HC passes Senate

[ProfJohn]

things that disappoint me about this whole thing:

- this isn't health care... this is sick care
- if it wasn't for the spiteful bitchass republicans and their mouthpieces, like glenn beck, this bill would never have been created... the public option would have passed and it would have been better
- no one seems to mind that there's no regulation on the insurance companies, who don't have to abide by anti-trust laws
- earmarks for votes (aka politics)
- it's just like taking something that's broken, breaking it more, and saying, "yay! i fixed it!"


i'm extremely disappointed in my party, but not delusional or ignorant enough enough to become a republican

also, for anyone who is gonna bitch and whine about "who's gonna pay for the public option waaah waaah", it's simple... we would, as well we should, you greedy bastards. so your taxes go up just a tiny bit... big goddamn deal. your country will be a much healthier and happier country because of it. it's time you people woke up and started thinking about making the country a better place.

1. The Democrats control both houses of congress by huge margins. They can pass any bill they want without ONE Republican vote. The public option was killed by DEMOCRATS in the senate who would not vote for it.

2. Raise taxes a tiny bit?? Are you delusional or just stupid? Single payer equated to a complete government take over of healthcare. Doing that would require an additional $1 trillion a year in taxes, at current healthcare spending rates. Currently the government only raises about $2 trillion a year in taxes, thus going to single payer would require a 50% increase in tax revenue to the government.

Are you prepared to pay 50% more in taxes than you do now?

 

[umbrella39]

More baseless FUD from the shit factory. Nothing to see...

The fear didn't work the last 10 years, insanity would be attempting it again and expecting different results. Enjoy the sidelines dipshits.

 

[OrByte]

I didn't read/post much in P&N back in 2003 but I wonder how many modern day 'fiscal conservatives' raging against health care reform today were doing the same for Bush's Medicare plan. I suspect they are few and far between.

Republican Deficit Hypocrisy / Bruce Bartlett, 11.20.09, 12:01 AM EST / Remember the Medicare drug benefit?

great read. it appears that for both instances (Medicare part D and HC reform) the dems are more fiscally responsible than the pubs

 

[BoberFett]

- if it wasn't for the spiteful bitchass republicans and their mouthpieces, like glenn beck, this bill would never have been created... the public option would have passed and it would have been better

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

 

[blackangst1]

For the most part when you ask a doc about fee for service you get puzzled looks as damn near everyone pays with insurance. I would assume the situation has improved as HSAs have gained some traction in the past few years. My old dentists however gave me a pretty good discount when we dropped dental insurance and went fee for service.

I understand. He probably doesnt have his long list of fee for service memorized as he doesnt need it...its no different than my job (network engineer) when I have a spanning tree issue. It doesnt fail very often and when it does I have to consult a cheat sheet because I troubleshoot it so infrequently; however, to say they cant quickly pull it up is ludicrous. Hell, my doc has it posted in the waiting room.

 

[blackangst1]

1. The Democrats control both houses of congress by huge margins. They can pass any bill they want without ONE Republican vote. The public option was killed by DEMOCRATS in the senate who would not vote for it.

Because they blame the blue dogs. Maybe theyre R's in disguise, but whatever the reason it causes strife within their own party. But it certainly isnt the R's problem why they cant get solidarity within their own party.

 

[Genx87]

Where's the right wing outrage for the Financial Regulatory Reform bill passed just a couple weeks ago?

*crickets*

I'll be honest and havent heard much of anything much about it. You have a link so I can read about it?

 

[Genx87]

Please explain to us, in some kind of coherent detail and without resorting to empty rhetoric, how our existing healthcare system is free market-based.

For example, free markets require negotiation of fees and services prior to completion of the transaction. Yet, when I go to my doctor, he won't tell me what he charges, not even for routine exam. I get to find that out later. But if say I bought a house, the price of the house, everything that comes with it, and the detailed cost of financing would all be disclosed at closing. Because you see, that's how a 'free market' works.

So one could elaborate and say that the insurer is acting as my, the medical consumer's, agent... but they're not. They don't negotiate on my behalf, they negotiate on their behalf. More to the point, I don't even know what they, the insurance company, charges for their services. My employer pays that cost, and they won't tell me because they get special group pricing and tax breaks. And hey, I get tax breaks too, my portion of the premiums are deducted from my paycheck pre-tax. But if I wanted to get my own health insurance, my employer won't give me the actual difference it would cost them to insure me (although they will give me a small pittance of the difference), and I won't be able to buy the same quality health insurance for anywhere near the same price they pay.

