rail against anything the government currently does. The only difference is that BS is from teh private sector, and some here have bought that hook, line, & sinker too.

Insurance companies do a lot in the current marketplace. However, the point is that the very nature of healthcare itself makes it an unfair marketplace. You cannot simply deny yourself life saving care nor shop around when you need emergency care or have a preexisting condition. This is why you cannot simply compare them to the Auto/Home/etc insurance markets. Can't afford to fix your car? You go without it. Can't afford car insurance? You don't drive until you do. Can't afford health insurance? You DIE.

Insurance companies do help mitigate risk for catastrophic costs, but if a proper healthcare system were set in place, it would make these companies obsolete. All that cost and overhead, gone - money we could use elsewhere to ensure better preventative care.

i shot him down already. he knows his argument is a poor one and very flawed.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
It is 11:29 pm and Our Emergency room is full. I have seen 12 patients so far and overall none of them are here inappropriately. I haven't a clue what if any insurance my patients have, all are treated equally.

I make about the same as other professionals, living on the same street as several lawyers, businessmen and bankers. I do find that they work neither nights or holidays. I also find that although they may be successfull in their field, I would not classify them as top of the class. Sure my perception of intellect is focused on Science so I may be discounting them unfairly. However, I certainly would not trust any of them with my life.

Although, I believe that our system has many faults, I don't believe a sociallist system will lead to anything but substandard care, laziness, and rationing. Every field requires incentives to maintain standards. To maintain its competative drive to draw qualified applicants, any field must offer competative reimbursement. Many will claim that the AMA limits the number of graduates, but I will state from personal experience that opening the doors to more less qualified applicants will only serve to lessen the quality of care that our system provides. Thousands of foriegn trained physicians attempt to qualify to practice medicine in this country every year and most cannot pass the exam.

Many also quote the 30 dollar tylenol but fail to realize that this is not the price that insurance companies pay. On average, any bill submitted by a hospital is paid at 10 cents on the dollar. The rack rates are inflated to compensate for this. The most true measure of hospital revenues is that in our country the vast majority of hospitals are losing money, relying mainly on charitable donations to operate.

Also many like to point to the unhealthy lifestyle of americans, although I agree that we need to and are addressing these issues, the impact on total health expenditures is small.

Ultimately, the system is flawed because of a lack of capitalist pressures. Health Insurance companies operate with relative monopolies, selling their product to large employers not employees and making non-group policies prohibitive. They operate without consequence to unfair practices and without true competition. They are free to set their rates and policies, exerting oppressive pressure on all but the largest customers and the largest providers.

I am unsure how a federally controlled insurance program would affect this system, but I will say that those who are making policy no less about the consequences of their decisions than a fish knows about clouds.

I appreciate that you posted this, though I don't necessarily agree with all the conclusions. I think AMA is keeping the field artificially thin, which is why you are working nights and holidays. And this is while a lot of people don't see doctors due to lack of coverage. This may not be applicable to ER, since that's where everyone goes as last resort, but even in my local clinic, I have to wait 3 weeks to see my primary care physician, and can only see a physician assistant or maybe pray for an opening this week. They are simply overbooked, and this is after they filter out everyone without insurance, since this clinic does not have an ER. At some point, the lack of time and concentration a doctor can devote to a patient begins to hurt the quality of care more than having having higher artificially high selectivity due to medical school place limitations helps it. I don't have a problem being treated by a physician assistant as long as they know their limitations and when to refer me to a specialist. It's no different than care I got from some of the doctors I saw because my primary care was not booked for weeks. If anything, this person cared a lot more about my well being and spent more time with me. Solution is definitely in having more tiered approach, if we want to have affordable access to care, because having someone with a doctorate level degree treating everyone is not very practical, the educational system simply won't provide enough doctors. Even engineers who design airplanes and nuclear power plants are not all PhDs. Also, as far as socialized medicine, we already have Medicare. You can complain about it, but most of the seniors who have it would have a snowball's chance in hell of obtaining private health coverage they can afford without it, which would turn our health care crisis into a full blown disaster by adding millions of high cost uninsured patients to the system. So we already take care of the biggest part of the problem with medicare, what we need to do is extend it so that people who cannot get affordable coverage from private market can get it through medicare on some sort of sliding pay scale that is based on their income.

 

[mattpegher]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher
It is 11:29 pm and Our Emergency room is full. I have seen 12 patients so far and overall none of them are here inappropriately. I haven't a clue what if any insurance my patients have, all are treated equally.

