health care reform- what exactly are they proposing?

Jul 10, 2007
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sounds like they are just trying to get some form of universal national health care program as an option to private health insurance.
and they will be funding it by taxing the crap outta everything and everyone.
(the article mentions spending cuts but doesn't give any examples.)

why aren't they attacking the root of the issue which is lowering the overall cost of health care? you know, the $30 aspirin at the hospital.



Lawmakers searching for a way to pay for health care reform are facing some rough waters.

Sen. Max Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, has said repeatedly that health reform would be paid for with a combination of spending cuts and tax increases.

Baucus and others have made some progress through savings in Medicare, Medicaid and other programs.

On Wednesday, for instance, Vice President Biden said hospitals would reduce costs by $155 billion over 10 years. But nothing is final until that deal between the White House and business -- and a similar one reached with drugmakers last month -- is written into legislation.

And on the revenue side of the equation, there is still no apparent consensus.

This much is certain: Lawmakers must find ways to raise a lot of money.

Congress needs to come up with $320 billion in tax revenue over the next decade to pay for reform, Baucus told reporters Wednesday.

A problem is that one of the biggest revenue-raising proposals might be a no-go for a lot of Democrats and, according to polls, many Americans as well.

At issue is a proposal to scale back the tax break that workers get when their employers help pay for their insurance. Currently, that money is treated as tax-free income to workers. The cost to federal coffers is roughly $260 billion a year.

Taxing individuals on some part of that money could raise tens of billions a year or more.

The proposal is supported by many tax and health policy experts who say the current tax-free treatment contributes to runaway costs. The theory: Workers don't know how much their health benefits really cost because they only pay a portion of the bill. So they are more likely to consume health services they don't really need. Over time, that drives up health costs.

Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said the idea of taxing health benefits isn't dead. But the proposal could end up being so greatly modified that it would raise far less revenue than originally hoped.

"We are searching for options, and there are a fair number of them that can work," he said Tuesday.

Perhaps, but just as with taxing health benefits, they're almost all bound to be unpopular with one group or another.

In the end, lawmakers may have to be more aggressive about cost containment or finding other revenue raisers, said Linda Blumberg, a senior fellow at the Health Policy Center of the Urban Institute.

"If you take something off the table, you've got to find something to fill the hole," she said, adding that since no option will be universally popular, lawmakers will have to be willing to make tradeoffs.

For instance, she suggested, they could boost sin taxes -- taxing alcohol and cigarettes, as well as sugary drinks, the latter of which has some support in the House but less in the Senate.

Critics say sin taxes would disproportionately tax low- and middle-income families. But Blumberg noted that they are the same groups that would benefit a lot from health reform. "They'll come out ahead with what they're getting versus what they're paying," she said.

Another possibility might be raising everyone's income tax rates by, say, 1%, Blumberg said.

Or lawmakers could opt to impose a substantive "pay or play" rule on employers. Such a mandate would require them to provide insurance for their workers or pay into a national insurance exchange to help subsidize their workers' coverage. Several proposals are under consideration -- but like the temperature of the porridge in "Goldilocks and the Three Bears," some are said to be too lenient and others too onerous on employers.

A potentially substantial revenue raiser would be to subject all income -- not just earned income, but also capital gains, dividends and other unearned income -- to the 1.45% Medicare tax paid by individuals. The progressive nonprofit group Citizens for Tax Justice estimates that kind of move -- together with increasing the Medicare tax rate to 2.5% for income over $200,000 ($250,000 for joint filers) -- could raise $500 billion over 10 years.

In a paper exploring different pay-for options, the Senate Finance Committee included expanding the Medicare tax in some ways but not nearly as broadly as applying to all unearned income.

Another idea under discussion on Capitol Hill: Charge an extra income tax known as a surtax on high-income taxpayers.

Lawmakers may also have to reconsider a proposal from President Obama to limit itemized deductions for high-income taxpayers. Neither Democrats nor Republicans liked the idea initially, asserting that it could harm charitable contributions, even though an analysis by the Tax Policy Center suggested the effect would be minimal. The Congressional Budget Office estimated the provision could raise $300 billion over 10 years.

Given how sensitive lawmakers were on the issue of the charitable contributions, however, they could exclude them from the new rule, Blumberg said. But mortgage interest and other popular itemized deductions would still be subject to the limit.

Whatever pay-for options rise to the top for consideration, they'll all face the same litmus test: Who in particular will have to pony up?

Answering that question will cause its own round of skirmishes. The debate is taking place in a very partisan environment, and one in which regional divisions between lawmakers also play a part. Since health care costs vary greatly across the country, paying for reform may disproportionately affect some states more than others. And all that adds up to a very long, hot summer ahead for those on the Hill.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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They need to tackle two issues and stop dancing around the problem.

