HC passes Senate

[eits]

You have to learn to ask "What's this going to cost?" and "What are my options?" It's really not that hard.

If we as a country do not learn to ask those questions and actively manage our own health care, then it will be managed for us by government bureaucrats or insurance agency clerks.

doctors are supposed to tell you your options. they're supposed to tell you your benefits, risks, and alternatives to what they want to do.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

Well said.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

ultimately, what ends up happening is a shitty bill like this one. the democrats are sick and tired of the ulcers they get from worrying about what everyone else thinks and says, "fuck it" and just signs whatever the party says just to get shit over with and the republicans used up all their cause-doubt-and-hysteria cards... they're like the boy who cried wolf.

No, the Democrats wanted to pass something, ANYTHING, to save face after all their tough talk after winning big in 08. That is the truth, not these lame excuses like the one above. Only partisan hacks fall for the "it is the Republican's fault!" hook, line, and sinker, when in fact, all the Democrats had to do was vote along party lines and they could do anything they wanted. Instead of concerning themselves with the Republicans, the Democrats should have put together legislation that would have been palatable to all factions in their party in the first place and avoided all of this drama.

The Democrats talked a big game after the 08 election and like a puppy who has had an accident, they are getting their faces rubbed in their own crap because of it.

 

[fskimospy]

No, the Democrats wanted to pass something, ANYTHING, to save face after all their tough talk after winning big in 08. That is the truth, not these lame excuses like the one above. Only partisan hacks fall for the "it is the Republican's fault!" hook, line, and sinker, when in fact, all the Democrats had to do was vote along party lines and they could do anything they wanted. Instead of concerning themselves with the Republicans, the Democrats should have put together legislation that would have been palatable to all factions in their party in the first place and avoided all of this drama.

The Democrats talked a big game after the 08 election and like a puppy who has had an accident, they are getting their faces rubbed in their own crap because of it.

They were attempting to craft legislation that would pass all of the relevant congressional committees along with both houses at large. At one point as per committee rules they needed a Republican vote, so they fought for one. At other points they just needed 60 votes so they tweaked the legislation to get those. Parties in the US aren't monolithic entities, and there's a wide range of thought within the Democratic caucus. This is how you iron those thoughts out.

I'm not even sure what you mean avoid all this drama? This is how legislation is crafted... it's always been how legislation is crafted. Maybe people didn't realize it before the 24 hour news cycle? Are you looking to implement an alternative method of legislating? If so, what would you change?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

They were attempting to craft legislation that would pass all of the relevant congressional committees along with both houses at large. At one point as per committee rules they needed a Republican vote, so they fought for one. At other points they just needed 60 votes so they tweaked the legislation to get those. Parties in the US aren't monolithic entities, and there's a wide range of thought within the Democratic caucus. This is how you iron those thoughts out.

I'm not even sure what you mean avoid all this drama? This is how legislation is crafted... it's always been how legislation is crafted. Maybe people didn't realize it before the 24 hour news cycle? Are you looking to implement an alternative method of legislating? If so, what would you change?

Yes, I do understand that and the problem I see in this forum is the rush to blamestorm and point at the usual bogeyman (the Republicans) as the source of all the world's evils, ignoring the role that the Democrats themselves played in this fiasco. The Blue Dogs were the major source of obstruction during the entire debate, not Republicans.

The drama I am referring to is the ridiculous "Nebraska Compromise," in this particular case.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, I do understand that and the problem I see in this forum is the rush to blamestorm and point at the usual bogeyman (the Republicans) as the source of all the world's evils, ignoring the role that the Democrats themselves played in this fiasco. The Blue Dogs were the major source of obstruction during the entire debate, not Republicans.

The drama I am referring to is the ridiculous "Nebraska Compromise," in this particular case.

But I mean that sort of thing happens all the time. Sure it's shady, but it's hardly new.

I think the frustration comes with the increasing polarization of the two parties. In years past there were usually a few moderates in each party that could be counted on to cross over, and that's not really the case now.

The Democrats have far more moderates than the Republicans do currently by simple virtue of their electoral success. (currently Republicans lost in pretty much all the moderate districts so the remainder tend to be extremely conservative), that's why much of the negotiating that people feel should happen with the Republicans happens inside the Democratic party with conservative Democrats who aren't actually that much different than more centrist Republicans anyway. (here's a ideological breakdown, it's a bit old but it still mostly holds. http://www.voteview.com/sen110.htm)

Furthermore, we all know that the Republicans are playing politics here. I bet you that if the breakdown were 59-41, a single Republican would find it in their heart to vote for this legislation, but since it's 60-40 they know they can sit back and obstruct without paying a political penalty. There's nothing wrong with that as the Democrats would do it to, but I still find it very odd that people would let 40 people voting against a bill off the hook, but blame the party where one guy did.