I make about the same as other professionals, living on the same street as several lawyers, businessmen and bankers. I do find that they work neither nights or holidays. I also find that although they may be successfull in their field, I would not classify them as top of the class. Sure my perception of intellect is focused on Science so I may be discounting them unfairly. However, I certainly would not trust any of them with my life.

Although, I believe that our system has many faults, I don't believe a sociallist system will lead to anything but substandard care, laziness, and rationing. Every field requires incentives to maintain standards. To maintain its competative drive to draw qualified applicants, any field must offer competative reimbursement. Many will claim that the AMA limits the number of graduates, but I will state from personal experience that opening the doors to more less qualified applicants will only serve to lessen the quality of care that our system provides. Thousands of foriegn trained physicians attempt to qualify to practice medicine in this country every year and most cannot pass the exam.

Many also quote the 30 dollar tylenol but fail to realize that this is not the price that insurance companies pay. On average, any bill submitted by a hospital is paid at 10 cents on the dollar. The rack rates are inflated to compensate for this. The most true measure of hospital revenues is that in our country the vast majority of hospitals are losing money, relying mainly on charitable donations to operate.

Also many like to point to the unhealthy lifestyle of americans, although I agree that we need to and are addressing these issues, the impact on total health expenditures is small.

Ultimately, the system is flawed because of a lack of capitalist pressures. Health Insurance companies operate with relative monopolies, selling their product to large employers not employees and making non-group policies prohibitive. They operate without consequence to unfair practices and without true competition. They are free to set their rates and policies, exerting oppressive pressure on all but the largest customers and the largest providers.

I am unsure how a federally controlled insurance program would affect this system, but I will say that those who are making policy no less about the consequences of their decisions than a fish knows about clouds.

So very very wrong. Capitalism is the problem regarding the HealthCare Industry. It already Rations care, it already has placed a Bureaucrat between Patient/Doctor, it already has the worst Efficiency in the Industrialized World.

Hospitals are struggling because the Insurance Industry is offloading Costs onto them. "Socialized" Healthcare is proved, it is Cheaper, more Efficient, gives as good or better results overall, and gives Full Coverage of the Population.

More Capitalism? Give your head a shake.

Be my guest, try it. You won't like it.

"Tried" it many times, it's great.

How? Where? If you are a citizen of another country, then your grasp of our system is inadequate. If you are a citizen of these united states, then your experience with the systems of other countries is inadequate. If you are a recent imigrant, than you are likely biased by perception of a free system over one you must pay for. Either way I, do not freely grant you any authority in this subject. If you are a physician in another country than I would gladly accept that you at least have some authoriy about socialized medicine and if you were a physician in this country you at least would see the pitfalls. Anyone can claim to have an informed opinion about this topic but you fail to give any logical discussion about how our fears regarding rationing and lower quality of medicine are unfounded. Certainly, the perception of the success of socialism as global mechanism in the soviet union must have some implication to initiating socialism in any aspect of our society. Please explain to me how a system without incentive will lead to anything but lower productivity and corruption.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: mattpegher

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: mattpegher
It is 11:29 pm and Our Emergency room is full. I have seen 12 patients so far and overall none of them are here inappropriately. I haven't a clue what if any insurance my patients have, all are treated equally.

I make about the same as other professionals, living on the same street as several lawyers, businessmen and bankers. I do find that they work neither nights or holidays. I also find that although they may be successfull in their field, I would not classify them as top of the class. Sure my perception of intellect is focused on Science so I may be discounting them unfairly. However, I certainly would not trust any of them with my life.

Although, I believe that our system has many faults, I don't believe a sociallist system will lead to anything but substandard care, laziness, and rationing. Every field requires incentives to maintain standards. To maintain its competative drive to draw qualified applicants, any field must offer competative reimbursement. Many will claim that the AMA limits the number of graduates, but I will state from personal experience that opening the doors to more less qualified applicants will only serve to lessen the quality of care that our system provides. Thousands of foriegn trained physicians attempt to qualify to practice medicine in this country every year and most cannot pass the exam.

Many also quote the 30 dollar tylenol but fail to realize that this is not the price that insurance companies pay. On average, any bill submitted by a hospital is paid at 10 cents on the dollar. The rack rates are inflated to compensate for this. The most true measure of hospital revenues is that in our country the vast majority of hospitals are losing money, relying mainly on charitable donations to operate.

