HD DVDs Fall Like Dominoes

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

-EDIT- Points 1 and 2 are rendered moot if we're talking about set-top DVRs, but then it becomes an issue of DRM. What if you cancel your contract with the cable company? They take back their DVR and you have nothing to show for the money you spent on downloaded media. It's just a way to lock you into a contract, and it stinks. Not to mention, it would take hours to download a true hidef presentation at current cable speeds (it certainly wouldn't download fast enough to stream, unless you settled for an overly compressed file).

So yes, we will have downloadable movies in the future, but they will not eliminate the need for physical media any time soon. The iPod and iTunes was supposed to kill the CD, but there's still crazy people out there buying physical copies of music. This will be no different.

I see your point and you are correct for the most part, but here is the thing I do not understand. We have services which sell MP3s through the internet which people have easily learned how to play those MP3s in devices other than their computers and it is perfectly legal. Why is it so complicated to do the same thing with movies? Why is it so hard to create an extremely easy to use interface which is installed on a computer that connects to a media center which you rent from a service provider and it uploads a copy of those files to that media center to then be played on your TV? If multiple services decide to do this then all that needs to be done is for the digital movies that are purchased (not necessarily purchased from the same "media center" provider) to be standard and compatible with all of these media centers. They let people do this with MP3s and it is easy as pie now. Why not movies?

Well, video and audio are two very different things. An mp3 runs at an average bitrate of 192 kbps. A hidef AVC encode will run at 30 mbps. That's a vast difference. Your average mp3 is about 4 minutes long, maybe 6 MB. Your average movie is 2 hours, roughly 20 GB. To do hidef movies you need larger hard drives to store all the data, more RAM, faster processors and much, much higher bandwidth if you're considering streaming. It's a daunting task, seeing as how movies are thousands of times larger than songs in the digital realm. And while all the stuff required to play hidef movies is becoming more affordable, it hasn't reached the level of affordability that mp3 has. Hell, you could play mp3s on computers from 1995. Try playing a hidef video encode on that same PC... would never work.

I am not considering streaming. I am talking about transfering. Here is the idea:

1. Setup and connect this rented or purchased media center to your TV and computer.
2. Install very easy to use software on the computer.
3. Purchase and download movies from some internet site.
4. Transfer a copy of your downloaded movie to the media center.
5. Delete the original downloaded file from the computer.
6. Play the movie.

You could also incorporate the technology to allowing streaming in addition to transferring if you want to be extra cool and give the users with powerful enough computers the option to do so. Most of the process above could be very easily automated too with all sorts of graphical pretty things to look at in a GUI.

It is very important that all of the above steps are ridiculously easy to setup and perform. We have plenty of ways to do that. The only real limitation at that point is the download speeds like you mentioned. However, that can be arranged too. I rent and download HD movies from Xbox Live all of the time and I get them in a matter of minutes due to the alloted bandwidth I get through XBL. I currently have Comcast 8 mbit down. Most people have broadband these days and if they do not then they most certain know how to get it if they want to. Not to mention that with FIOS quickly spreading it's beautiful self around the world, it won't be long until that becomes even a lesser problem.

This new technology will not replace the sale of hard copied movies just like MP3s have not replaced the sale of CDs, but it most certainly could become the preferred method of obtaining and watching them which is what I am hoping for. I want there to be a market for this and I want it to become strong.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

List of disks I'm waiting to get get super-cheap (bold are ones I REALLY want):

Fearless
Full Metal Jacket
Pan's Labyrinth
Flags of our Fathers
Letters from Iwo Jima
Matrix Trilogy
Mummy/Mummy Returns
V for Vendetta
Batman Begins
Beowulf
Twister

I wonder if Beowulf will be distributed by Warner Brothers (now BR exclusive) or Paramount (HD)... interesting.

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: bonkers325
get a DVI->HDMI cable, a cheapo $20-30 HDCP capable video card from one of the various web-retailers, buy CoreAVC (software x264 decoder) for $10

a computer that is 3 years old can play any 720p/1080p video that is encoded in H264 using CoreAVC. the only problem is finding videos to play, which if you are web-savvy, wont be a problem.