1. Disconnect between end user and cost
2. Death bed care that consumes the majority of lifetime health care costs.

If all we do is transfer the current system from the private to the public it will be a run away train wreck.

 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
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In a nutshell it seems they are proposing a system with what they consider the highest chance of getting signed into law. There has been so much FUD over UHC in any form that it scares people. So, congress put together a plan that includes much of the current system while setting up a 'public option' for a provider. Few changes overall have been made.

What they want to do is to get a real UHC system in place. Whether this will be a true parallel/private system as in Canada or Australia, a national health service system as in Britain, or a universal insurance model as in Germany/France I do not know. As a person in the "scrap the whole damn system" camp, I am dissatisfied with the current proposal. However, anything is better than nothing.
 
Jul 10, 2007
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3
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
In a nutshell it seems they are proposing a system with what they consider the highest chance of getting signed into law. There has been so much FUD over UHC in any form that it scares people. So, congress put together a plan that includes much of the current system while setting up a 'public option' for a provider. Few changes overall have been made.

What they want to do is to get a real UHC system in place. Whether this will be a true parallel/private system as in Canada or Australia, a national health service system as in Britain, or a universal insurance model as in Germany/France I do not know. As a person in the "scrap the whole damn system" camp, I am dissatisfied with the current proposal. However, anything is better than nothing.

i'm with you. scrap the whole damn thing.
do away with for-profit insurance companies.
limit malpractice insurance lawsuit awards.
get rid of nurse unions.
...
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
In a nutshell it seems they are proposing a system with what they consider the highest chance of getting signed into law. There has been so much FUD over UHC in any form that it scares people. So, congress put together a plan that includes much of the current system while setting up a 'public option' for a provider. Few changes overall have been made.

What they want to do is to get a real UHC system in place. Whether this will be a true parallel/private system as in Canada or Australia, a national health service system as in Britain, or a universal insurance model as in Germany/France I do not know. As a person in the "scrap the whole damn system" camp, I am dissatisfied with the current proposal. However, anything is better than nothing.

That's basically how I feel. Sounds like they want to try a last ditch effort to salvage the current system by augmenting it with a private option to cover people that insurance companies don't want to insure, which is pretty much anyone who needs anything but preventative medical care. I am not convinced this will work. Keeping private insurers in business just gives them opportunity to corrupt and game the system over time. So I think we'll end up with a UHC system eventually, but we'll have to go through a bunch of stupid ideas to get to something obvious, because simply seeing what works elsewhere and adopting it is not the American way.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
do away with for-profit insurance companies.
...

Let's just do away with all business. Why are farmers allowed to profit? Why are auto companies allowed to try to profit? Why are home builders allowed to profit?

Because, while not perfect, is the best system to achieve the best results.

Move everything to government control? You're replacing greed with laziness & corruption.

You guys seriously fall for this BS hook, line, & sinker. That's the lone argument they ever give in favor of government run health-care, "the only other option is greedy profit driven corporations bathing in your money, you don't want that do you?" :roll:

You do realize insurance companies do more than just steal your money, right?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,384
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the ridiculous thing is that HMOs and PPOs have been very successful at pushing down the costs of medicine. problem is, new procedures just keep being invented that covers smaller and smaller numbers of people at higher costs, all of which people want covered and needs to be paid for. every once in a while you get something that is lower cost but that's the exception and not the rule. then you've got the added paper pushing costs every time a new law is passed tacked on top of that.
 
Feb 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
do away with for-profit insurance companies.
...

Let's just do away with all business. Why are farmers allowed to profit? Why are auto companies allowed to try to profit? Why are home builders allowed to profit?

Because, while not perfect, is the best system to achieve the best results.

Move everything to government control? You're replacing greed with laziness & corruption.

You guys seriously fall for this BS hook, line, & sinker. That's the lone argument they ever give in favor of government run health-care, "the only other option is greedy profit driven corporations bathing in your money, you don't want that do you?" :roll:

You do realize insurance companies do more than just steal your money, right?

In this nation, it is the hip thing to

- Criticize big oil for making money
- Criticize health-care providers for making money
- Criticize those for making over $250,000 for not paying enough into society
- Criticize Bush
- Bow down and kiss the ground that Obama walks on because Hope and Change will save the day.