Also many like to point to the unhealthy lifestyle of americans, although I agree that we need to and are addressing these issues, the impact on total health expenditures is small.

Ultimately, the system is flawed because of a lack of capitalist pressures. Health Insurance companies operate with relative monopolies, selling their product to large employers not employees and making non-group policies prohibitive. They operate without consequence to unfair practices and without true competition. They are free to set their rates and policies, exerting oppressive pressure on all but the largest customers and the largest providers.

I am unsure how a federally controlled insurance program would affect this system, but I will say that those who are making policy no less about the consequences of their decisions than a fish knows about clouds.

So very very wrong. Capitalism is the problem regarding the HealthCare Industry. It already Rations care, it already has placed a Bureaucrat between Patient/Doctor, it already has the worst Efficiency in the Industrialized World.

Hospitals are struggling because the Insurance Industry is offloading Costs onto them. "Socialized" Healthcare is proved, it is Cheaper, more Efficient, gives as good or better results overall, and gives Full Coverage of the Population.

More Capitalism? Give your head a shake.

Be my guest, try it. You won't like it.

"Tried" it many times, it's great.

How? Where? If you are a citizen of another country, then your grasp of our system is inadequate. If you are a citizen of these united states, then your experience with the systems of other countries is inadequate. If you are a recent imigrant, than you are likely biased by perception of a free system over one you must pay for. Either way I, do not freely grant you any authority in this subject. If you are a physician in another country than I would gladly accept that you at least have some authoriy about socialized medicine and if you were a physician in this country you at least would see the pitfalls. Anyone can claim to have an informed opinion about this topic but you fail to give any logical discussion about how our fears regarding rationing and lower quality of medicine are unfounded. Certainly, the perception of the success of socialism as global mechanism in the soviet union must have some implication to initiating socialism in any aspect of our society. Please explain to me how a system without incentive will lead to anything but lower productivity and corruption.

I'm Canadian. I've heard plenty about the US system to know the sorry state it is in. Canada, Australia, most of Europe have superior(usually called "Socialist" in the US) systems that resemble nothing like the Soviet Union. If that's what you're thinking about you are way out in left field.

You already have "Rationing" and all those buzzwords you keep throwing around. Yours' is just worse than any of the systems you fear. I don't have a Bureaucrat telling me what Doctor/Hospital I can use, refusing to Fund my Treatments, or simply cancelling my coverage because they don't want to Pay. I show the Doctor/Hospital/Clinic my CareCard, Drivers License(for ID purposes), then they Treat me.

 

[theeedude]

Exactly, if there is no rationing in the US system, someone please explain to me the reason for existence of term "pre-treatment authorization."

 

[mattpegher]

I have one further query, how is malpractice handled in canada and europe? Approx 1/4 of my gross income goes to malpractice insurance.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
I have one further query, how is malpractice handled in canada and europe? Approx 1/4 of my gross income goes to malpractice insurance.

that's because medicine is responsible for a LOT of deaths (iirc, i think iatrogenic care is still the #3 or 4 leading cause of death in the country and #1 for mortality AND morbidity). the more people stay healthy, the less you'll end up having to pay for malpractice insurance.

i'm not saying you're going to kill anyone by mistake... i'm just saying that's what most of malpractice insurance bases it's figures on.

the sooner our system goes towards HEALTH care, rather than sick care (i.e. medical doctor visits), the less you'll end up paying for malpractice insurance.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Apparently, walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets are an important part of the Democrats' vision of "health care reform".

In health bill, billions for parks, paths

"Sweeping healthcare legislation working its way through Congress is more than an effort to provide insurance to millions of Americans without coverage. Tucked within is a provision that could provide billions of dollars for walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets."

I thought no more earmarks? No more pork barrel spending? I guess jungle gyms are an important component of universal health care for all!

:roll:

the problem is HEALTH care. the reason why we're in this predicament is because we spend billions on sick care. health isn't promoted or enforced for shit.

you, as a typical american, lack the foresight to realize that walking paths, jungle gyms, and farmers' markets will go a LONG way in changing the path in america's health destiny.

most of the shit you get at the grocery store has NO healthy component to it whatsoever, even produce. most of it has been genetically altered and is devoid of any nutritional value. having organically grown food out in the market and plenty of it will drive down the cost of HEALTHY food, which will promote healthier eating lifestyles. more jungle gyms will promote more kids to get off their fat asses and play outside. studies prove that kids who go out and play rather than stay inside and watch tv and play games have a much healthier mind and body growing up. more walkways promote more people to get out and go for a walk and do something healthy everyday, which will ALSO promote health.

promoting health is the way to go. all we do now, however, is promote sick care... for example, when you turn your tv on and see all those bullshit commercials telling the public that they need medication x, y, and z for problems 1, 2, and/or 3 with side-effects a, b, and c.

the healthier people are, the less "healthcare" (which is actually sick care) will cost.

get it?