I've already got Nero7 which came with Nero's own AVC decoder, and I, ahem, obtained RE: Extinction in 1080p x264 and it brings my Athlon X2 4400+ to its knees. I tried playing it in VLC too which should use VLC's own decoder, and that was still choppy. What gives? Isn't my damn GeForce7 supposed to do it's PureVideo shit and help with decoding?

Almost all such amateur x264 recodes are non-compliant with the AVC standard so do not correctly utilize hardware; worse, they usually use the non-standard Matroska container so will never be playable on stand-alone hardware even if correctly encoded. Without dedicated hardware, 1080 sources in the commercial range of 20-40 Mbps are too demanding for most general purpose CPU's (software-only decoding).

GeForce 7 series has first-generation decode capability which should be sufficient paired with the X2 4400+ given a compliant source and DxVA capable decoder (Nero, CyberLink, &c.). It may still struggle with VC-1 though. Ideally, a second-generation decoder GPU would be used with AMD having a slight edge over Nvidia.

Recodes generally defeat the purpose of HD anyway which is quality -especially those which reduce the bitrate significantly as well as the resolution. There are many such "mock" HD files available which are 10 Mbps or less and therefore despite minimal resolution of 720p are not to be considered HD and indeed offer little benefit over SD for the file size.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

List of disks I'm waiting to get get super-cheap (bold are ones I REALLY want):

Fearless
Full Metal Jacket
Pan's Labyrinth
Flags of our Fathers
Letters from Iwo Jima
Matrix Trilogy
Mummy/Mummy Returns
V for Vendetta
Batman Begins
Beowulf
Twister

I wonder if Beowulf will be distributed by Warner Brothers (now BR exclusive) or Paramount (HD)... interesting.

Beowulf is being released next month, and Warner isn't dropping HD until May. I'm most worried about Twister, which is scheduled for May.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

List of disks I'm waiting to get get super-cheap (bold are ones I REALLY want):

Fearless
Full Metal Jacket
Pan's Labyrinth
Flags of our Fathers
Letters from Iwo Jima
Matrix Trilogy
Mummy/Mummy Returns
V for Vendetta
Batman Begins
Beowulf
Twister

I wonder if Beowulf will be distributed by Warner Brothers (now BR exclusive) or Paramount (HD)... interesting.

if things stay the way they are right now in the USA at least... then Beowulf will be HD DVD only, as Warner has distribution rights outside the US, but Paramount retains the rights for USA. So, I am sure there are other English speaking countries that will have Region 1 BD (and Warner will release Twister to those countries, I'd imagine), or if undubbed is an option, it would be available in basically all other countries

 

[Rudee]

I'm glad I didn't jump on those Toshiba HD-DVD player deals that were everywhere last fall. I held out and I'm glad I didn't spend a dime on a format which is now dead in the water.

 

[conehead433]

Originally posted by: Rudee
I'm glad I didn't jump on those Toshiba HD-DVD player deals that were everywhere last fall. I held out and I'm glad I didn't spend a dime on a format which is now dead in the water.

Actually I'm glad I did. It still may be a little premature to pronounce HD DVD dead. BR players are still $300 or more and apparently they all have problems. I put a HD DVD disc in my player and it plays.

 

[Rudee]

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

They'll make great coasters for the coffee table.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Physical media WILL be dead someday imho but probably not early enough to warrant avoiding Blu-Ray. I have backed HD but only slightly (purchased about 10 movies) and the 360 add-on. To be honest I'm to the point where I know Blu has already won so I just want a single format to continue and to hell with the other.

That's what we all wanted anyway, right?

Honestly...I think most people don't even care.

 

[conehead433]

Originally posted by: Rudee

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

They'll make great coasters for the coffee table.

You must be some Blu-Ray fanboy. WTF would they be coasters when I can play and enjoy them at any time?

 

[sunzt]

I've always thought BR would win over HD-DVD due to the PS3. In fact, it's the only reason they're on top. The only thing that kept the format war going on so long was the price and sales # of PS3. Once Sony reduced price of PS3 and the sales # improved, it was clear that they were going to win.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Physical media WILL be dead someday imho but probably not early enough to warrant avoiding Blu-Ray. I have backed HD but only slightly (purchased about 10 movies) and the 360 add-on. To be honest I'm to the point where I know Blu has already won so I just want a single format to continue and to hell with the other.