Edit:
- Save those who don't make money (GM, Chrysler) at the expense of those who make money.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
the ridiculous thing is that HMOs and PPOs have been very successful at pushing down the costs of medicine. problem is, new procedures just keep being invented that covers smaller and smaller numbers of people at higher costs, all of which people want covered and needs to be paid for. every once in a while you get something that is lower cost but that's the exception and not the rule. then you've got the added paper pushing costs every time a new law is passed tacked on top of that.

Stop making sense. ;)
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I think some people have a misperception of non-profits. My wife works for a non-profit health provider and they charge the same as the hospital down the street that is for profit.

Expansions, salaries, long term investments, supplies, and malpractice insurance all have to be paid.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ElFenix
the ridiculous thing is that HMOs and PPOs have been very successful at pushing down the costs of medicine. problem is, new procedures just keep being invented that covers smaller and smaller numbers of people at higher costs, all of which people want covered and needs to be paid for. every once in a while you get something that is lower cost but that's the exception and not the rule. then you've got the added paper pushing costs every time a new law is passed tacked on top of that.

Good point, and often these expensive new procedures are mandated by politicians to be covered by private insurance.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,384
8,518
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: ElFenix
the ridiculous thing is that HMOs and PPOs have been very successful at pushing down the costs of medicine. problem is, new procedures just keep being invented that covers smaller and smaller numbers of people at higher costs, all of which people want covered and needs to be paid for. every once in a while you get something that is lower cost but that's the exception and not the rule. then you've got the added paper pushing costs every time a new law is passed tacked on top of that.

Stop making sense. ;)

i'd rather be making dollars :(
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Apparently, walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets are an important part of the Democrats' vision of "health care reform".

In health bill, billions for parks, paths

"Sweeping healthcare legislation working its way through Congress is more than an effort to provide insurance to millions of Americans without coverage. Tucked within is a provision that could provide billions of dollars for walking paths, streetlights, jungle gyms, and even farmers? markets."

I thought no more earmarks? No more pork barrel spending? I guess jungle gyms are an important component of universal health care for all!

:roll:
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
LOL, what a nice circle jerk you guys are having while people are dying.

http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare

People die every day.

The only question I have for you. Are they doing it in the streets yet? Because that is the ultiumate test for an argument.

I guess as long as it's out of sight and out of mind (your mind anyway) then you're OK with it??
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
0
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
do away with for-profit insurance companies.
...

Let's just do away with all business. Why are farmers allowed to profit? Why are auto companies allowed to try to profit? Why are home builders allowed to profit?

Because, while not perfect, is the best system to achieve the best results.

Move everything to government control? You're replacing greed with laziness & corruption.

You guys seriously fall for this BS hook, line, & sinker. That's the lone argument they ever give in favor of government run health-care, "the only other option is greedy profit driven corporations bathing in your money, you don't want that do you?" :roll:

You do realize insurance companies do more than just steal your money, right?

there's a difference between health care and other businesses.
i can live without abercrombie. i cannot without health care.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
LOL, what a nice circle jerk you guys are having while people are dying.

http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare

People die every day.

The only question I have for you. Are they doing it in the streets yet? Because that is the ultiumate test for an argument.

I guess as long as it's out of sight and out of mind (your mind anyway) then you're OK with it??

Thousands of people in Africa are dying everyday to things that our citizen's haven't had to worry about for decades, at least.

So put it in perspective.

A lot of very solid points have been made by several posters here... basically to the effect that "hey... our present medical system is not broken!"

Improvements can always be made, true... but I'd like to echo what Genx said with a few little additions:

They need to tackle two issues and stop dancing around the problem.

1. Disconnect between end user and cost... end users must have skin in the game.

2. Death bed care that consumes that generate huge health care costs as evidenced by our ever increasing medicaid/medicare costs. We will have to make some hard decisions, with or without UHC really) as to what consitutes reasonable care versus cost for the elderly and infirm.

3. Healthcare for the intentionally unhealthy -- people who eat too much crap, don't exercise, smoke, etc... right now, insurance companies don't have to give everyone insurance and can reject people they know statistically will cost them a shit ton of money. UHC won't be able to do that... and tax payers are gonna have to foot the bill for open heart surgeries for the morbidly obese (many of which never really did jack shit to take care of themselves) or cancer treatment and surgeries for habitual smokers.

If all we do is transfer the current system from the private to the public it will be a run away train wreck... I agree here completely.

Also... we assume in all of this that the wealthy will stick around and pay for everything we want them to. We assume that corporations will do the same. Well that is a very dangerous thing to assume. IF the financial environment become hostile enough we will end up watching a lot of our tax base leave for greener pastures.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
LOL, what a nice circle jerk you guys are having while people are dying.

http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare

People die every day.

The only question I have for you. Are they doing it in the streets yet? Because that is the ultiumate test for an argument.