I'm not sure dumping money into parks + street lights will change people's attitude on healthy living. I don't think GE food is inferior in terms of nutrition. Sure if it goes into nature it might screw things up, but that's not what we're talking about.

 

[alphatarget1]

nvm.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

I think AMA is keeping the field artificially thin, which is why you are working nights and holidays

Uh, no.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health...s/physicians_print.gif

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Apparently, walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets are an important part of the Democrats' vision of "health care reform".

In health bill, billions for parks, paths

"Sweeping healthcare legislation working its way through Congress is more than an effort to provide insurance to millions of Americans without coverage. Tucked within is a provision that could provide billions of dollars for walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets."

I thought no more earmarks? No more pork barrel spending? I guess jungle gyms are an important component of universal health care for all!

:roll:

the problem is HEALTH care. the reason why we're in this predicament is because we spend billions on sick care. health isn't promoted or enforced for shit.

you, as a typical american, lack the foresight to realize that walking paths, jungle gyms, and farmers' markets will go a LONG way in changing the path in america's health destiny.

most of the shit you get at the grocery store has NO healthy component to it whatsoever, even produce. most of it has been genetically altered and is devoid of any nutritional value. having organically grown food out in the market and plenty of it will drive down the cost of HEALTHY food, which will promote healthier eating lifestyles. more jungle gyms will promote more kids to get off their fat asses and play outside. studies prove that kids who go out and play rather than stay inside and watch tv and play games have a much healthier mind and body growing up. more walkways promote more people to get out and go for a walk and do something healthy everyday, which will ALSO promote health.

promoting health is the way to go. all we do now, however, is promote sick care... for example, when you turn your tv on and see all those bullshit commercials telling the public that they need medication x, y, and z for problems 1, 2, and/or 3 with side-effects a, b, and c.

the healthier people are, the less "healthcare" (which is actually sick care) will cost.

get it?

I'm not sure dumping money into parks + street lights will change people's attitude on healthy living. I don't think GE food is inferior in terms of nutrition. Sure if it goes into nature it might screw things up, but that's not what we're talking about.

we need to change the culture or "fashion" of health.

the way things work is that there needs to be a group of people willing to test a product... they refer to others and it catches on... it's basically like a business model. after a while, those who were too lazy or hesitant to join in on the party finally go for it.

remember how being "green" started? no one gave a shit. now it's a big deal. ipods... at first, everyone was like, "nah, i'm good with my discman, thankyouverymuch". have you seen anyone NOT carrying an ipod nowadays? they're not even cheap! it's because the benefits outweigh the cost, whatever those benefits may be. we need to make it obvious and fashionable for why health is the better way to go.

if we don't do anything, health will never be a big deal and we'll keep getting fatter. but if we at least TRY some methods to increase desire and accessibility to working out, it will help a great deal in turning more people on to working out.

the same thing goes for fresh foods and healthier foods. we don't need that genetically modified bullshit which is devoid of nutrients and healthy benefits. we need more organic stuff. having the govt pay organic farmers more money for making lots of fresh foods will increase the desire for more farmers to sell organic foods, which drives down the costs at the grocery store, which causes people to buy more of it. the main reason people don't buy fresh/organic produce is because it costs way less to buy crappy foods.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: eits
the same thing goes for fresh foods and healthier foods. we don't need that genetically modified bullshit which is devoid of nutrients and healthy benefits. we need more organic stuff. having the govt pay organic farmers more money for making lots of fresh foods will increase the desire for more farmers to sell organic foods, which drives down the costs at the grocery store, which causes people to buy more of it. the main reason people don't buy fresh/organic produce is because it costs way less to buy crappy foods.

We live in a society where instant gratification is king. We want to eat comfort foods and be slim at the same time. So what do companies sell us? Weight loss crap.

Instant gratification is consuming our society. Unless we change that mentality, nothing will really change.