 

[eits]

No, the Democrats wanted to pass something, ANYTHING, to save face after all their tough talk after winning big in 08. That is the truth, not these lame excuses like the one above. Only partisan hacks fall for the "it is the Republican's fault!" hook, line, and sinker, when in fact, all the Democrats had to do was vote along party lines and they could do anything they wanted. Instead of concerning themselves with the Republicans, the Democrats should have put together legislation that would have been palatable to all factions in their party in the first place and avoided all of this drama.

The Democrats talked a big game after the 08 election and like a puppy who has had an accident, they are getting their faces rubbed in their own crap because of it.

um, you're ridiculous. they were trying to get a bill that even republicans could vote for.

 

[ProfJohn]

um, you're ridiculous. they were trying to get a bill that even republicans could vote for.

Bull shit!

They didn't even bother talking to the Republicans. This has been the Democrats show since day one.

 

[Darwin333]

We're not as stupid as you may think. It has been the republicans who have been fighting this since the Clinton days. You don't think they haven't been getting their share of the special interest money/perks?? LMAO@U if that's what you're trying to claim.

You make a valid point but in the context of this thread the Democrats are the ones that crafted the insurance and Big Pharma bailout bill and they are the ones that will vote and sign it into law.

 

[Darwin333]

republicans are like the borg. they assimilate behind whoever they think is giving them the "REAL" story. one you start repeating bullshit over and over again, it causes doubt and logic starts to go out the window (for example, tea party rallies).

democrats are the complete opposite of the borg. for the most part, they like to be fair and listen to both sides. unfortunately, although it makes sense to be that way, it sucks when you're faced against a tital wave of spiteful negativity that catches on and spreads like a virus. that's why everyone started off wanting a public option, and then once fox news starts to cast doubt in peoples' minds, they're no longer for it and decide they want to hold out for something else.

ultimately, what ends up happening is a shitty bill like this one. the democrats are sick and tired of the ulcers they get from worrying about what everyone else thinks and says, "fuck it" and just signs whatever the party says just to get shit over with and the republicans used up all their cause-doubt-and-hysteria cards... they're like the boy who cried wolf.

So Fox News and a party that is essentially powerless in the House, Senate and White House have basically out played the Democrats who control, with super majorities, the house and Senate as well as the White house?

If that is true then the Repubs are either political geniuses or the Dems are idiots.

 

[Darwin333]

um, you're ridiculous. they were trying to get a bill that even republicans could vote for.

Since when? And the bullshit of getting a single person in the opposing party to vote for a bill so they can call it "bipartisan" doesn't count. Even if it did, the Dems would be flat out idiots to try and craft a healthcare bill that "even the Republicans could vote for" because even if the Republicans did like some or even most of it they still wouldn't vote for it.

 

[fskimospy]

So Fox News and a party that is essentially powerless in the House, Senate and White House have basically out played the Democrats who control, with super majorities, the house and Senate as well as the White house?

If that is true then the Repubs are either political geniuses or the Dems are idiots.

No, the Republican caucus is just a lot less diverse than the Democratic one.

 

[Lemon law]

Bull shit!

They didn't even bother talking to the Republicans. This has been the Democrats show since day one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, we can not let that totally false statement stand without challenge.

Both Obama and the democrats in the house and Senate bent over backwards to get the GOP aboard early on. And early on many GOP members did propose various positive amendments that did add to the quality of an overall health care reform bill. The problem was, the very GOP members who proposed the positive amendments ended up voting everything down in a lock step manner.

Only at the later stages of the health care reform bill, when it became apparent that the GOP would support nothing in the ways of ANY change or reform, was all hope for the GOP abandoned. and can we then blame the democrats when they just did health care reform on their own.

Get em clue, non Prof John, its not that the dems excluded the GOP from participating, it was the GOP that refused to contribute or even debate honesty. The dems left the door wide open to the GOP but the GOP refused to come in, and in the same way, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

 

[eits]

So Fox News and a party that is essentially powerless in the House, Senate and White House have basically out played the Democrats who control, with super majorities, the house and Senate as well as the White house?

If that is true then the Repubs are either political geniuses or the Dems are idiots.

one begets the other, but basically, yes.

the republicans are really good at rallying with one unified voice and opinion and spiteful negativity. the democrats either refuse to be as petty or they just suck at unifying because they like to recognize diversity and try to work with it. these days, that just doesn't work against the fox/gop machine. it's like you losers all have the same mind or something... it's really a phenomenon.