That's what we all wanted anyway, right?

Honestly...I think most people don't even care.

I was showing my brother some of the movies I got for Christmas, and he didn't even know there were two formats.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: edro
Sony wins?

Everybody but MS and Toshiba backs bluray.

Yeah, but I am happy to see Sony created formats fail.

Mini-Disc (1991)--custom disc format, and used ATRAC audio compression, which is proprietary.
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (1993)--a competitor to the Dolby Digital 5.1 standard.
Multi-Media Compact Disc (1994)--Sony's proprietary format for high-density optical storage, developed in conjunction with Phillips. Negotiations merged this format and Toshiba's Super Density disc format into what would become DVD.
Music Clip (1999)--Sony's first digital player, used ATRAC audio compression.
HiFD (1998)--a competitor to Iomega's Zip drive.
Memory Stick (1998)--proprietary memory device as a competitor to SD and Flash memory.
Super Audio CD (1999)--an optical disc format with higher fidelity than the CD.
PSP (2004)--Uses Universal Media Disc (UMD) media, a proprietary media format.

So, in your view (I'm extrapolating), any new media format is bad? Do you save things on 5.25" floppies? A few comments.

SDDS -- DTS was the only serious competitor to Dolby for personal use, since SDDS went into movie theaters though I'm not sure it's still out there (I think it is). DTS is superior to Dolby in my experience but died out because it used more space on the DVD. Was DTS bad, too?
MM CD -- Toshiba developed their own standard. Do you heap derision on them as well? Plus, we wouldn't have CDs without Sony and Philips working together. Damn that proprietary CD format!
HiFD -- As opposed to Iomega's equally propietary Zip drive and IBM's 2.88MB capacity floppy, you mean.
MS -- SD, CF, xD, SM, MMC...sure seems like a heap of standardization there.
SACD -- There's no competitor that I am aware of, or is there?

I certainly don't love everything that Sony does, but they are an innovator and have done a great deal in technology. I'm not an apologist for them, but someone acting as if Sony is completely worthless is frivolous. The Walkman was ingenious!

New formats are not bad.
New proprietary formats are.

Companies develop propietary formats to maximize profits, which are the inducement to development in the first place. What company is going to plunge millions into the development of a new format, only to see it taken away by competitors within a short while?

I agree with your statement, but to a technology company, it's generally bad business. Everybody patents everything -- the licensing is how it gets problematic. Sony seems to generate tremendous ill feelings, but they do quite a bit right along with the missteps. I like my DSLR, and I plan on buying another Sony Alpha this year or next.

 

[ranmaniac]

I hope we see $199 BD players by xmas, I read that Hyundai is bringing one to Canada, and I'm guessing that means the US too.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: Rudee

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

They'll make great coasters for the coffee table.

Right, because all HD-DVD discs and players will magically quit working at the stroke of midnight on the day HD-DVD is officially abandoned

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Rudee

Originally posted by: conehead433
I can't wait until all the retailers are practically giving away HD DVDs. I'll be buying them like candy. An incredible collection on the cheap. Consumers win regardless.

They'll make great coasters for the coffee table.

Right, because all HD-DVD discs and players will magically quit working at the stroke of midnight on the day HD-DVD is officially abandoned

I just bought a toshiba hddvd player (hda3) from amazon for $147. Prices are falling a bit because of all the hysteria... Once the hysteria goes away, I'm afraid the prices might rise. In any case, this is what I wrote in another form to justify myself:

----------------------

going to buy one.. finally its at a price thats in my range.. I missed all the other deals. Don't forget http://images.amazon.com/media/i3...form_2.pdf

Yea, hooray for a dead format. Cheap hd players for everyone.