I guess as long as it's out of sight and out of mind (your mind anyway) then you're OK with it??

No, I am curious if it is happening yet. Mass death in our streets due to lack of healthcare.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
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Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Also... we assume in all of this that the wealthy will stick around and pay for everything we want them to. We assume that corporations will do the same. Well that is a very dangerous thing to assume. IF the financial environment become hostile enough we will end up watching a lot of our tax base leave for greener pastures.

i don't agree with higher taxes.
i want them to find a solution to stop the ever-increasing health care costs. not bandage it by raising taxes to fund their plan.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
On February 7, 2008 our family was shattered when we lost our one and only son Clinton Ron Walker at the age of 17. For over a year, Clinton had suffered strange seizures that would rack his body and cause him to run, jump and moan for over 2 or 3 minutes. He went to the pediatrician who wanted to send him to a special clinic but my insurance AETNA denied our request. After months of visiting several doctors, and receiving a misdiagnoses of panic attacks, our peditrician found a new neurologist who was set to take on Clinton's case using my husbands' insurance plan. The week that he was schedule to see the new doctor Clinton died. We later learned he had a heart defect that caused his seizures. Had our insurance allowed us to take him to the special clinic where there was a cardiologist on staff we believe he could have been saved and alive today. Please help us get insurance companies to let us see a variety of health care providers for our children. Thank you.
Kind of puts Canadians waiting for an MRI in perspective:
I lost my beloved son to our terrible system last year. He had no insurance and so couldn't get diagnostic tests for his cancer until it was too late to save his life. Several times, his doctors wrote, "Patient needs a colonoscopy but can't afford one." By the time he gopt help, he was in renal failure and vomiting fecal matter. He didn't matter to the system because he didn't have insurance or money. He mattered to me, though, and to the rest of his family and friends. He was one of 30,000 people who died in the last year simply because they didn't have insurance. I will never get over losing him or the fact that his death could have -- and should have been prevented. The insurance industry would love to have the whole pie, but we can't allow it. They will not reform themselves. We must have the public plan for meaningful reform. Please remember we are out here, please remember that people are dying. Please do the right thing.
Of course Republicans are going to tell us how they sympathize and care, but won't lift a finger to do anything about it, which is even worse than not caring.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
In a nutshell it seems they are proposing a system with what they consider the highest chance of getting signed into law. There has been so much FUD over UHC in any form that it scares people. So, congress put together a plan that includes much of the current system while setting up a 'public option' for a provider. Few changes overall have been made.

What they want to do is to get a real UHC system in place. Whether this will be a true parallel/private system as in Canada or Australia, a national health service system as in Britain, or a universal insurance model as in Germany/France I do not know. As a person in the "scrap the whole damn system" camp, I am dissatisfied with the current proposal. However, anything is better than nothing.

I don't know; few problems are so bad that the gov't can't make them worse.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
On February 7, 2008 our family was shattered when we lost our one and only son Clinton Ron Walker at the age of 17. For over a year, Clinton had suffered strange seizures that would rack his body and cause him to run, jump and moan for over 2 or 3 minutes. He went to the pediatrician who wanted to send him to a special clinic but my insurance AETNA denied our request. After months of visiting several doctors, and receiving a misdiagnoses of panic attacks, our peditrician found a new neurologist who was set to take on Clinton's case using my husbands' insurance plan. The week that he was schedule to see the new doctor Clinton died. We later learned he had a heart defect that caused his seizures. Had our insurance allowed us to take him to the special clinic where there was a cardiologist on staff we believe he could have been saved and alive today. Please help us get insurance companies to let us see a variety of health care providers for our children. Thank you.
Kind of puts Canadians waiting for an MRI in perspective:
I lost my beloved son to our terrible system last year. He had no insurance and so couldn't get diagnostic tests for his cancer until it was too late to save his life. Several times, his doctors wrote, "Patient needs a colonoscopy but can't afford one." By the time he gopt help, he was in renal failure and vomiting fecal matter. He didn't matter to the system because he didn't have insurance or money. He mattered to me, though, and to the rest of his family and friends. He was one of 30,000 people who died in the last year simply because they didn't have insurance. I will never get over losing him or the fact that his death could have -- and should have been prevented. The insurance industry would love to have the whole pie, but we can't allow it. They will not reform themselves. We must have the public plan for meaningful reform. Please remember we are out here, please remember that people are dying. Please do the right thing.
Of course Republicans are going to tell us how they sympathize and care, but won't lift a finger to do anything about it, which is even worse than not caring.

And what'd you do for these people? Oh, right . . . nothing.