 

[Fear No Evil]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, we can not let that totally false statement stand without challenge.

Both Obama and the democrats in the house and Senate bent over backwards to get the GOP aboard early on. And early on many GOP members did propose various positive amendments that did add to the quality of an overall health care reform bill. The problem was, the very GOP members who proposed the positive amendments ended up voting everything down in a lock step manner.

Only at the later stages of the health care reform bill, when it became apparent that the GOP would support nothing in the ways of ANY change or reform, was all hope for the GOP abandoned. and can we then blame the democrats when they just did health care reform on their own.

Get em clue, non Prof John, its not that the dems excluded the GOP from participating, it was the GOP that refused to contribute or even debate honesty. The dems left the door wide open to the GOP but the GOP refused to come in, and in the same way, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

You lie. Just like your failure of a President.

 

[Fear No Evil]

one begets the other, but basically, yes.

the republicans are really good at rallying with one unified voice and opinion and spiteful negativity. the democrats either refuse to be as petty or they just suck at unifying because they like to recognize diversity and try to work with it. these days, that just doesn't work against the fox/gop machine. it's like you losers all have the same mind or something... it's really a phenomenon.

You forgot to include 'Rush Limbaugh' in your talking points.

 

[Ozoned]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, we can not let that totally false statement stand without challenge.

Both Obama and the democrats in the house and Senate bent over backwards to get the GOP aboard early on. And early on many GOP members did propose various positive amendments that did add to the quality of an overall health care reform bill. The problem was, the very GOP members who proposed the positive amendments ended up voting everything down in a lock step manner.

Only at the later stages of the health care reform bill, when it became apparent that the GOP would support nothing in the ways of ANY change or reform, was all hope for the GOP abandoned. and can we then blame the democrats when they just did health care reform on their own.

Get em clue, non Prof John, its not that the dems excluded the GOP from participating, it was the GOP that refused to contribute or even debate honesty. The dems left the door wide open to the GOP but the GOP refused to come in, and in the same way, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

GOP was locked out on 10/21/2009 right after Dems skipped out on the countrywide sweetheart deal investigation.

http://rossputin.com/blog/index.php/to-avoid-countrywide-vote-democrats-sneak-out-change-locks

 

[IndyColtsFan]

um, you're ridiculous. they were trying to get a bill that even republicans could vote for.

You can keep saying it as many times as you want, but that won't make it true.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

one begets the other, but basically, yes.

the republicans are really good at rallying with one unified voice and opinion and spiteful negativity. the democrats either refuse to be as petty or they just suck at unifying because they like to recognize diversity and try to work with it. these days, that just doesn't work against the fox/gop machine. it's like you losers all have the same mind or something... it's really a phenomenon.

 

[Robor]

You can keep saying it as many times as you want, but that won't make it true.

How many R's voted for any of the bills again?

 

[Fear No Evil]

I'll second that - The kind of diversity that took someone like Lieberman and threw him out of the party because he disagreed with them on Iraq? Lets take a guy that agrees with us 98.44% of the time and throw his ass out because of 1 issue. Real 'diverse'.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

How many R's voted for any of the bills again?

Keep up here, please. How many R votes were needed?

HINT: None.

 

[Robor]

I'll second that - The kind of diversity that took someone like Lieberman and threw him out of the party because he disagreed with them on Iraq? Lets take a guy that agrees with us 98.44% of the time and throw his ass out because of 1 issue. Real 'diverse'.

How convenient that you ignore the fact that LIEberman campaigned against the Democratic presidential candidate.

 

[Robor]

Keep up here, please. How many R votes were needed?

HINT: None.

How many times has this been explained? Enough that I know I'm not going to bother.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

How many times has this been explained? Enough that I know I'm not going to bother.

You're right, it has been, and you guys STILL don't get it. I fondly remember this quote:

Talk about a mandate; this poll demolishes the idea that the public will oppose health care reform legislation from Obama and the Democrats. Quite the opposite, it paints a picture of an electorate that is eager for reform to happen this year. With huge majorities in Congress, health care reform will be a done deal by the fall, regardless of how much the right-wing whines about it.

So then, you guys could claim that no Republicans could stop you, but now, suddenly, they are the obstructionists? Even though the Democrats are the ones now sucking up to "evil" big insurance, which you guys lambasted Republicans for? The irony is just too delicious.

You guys are complaining that the bill has been 'watered down' to appease Republicans, but yet, no Republican will vote for this turd. So explain again who it was watered down for?