Please furnish any proof that GE modified foods are devoid in nutrients. I think organic food is good in theory, but they're also ridiculously expensive. I suppose once oil prices go back up and the fertilizer gets more expensive, organics will (eventually) become viable.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: senseamp

I think AMA is keeping the field artificially thin, which is why you are working nights and holidays

Uh, no.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health...s/physicians_print.gif

The flip side of that chart is that people who argue that socialized medicine will lead to fewer doctors are flat out wrong.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: eits
the same thing goes for fresh foods and healthier foods. we don't need that genetically modified bullshit which is devoid of nutrients and healthy benefits. we need more organic stuff. having the govt pay organic farmers more money for making lots of fresh foods will increase the desire for more farmers to sell organic foods, which drives down the costs at the grocery store, which causes people to buy more of it. the main reason people don't buy fresh/organic produce is because it costs way less to buy crappy foods.

We live in a society where instant gratification is king. We want to eat comfort foods and be slim at the same time. So what do companies sell us? Weight loss crap.

Instant gratification is consuming our society. Unless we change that mentality, nothing will really change.

Please furnish any proof that GE modified foods are devoid in nutrients. I think organic food is good in theory, but they're also ridiculously expensive. I suppose once oil prices go back up and the fertilizer gets more expensive, organics will (eventually) become viable.

completely agreed... that's why we see threads of morons posting shit like "omg obama's stimulus plan didn't work" when it's hasn't had enough time to work.

http://www.healthatyourfingert...anic-vs-conventionally
http://www.soilandhealth.org/0...th%20key%20fact%85.pdf
http://www.globalnetwork4justice.org/story.php?c_id=75
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXmF_erEv1o
http://www.soilandhealth.org/0...th%20key%20fact%85.pdf
http://www.ruralroots.org/Reso...klet%20Chapter%205.pdf

there's more out there... just google it up.

 

[eits]

bump

 

[chucky2]

It doesn't matter if you tell people about jungle gyms and walking paths, the point is the people already know about the "walking paths" (also known as sidewalks), they just chose to watch Oprah instead of going out to walk.

So now we're going to do what? Spend more money loaned to us by the Chinese on jungle gyms for kids that sit and play video games, and on walking paths for adults that watch Oprah and WWE instead?

Keep repeating this to yourself until it sinks in: We American's are unhealthy as a society because we choose to be, not because of any lack of options or limitations placed on us.

For the vast vast vast majority of American's, it's just as economically feasible to buy whole wheat bread, some lean turkey, and low fat cheese, and give that to your kid for lunch. What do they get instead?: Lunch cards so they can eat sh1tty pizza's and greasy cheeseburgers. Lunchables. Etc.

STOP SPENDING MY TAX DOLLARS ON STUPID SH1T!!!!!

Chuck

P.S. The argument that people will somehow go in for checkups all the time to stay healthy, and thereby not need Emergency Room care, is another total BS argument. When do people go see the Dr.? When something's wrong. Not before.

There's what people should be doing, and there's what they actually choose to do. Those are almost always the exact opposite thing when it comes to health in the US.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: chucky2
It doesn't matter if you tell people about jungle gyms and walking paths, the point is the people already know about the "walking paths" (also known as sidewalks), they just chose to watch Oprah instead of going out to walk.

So now we're going to do what? Spend more money loaned to us by the Chinese on jungle gyms for kids that sit and play video games, and on walking paths for adults that watch Oprah and WWE instead?

Keep repeating this to yourself until it sinks in: We American's are unhealthy as a society because we choose to be, not because of any lack of options or limitations placed on us.

For the vast vast vast majority of American's, it's just as economically feasible to buy whole wheat bread, some lean turkey, and low fat cheese, and give that to your kid for lunch. What do they get instead?: Lunch cards so they can eat sh1tty pizza's and greasy cheeseburgers. Lunchables. Etc.

STOP SPENDING MY TAX DOLLARS ON STUPID SH1T!!!!!

Chuck

P.S. The argument that people will somehow go in for checkups all the time to stay healthy, and thereby not need Emergency Room care, is another total BS argument. When do people go see the Dr.? When something's wrong. Not before.