And so forth and so on. If that's your idea of a free market, then pal, you obviously don't know what a free market is.

Thank you. Our health care system is anything but Free Market.

 

[Lemon law]

Because they blame the blue dogs. Maybe theyre R's in disguise, but whatever the reason it causes strife within their own party. But it certainly isnt the R's problem why they cant get solidarity within their own party.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the prospect of a 2 party government where all the issue are decided only because
one of those lock step parties happen to have more votes than the other at the time should horrify us all.

What happened to deciding things on the issue and not as a power struggle bloody scalp to dangle as a trophy before either a herd of happy elephants or donkeys. Proving once again that the more numerous party can win any tug of war pissing contest for the next two years. And only that little nagging devil is left whispering in their ears, come next election voters may throw you rascals out.

That to some extent is what happened to health care reform, and I do not buy the fact that blue dog democrats are the rascals that killed health care reform. Simply because principled Republicans could have easily made up for the numbers of wavering blue dogs, we could have had a better debate on the real issues, and we could have passed on far better reform.

But I am not sure if I should laugh or cry on this thread. Here we have all those posters still trying to convince us that health care reform is the end of the world horrible. Well, I guess it keeps them out of the pool halls and distracts them re-fighting the civil war, and other acts of revisionist history. BUT ITS STILL an EXERCISE IN FUTILITY, health care reform will become the law of the land, and now we the American people have to make that Turkey fly. And because we got a fat, over bloated, and weak turkey instead of the better one we could have had, we the American people are going to have to work harder to fix the Turkey.

 

[MrMatt]

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

amen.

 

[Zebo]

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

LOL. +1 This is even what democrats say like dean, greenwalt and thousands more.

 

[blackangst1]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the prospect of a 2 party government where all the issue are decided only because
one of those lock step parties happen to have more votes than the other at the time should horrify us all.

What happened to deciding things on the issue and not as a power struggle bloody scalp to dangle as a trophy before either a herd of happy elephants or donkeys. Proving once again that the more numerous party can win any tug of war pissing contest for the next two years. And only that little nagging devil is left whispering in their ears, come next election voters may throw you rascals out.

I dont disagree at all. The reason we dont have multiple parties is...:drum roll:....Americans arent electing them. Its pretty simple.

That to some extent is what happened to health care reform, and I do not buy the fact that blue dog democrats are the rascals that killed health care reform. Simply because principled Republicans could have easily made up for the numbers of wavering blue dogs, we could have had a better debate on the real issues, and we could have passed on far better reform.

Uh, OK. The problem of lack of solidarity is the Democrat's fault entirely no matter how you spin it.

But I am not sure if I should laugh or cry on this thread. Here we have all those posters still trying to convince us that health care reform is the end of the world horrible. Well, I guess it keeps them out of the pool halls and distracts them re-fighting the civil war, and other acts of revisionist history. BUT ITS STILL an EXERCISE IN FUTILITY, health care reform will become the law of the land, and now we the American people have to make that Turkey fly. And because we got a fat, over bloated, and weak turkey instead of the better one we could have had, we the American people are going to have to work harder to fix the Turkey.

Not any time soon. A giant welfare bill will passed for sure. But reform is no where to be seen.

 

[nobodyknows]

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

We're not as stupid as you may think. It has been the republicans who have been fighting this since the Clinton days. You don't think they haven't been getting their share of the special interest money/perks?? LMAO@U if that's what you're trying to claim.

 

[nobodyknows]

LOL. +1 This is even what democrats say like dean, greenwalt and thousands more.

The problem is that these same fuckers (D's and R's) don't have to live under the same rules as the majority of the rest of us. Just like when they went to war and only one legislator had a kid in the miltary. They are all a bunch of hypocrits out to make an easy buck off of us suckers.

We need to start stringing a few of the bastards up. Let some of their hypocritic blood get spilled. How long are we supposed to pretend we don't know we're getting fucked befpre we get the balls to do something abpout it??

The only chance for reform was with the Dems and I still think Hillary was the best shot of getting some true reform but all you dumb younsters said she was part of the problem and we needed someone "new". Boy did you dumbasses ever shoot yourselves in the foot and now we all have to live with it just like we had to live with the monster asshole Bush for 8 YEARS.