This is not the VHS/BETA war. Only one format could exist then. Now, the marketplace can support both.. If not for "theatre" , then for computers -- how many computer hddvd drives are there compared to bluray? What are the prices??? (ans., there are more hddvd drives and are cheaper)

Bluray cost more to make hence they will always be more expensive then the more "open" HDDVD. When HDDVD burners become even cheaper. I'm going to buy a whole lot of cheap blank hddvd's and make "copies" to watch on my TV.. (in addition to backing up my data files...) These copies will be equal in quality of those bluray disc, "rootkit" free.. and cheaper..



Dying format FTW!!!

(Also, I tried to buy one of those stupid philips "upconverting" dvd players for $70 -- they suck.. how do I know? I bought a hd-a3 during christmas because my parents have a plasma tv and tried it out. It was $300 so sadly I had to return it. However, since I really liked how well the hd-a3 upconverted regular dvds, I bought the philips.. it was a lot worse, no comparison.. don't believe me.. try it out yourself... cheap upconverting dvd players are cheap for a reason)

----------------------

 

[DaveSimmons]

Only one format could exist then. Now, the marketplace can support both.. If not for "theatre" , then for computers -- how many computer hddvd drives are there compared to bluray? What are the prices??? (ans., there are more hddvd drives and are cheaper)

Newegg:

Burners:
HD-DVD = 0, blu-ray = 3, starting at $399 (what I paid for a 2X SCSI CD burner last century)

Media:
HD-DVD = 0, blu-ray = 3 x -R ($10 for 25GB, about what I paid for a 650 MB CD-R last century), 3 x -RW ($16 for 25 GB).

I've read you can get a HD-DVD burner in some Toshiba laptops, otherwise HD-DVD burners for desktops are vaporware and blu-ray is winning but at the early adopter stage.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Slick5150

Originally posted by: dug777

Originally posted by: yllus
Universal: We're staying with HD DVD

5:00 pm ET January 10, 2008 -- Universal Studios has officially dispelled the rumors from Variety that it will drop HD DVD and switch to Blu-ray.

"Contrary to unsubstantiated rumors from unnamed sources, Universal's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment and also co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group.

It's not clear what led to the Variety claims, but they follow similar rumors reported by the Financial Times -- and later disputed by the studio -- that Paramount would go Blu-ray only.

Sources close to the matter say that neither Variety or the Financial Times bothered to contact HD DVD for confirmation before publishing the rumors.

Paramount Denies Report It Will Drop Toshiba's HD DVD

Jan. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Viacom Inc.'s Paramount Pictures denied a newspaper report that the studio is poised to follow Time Warner Inc. in abandoning Toshiba Corp.'s HD DVD technology.

"Paramount's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format,'' Brenda Ciccone, a spokeswoman for Paramount, said in an e-mail today.

The writing's past being on the wall, sweetheart

It's over. Give up already...

Mwuhaha :laugh:

I love how you act like you won something here. Who cares? Neither format had any real advantage over the other from a technological standpoint, but why anyone would rather have a format with several layers of DRM and region coded discs (Blu-Ray), over a much more open format (HD-DVD) is beyond me.

I have invested $0 in either format, and will continue not to.

Would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

As consumers, the sooner this crap is all sorted out, the better

We don't even have a standalone DVD player in the house, so I can pretty safely say that I don't have a vested interest either way.

However, given the rabid HD-DVD love that AT and DT seem to exhibit, I can't help but back Blu-Ray in my heart of hearts

 

[randym431]

I have both, and blu-rays load soooo much slower. I think (?) there is some little program that loads off the each B-RAY dvd when you insert a blu-ray disc? Spiderman 3 is a perfect example. First you wait and wait for the player to go ready, then you again wait and wait for the bluray disc to load up.
If motion picture companies are loving blu-ray, its only because of BR high massive copy protection vs hd dvd's.

The people will rule in the end. Sony is still pissed betamax failed, you know...

A heck of a lot of $99 hd dvd players were sold at christmas time. A lot of folks have a big investment in hd dvd.

I'd also guess media cost will be a huge factor. Amazon.com has low cost blu-ray dvd's , poor selections but low cost. As well as the buy one get one free thingy (that just ended).

When I see either hd dvd's or blu-ray dvd's in the wal-mart $5 bin, We'll know who won.