There's what people should be doing, and there's what they actually choose to do. Those are almost always the exact opposite thing when it comes to health in the US.

it's a culture that we need to change. it's a good starting point. that's where your tax dollars are going... to change the culture and improve life in this country.

having check-ups with doctors (well, at least chiropractors and dentists and therapists and nutritionists) does keep you healthier. the reason they don't go to the doctor's office for a check up when they're healthy is because they don't know any better yet. they think the same stupid thing you do, which is that you only go to doctors when you're sick. that's the problem... that's called sick care, not health care.

the problem with health care is that it's a misnomer and we need to work towards changing that so that it's health-based care, not sickness-based care. to supplement that, we need to flood the market with HEALTHY foods that are cheap, like organic foods without hormones and preservatives or high fructose corn syrup.

changing the culture just a little bit will impact a ton.

 

[chucky2]

That is all well and good, but that's not what they're saying to the American public - in fact, they're saying anything but that.

Why?

Because the American public would give a big FU to whoever is going to tell them they're going to raise their food prices up double, triple, quadruple, whatever it'll be so they have organic food (it's only somewhat more now because of the low % of people that buy organic...what happens when it's government pushed to be All/Most? Supply and demand....prices will shoot way up).

Because the American public is not going to change their eating and exercise behaviors because Uncle Sam (with my tax money btw) put in a walking trail 4 miles from their house. Guess what!!!!! There's a sidewalk 10 feet from their house. We all know that if you're a fat @ss, the walking trail 4 miles away is going to be used exactly as the sidewalk 10 feet away: Zero.

Because the American public is not going to rush to the Dr. amid their busy/"busy" schedules so they can tell the Dr. that nothing's wrong with them, and hear from the Dr. things they already know (i.e. you're fat, your diet sucks, you don't exercise, etc).

WAKE UP!!!!

You want to make a stand?? Fine:

Mandate that all schools will have only organic food, zero high sugar beverages allowed (no, Mommy let me bring Pepsi to school BS), and that the kids will have a minimum of 1.5 hours of active gym per day - no excuses. Where to find the time: Cut out the BS taught in the other classes. American students don't need to be learning about 15th century Europe, we've got 20th and 21st century America to worry about. The don't need to learn music or painting...they can do that BS at home on their own time.

Here's what's not Fine:

Spending my tax dollars on phew phew sh1t that is a complete and utter waste of time.

Chuck

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Apparently, walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets are an important part of the Democrats' vision of "health care reform".

In health bill, billions for parks, paths

"Sweeping healthcare legislation working its way through Congress is more than an effort to provide insurance to millions of Americans without coverage. Tucked within is a provision that could provide billions of dollars for walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets."

I thought no more earmarks? No more pork barrel spending? I guess jungle gyms are an important component of universal health care for all!

:roll:

Active kids don't become fat adults. A healthier populace needs less health care. Street lamps enable people to walk and feel safe rather than drive.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: senseamp
I pay taxes too, probably higher percent than you.

It's quite possible - I do fine on income, but I don't pretend to be rich. Assuming you pay more than me, start a free clinic or something. You claim to have means.

Yup, the Republican answer to anything... "Do it yourself!!!" or "Start yer own business" What's wrong with working together to accomplish a goal? Everyone pays a little and we all benefit.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: IGBT
it's rationed health care based on age. the older you are the less you get. at some point you'll get written off and told to go home.

Hospice, actually. Its a good idea for many elderly severely ill patients, since effective treatments are likely expensive and won't really improve quality of live.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Apparently, walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets are an important part of the Democrats' vision of "health care reform".

In health bill, billions for parks, paths

"Sweeping healthcare legislation working its way through Congress is more than an effort to provide insurance to millions of Americans without coverage. Tucked within is a provision that could provide billions of dollars for walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets."

I thought no more earmarks? No more pork barrel spending? I guess jungle gyms are an important component of universal health care for all!

:roll:

Active kids don't become fat adults. A healthier populace needs less health care. Street lamps enable people to walk and feel safe rather than drive.

Have you seen eits over there in Delusion Land???

Active kids don't become fat adults...haha...oh man that is like one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time. Even given the obesity levels in today's youth: Look at their parents and older. A very large % of them are fat...and they came from generations that were much more active.

The deluision in this thread is at Looney Left levels....

Chuck

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Active kids don't become fat adults...haha...oh man that is like one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time. Even given the obesity levels in today's youth: Look at their parents and older. A very large % of them are fat...and they came from generations that were much more active.

The deluision in this thread is at Looney Left levels....

Chuck

I can only imagine how fat and disgusting your generation will turn out to be. Maybe we better have UHC because you guys won't be able to get Health Insurance with all the pre-exisiting conditions you are going to have.