All I can say is "I TOLD YOU SO".

 

[Lemon law]

Blackagainst1 entirely misses the point I made, when he notes, "Uh, OK. The problem of lack of solidarity is the Democrat's fault entirely no matter how you spin it."

Idiot, its a good thing and not a bad thing that a political party does not act in a lock step manner. We can all differ on issues and what is best for the country, but it was the Republirats that are showing they care only about maximizing their own power. As they try to impose a tyranny of minority.

Get a clue GOP, its that kind of behavior that has lost you the presidency and a pile of legislative seats for the past two elections in a row. And the GOP has hit a new low in dishonesty in debate in regard to health care reform.

I remind you, just five short years ago, that it was then Senate GOP majority leader Frisk who proposed doing away with the filibuster, and that was thankfully stopped by a principled coalition of Democratic and Republican Senators.

And GOD no yeech yuck, I will not advocate democrats repeat the same doing away with the filibuster, but right now that may be the only way to get anything done in this country to restore debating issues on the issues in the USA. And to get anything done in terms of fixing things.

Any party that 100% thinks our existing health care system was perfect and thus could not be improved in any way deserves to be voted out of existence. Yep, I just described today's GOP, a formerly great political party that has totally lost its way.

 

[brencat]

Any party that 100% thinks our existing health care system was perfect and thus could not be improved in any way deserves to be voted out of existence. Yep, I just described today's GOP, a formerly great political party that has totally lost its way.

I don't think there are many rational people who would say health care in this country was perfect. At the same time, creating the architecture to deliver a massive new entitlement which is what a public option would be as well as this turd of a HC bill did isn't the answer either. I would have preferred to see the ability to purchase insurance across state lines coupled with malpractice lawsuit reform -- no matter how difficult the first part would have been to achieve (breaking the states' regulation of insurance) before promising mine and my childrens tax dollars on something the lefties think they deserve in this country.

News flash: you're all not entitled to shit. Other than the wreched poor and invalid (which we already provide for), you're only entitled to food, shelter, clothing, a job if you get up everyday motivated. Otherwise, you can die homeless. I really don't give a fvck. Sorry if that seems too harsh. That's life.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Any party that 100% thinks our existing health care system was perfect and thus could not be improved in any way deserves to be voted out of existence. Yep, I just described today's GOP, a formerly great political party that has totally lost its way.

Well wouldn't it be great if the Dems had gotten people together who know something about health care and gotten their crap in a group before deciding to write legislation about something they don't understand which has nothing to do with health care per se, then call it that?

It's like listening to the Neocons all over again, just on a different topic. No doubt the majority of Dems here thought it was about health care initially, just like Saddam was about WMDs or terrorism, and just as reluctant to admit they were wrong from the start. This is about insurance, which isn't health care. Allow the people who provide services to do it right without breathing down their necks or creating systems which are virtually impossible to navigate for billing and that's a start.

No one ever really gave a shit about that though. It was the Dems fighting the Reps, and each side pointing at the other as being at fault, when in fact neither side had a clue.

Well whatever this becomes, it's just what you asked for. Maybe not in words, but in a fools course of action.

We'll watch more finger pointing by the partisans as this devolves.

 

[werepossum]

I don't think there are many rational people who would say health care in this country was perfect. At the same time, creating the architecture to deliver a massive new entitlement which is what a public option would be as well as this turd of a HC bill did isn't the answer either. I would have preferred to see the ability to purchase insurance across state lines coupled with malpractice lawsuit reform -- no matter how difficult the first part would have been to achieve (breaking the states' regulation of insurance) before promising mine and my childrens tax dollars on something the lefties think they deserve in this country.

News flash: you're all not entitled to shit. Other than the wreched poor and invalid (which we already provide for), you're only entitled to food, shelter, clothing, a job if you get up everyday motivated. Otherwise, you can die homeless. I really don't give a fvck. Sorry if that seems too harsh. That's life.

Lemon's logic is indicative of those who think if you don't support any change they label "reform" then you are arguing that the system is perfect. Change is not necessarily good or bad, but must always be evaluated on its own merits.

 

[Darwin333]

Mine does...anecdotal perhaps? And what does that have to do with anything? OK, so providers give you a PDF file with all their charges before they treat you. And then?

I had a planters wart on my foot, went to the foot doc who worked his voodoo and killed it. On the followup apointment it was dead but there was still some dead skin left. He told me it would fall off on its own in a week or so but since I was there he would take care of it. He pulled out what looked to be a dremel tool and in less than 2 minutes he was done. All was well.

2 months later I got a bill for $550 for the above dremel tool treatment that my insurance didn't cover. I understand that most medical procedures are different and it would be darn near impossible to post a "menu" but there has to be a better way. If I would have known that it cost more than 50 bucks I would have been fine with waiting for it to fall off but I didn't know my insurance didn't cover it and I surely had no idea what the cost for the procedure was. If I had known the cost I would have waited regardless.

There has to be a better way to inform patients of a ballpark range BEFORE you treat them in cases like mine. Life threatening stuff and when the patient is unconciense etc.. is understandable but I am talking about routine stuff.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Blackagainst1 entirely misses the point I made, when he notes, "Uh, OK. The problem of lack of solidarity is the Democrat's fault entirely no matter how you spin it."

Idiot, its a good thing and not a bad thing that a political party does not act in a lock step manner. We can all differ on issues and what is best for the country, but it was the Republirats that are showing they care only about maximizing their own power. As they try to impose a tyranny of minority.

Get a clue GOP, its that kind of behavior that has lost you the presidency and a pile of legislative seats for the past two elections in a row. And the GOP has hit a new low in dishonesty in debate in regard to health care reform.

I remind you, just five short years ago, that it was then Senate GOP majority leader Frisk who proposed doing away with the filibuster, and that was thankfully stopped by a principled coalition of Democratic and Republican Senators.

And GOD no yeech yuck, I will not advocate democrats repeat the same doing away with the filibuster, but right now that may be the only way to get anything done in this country to restore debating issues on the issues in the USA. And to get anything done in terms of fixing things.

Any party that 100% thinks our existing health care system was perfect and thus could not be improved in any way deserves to be voted out of existence. Yep, I just described today's GOP, a formerly great political party that has totally lost its way.

I do not think anyone feels that the existing healthcare system can not be improved.

What is actually being improved in Health Care itself (which is what the original talk was about and what 10+ years ago Hillary was pitching for ) by this bill.

Forcing people to purchase something; penalizing people that have it and placing selective taxes to pay for it before delivering anything. That is Health Care Reform or is it Health Coverage Cost Shifting?

 

[eits]

Haha, you stupid suckers are still trying to blame this on Republicans. News flash, fucktards. Republicans are the minority. They had no power to do anything. This is all Democrats. You've been had. The Democrats have taken a shitload of PAC money from the health care industry and this is their way of repaying their donors. What a bunch of suckers you are. You've been sold out by your party and you're too stupid to realize it.

republicans are like the borg. they assimilate behind whoever they think is giving them the "REAL" story. one you start repeating bullshit over and over again, it causes doubt and logic starts to go out the window (for example, tea party rallies).

democrats are the complete opposite of the borg. for the most part, they like to be fair and listen to both sides. unfortunately, although it makes sense to be that way, it sucks when you're faced against a tital wave of spiteful negativity that catches on and spreads like a virus. that's why everyone started off wanting a public option, and then once fox news starts to cast doubt in peoples' minds, they're no longer for it and decide they want to hold out for something else.

ultimately, what ends up happening is a shitty bill like this one. the democrats are sick and tired of the ulcers they get from worrying about what everyone else thinks and says, "fuck it" and just signs whatever the party says just to get shit over with and the republicans used up all their cause-doubt-and-hysteria cards... they're like the boy who cried wolf.

 

[Lemon law]

In all due respect to Common Courtesy, the statement of, "Forcing people to purchase something; penalizing people that have it and placing selective taxes to pay for it before delivering anything. That is Health Care Reform or is it Health Coverage Cost Shifting", may unwittingly raise some very good questions.

But like it or not, the USA has taken the first halting steps towards joining the rest of the world in socialized medicine.

When we have the prospect that even the super rich cannot purchase health miracles for them selves or their children, no matter how rich they are, we have to wonder about a health system for profit that denies even rudimentary health care for the economically disadvantaged. In the end, we will all die, be we rich or poor. But we are all Americans and should not basic health care be a right rather than the leading cause of personal bankruptcy?

And we must all ask a few more questions. (1) If that greedy doctor tries to go for the maximum bucks, they are now screwed now that the USA has JOINED ALL OTHER MAJOR INDUSTRIALIZED NATIONS IN SOCIALIZING MEDICINE, they can't exactly flee to Haiti to escape socialized medicine and go to a place where medicine is not socialized. (2) The health care cost shifting is in fact a compelling argument when many employers get a free ride. And that foolish US automotive industry that formerly paid more than their fair share of national health care costs are now in bankruptcy because of it. So is that the cure, opt out of our former employer based health care system, so no one who is gainfully employed can get health insurance? And those employers who still grants health care to their employees will be forced to opt out as well? (3) Can we have fond love for our private insurance companies and greedy hospitals who hold the uninsured upside down shaking them for every dime and forcing them into bankruptcy when private insurance companies at least prevented those abuses for only those they insured? Without the collective bargaining of insurance, Hospitals and other providers can and do charge outrageous prices on the order of triple or more for the same service. Is that fair? Yet its true.(4) And to all you young whippersnappers now blessed with the good health of youth, if you are fortunate to live long enough, you will need expensive health care to maintain your quality of life as you age. Do you really want to see all the economic gains you earned in a lifetime of hard work go to health care providers and not to your children and loved ones?

Its not a matter that we did not debate the health care issues long enough, US health care reform has been overdue for decades, we got a pile of dishonest debate again, and we got less than a best law as a result. And partisan politics is only a part of the problem. But make no mistake here, the health care reform train has already left the station in less than perfect mechanical shape. The health care reform train is never going to back up and return to the abuses we had, so we better all improve upon our health care reform trains mechanical shape if we want to have a better future.

And its no damn accident that every country that has gone to socialized medicine has never opted to go back to the stinking system the USA had.

 

[Ozoned]

What happens if the federal mandate of requiring citizens to purchase a service from a private company is challenged and found to be un-constitutional?

Does that kill the whole bill, or just that part of it?

 

[blackangst1]

Blackagainst1 entirely misses the point I made, when he notes, "Uh, OK. The problem of lack of solidarity is the Democrat's fault entirely no matter how you spin it."

Idiot, its a good thing and not a bad thing that a political party does not act in a lock step manner. We can all differ on issues and what is best for the country, but it was the Republirats that are showing they care only about maximizing their own power. As they try to impose a tyranny of minority.

Get a clue GOP, its that kind of behavior that has lost you the presidency and a pile of legislative seats for the past two elections in a row. And the GOP has hit a new low in dishonesty in debate in regard to health care reform.

I remind you, just five short years ago, that it was then Senate GOP majority leader Frisk who proposed doing away with the filibuster, and that was thankfully stopped by a principled coalition of Democratic and Republican Senators.

And GOD no yeech yuck, I will not advocate democrats repeat the same doing away with the filibuster, but right now that may be the only way to get anything done in this country to restore debating issues on the issues in the USA. And to get anything done in terms of fixing things.

Any party that 100% thinks our existing health care system was perfect and thus could not be improved in any way deserves to be voted out of existence. Yep, I just described today's GOP, a formerly great political party that has totally lost its way.

A "tyranny of minority"?



And BTW...there is not a party in the US that thinks our existing health care system is/was perfect. And no, you didnt just describe the GOP. You showed what a naive idiot you really are.

 

[werepossum]

I had a planters wart on my foot, went to the foot doc who worked his voodoo and killed it. On the followup apointment it was dead but there was still some dead skin left. He told me it would fall off on its own in a week or so but since I was there he would take care of it. He pulled out what looked to be a dremel tool and in less than 2 minutes he was done. All was well.

2 months later I got a bill for $550 for the above dremel tool treatment that my insurance didn't cover. I understand that most medical procedures are different and it would be darn near impossible to post a "menu" but there has to be a better way. If I would have known that it cost more than 50 bucks I would have been fine with waiting for it to fall off but I didn't know my insurance didn't cover it and I surely had no idea what the cost for the procedure was. If I had known the cost I would have waited regardless.

There has to be a better way to inform patients of a ballpark range BEFORE you treat them in cases like mine. Life threatening stuff and when the patient is unconciense etc.. is understandable but I am talking about routine stuff.

You have to learn to ask "What's this going to cost?" and "What are my options?" It's really not that hard.

If we as a country do not learn to ask those questions and actively manage our own health care, then it will be managed for us by government bureaucrats or insurance agency clerks.