HC passes Senate

[bfdd]

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Earth to spidey 07, you do not speak for the American people and repeating a minority party GOP talking point once more does not make it true.

IMHO the health care bill passed by congress could have been far better, but what we got is better than nothing.

Its just very sad that the GOP was 100% lock step opposed to any health care reform.

But we could have had a much better HC bill if the GOP was willing to contribute as a positive force. But at least this one starts us all out on a better path even though we are
going to have to go and fix missing things like the public option.

no it's really not better than nothing, doing nothing will imo prove to of been the better solution than to what has been passed. i'd bet on that.

 

[fskimospy]

How is forcing people to buy insurance (which, by the way, WHERE is the Constitutional allowance for the government to FORCE you to buy something? Hint, IT ISN'T THERE!) and spending MORE money going to fix the issue we have now? Hmm???

It won't. Plain and simple. It is just going to make things worse. This country is already broke and it way too much debt as it is. Spending more, and taxing more, isn't going to fix a thing.

It's a tax, and the overwhelming majority of legal analysis that I've read said that it should pass Constitutional muster no problem.

Your second point is silly for several reasons, first it assumes the only problem we have with health care is that we spend too much money on it, and second it seems to assume that you can't get long term savings from up front expenditures. Do you realize that you are already taxed for health care by corporations every time you buy a single one of their products?

You are right though, if we had really wanted to solve our health care problem we would have enacted a single payer system, the tried and proven method that's used the world over. Maybe someday, but I guess not today.

 

[fskimospy]

no it's really not better than nothing, doing nothing will imo prove to of been the better solution than to what has been passed. i'd bet on that.

Please detail why doing nothing would have been better than what has been passed. Include specific provisions along with what you think their effect will be.

 

[blackangst1]

Earth to spidey 07, you do not speak for the American people

but what we got is better than nothing.

But at least this one starts us all out on a better path

Nor do you.

 

[charrison]

Please detail why doing nothing would have been better than what has been passed. Include specific provisions along with what you think their effect will be.

Well according to the cbo costs are going to rise more than if we did nothing. IT will also pretty much kill HSAs, which are one area that have been holding health care costs flat.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe we need to view overall health care as a cost the American people owe to the American people. As as overall health care costs were inflating at double digit rates year after year, health care costs are now a greater slice of GDP than Government itself.

What is being rejiggered is who pays for what in terms of our overall net National health care costs. And some had been paying more than their fair share and others were getting a free ride. And our existing health care system was in danger of collapse because those entities paying for far more than their fair share were opting out.

As Eskimospy noted, we could have gotten significant overall efficiencies by enacting a single payer system, which could have reduced overall health care costs. Another area where we could get overall cost reductions is in doing more in the area of preventive medicine.

But if this bill can reduce our net national health care costs while providing a more equitable sharing of expenses, there will be far more winners in this bill than losers.

 

[charrison]

Maybe we need to view overall health care as a cost the American people owe to the American people. As as overall health care costs were inflating at double digit rates year after year, health care costs are now a greater slice of GDP than Government itself.

What is being rejiggered is who pays for what in terms of our overall net National health care costs. And some had been paying more than their fair share and others were getting a free ride. And our existing health care system was in danger of collapse because those entities paying for far more than their fair share were opting out.

As Eskimospy noted, we could have gotten significant overall efficiencies by enacting a single payer system, which could have reduced overall health care costs. Another area where we could get overall cost reductions is in doing more in the area of preventive medicine.

But if this bill can reduce our net national health care costs while providing a more equitable sharing of expenses, there will be far more winners in this bill than losers.

We are not going to fix the problem by changing who pays for health care costs. As long as there is a 3rd party involved(insurance or govt), the consumer is going to demand more and more "cheap" health care. If you want to bring health care costs under control, you have let consumers know the real costs of care. $20 copays mask the real costs and keep markets from working. This would lower costs for everyone and create winners across the board, rather punishing some and giving freebies to others.

Just allowing insurance to be sold across state lines would be of significant benefit for most at no cost to the govt.

 

[spidey07]

I can predict the future. This guarantees premium costs go up, they have to. And when people bitch congress' response will be "well if we didn't pass this costs would have been worse!" Nonsense.

And this directly increases my taxes so in addition to premium costs going up, I'll pay more tax on them as well, the cadillac plans.

 

[Jaskalas]

no it's really not better than nothing, doing nothing will imo prove to of been the better solution than to what has been passed. i'd bet on that.

Regarding the merits of doing something or nothing.

Any bill passed will release all the pressure to create a real solution. For better or worse you’ll be stuck with whatever is passed and that will be the end of it for many years. It works against a real solution by taking its place.

 

[blackangst1]

Maybe we need to view overall health care as a cost the American people owe to the American people. As as overall health care costs were inflating at double digit rates year after year, health care costs are now a greater slice of GDP than Government itself.

What is being rejiggered is who pays for what in terms of our overall net National health care costs. And some had been paying more than their fair share and others were getting a free ride. And our existing health care system was in danger of collapse because those entities paying for far more than their fair share were opting out.

As Eskimospy noted, we could have gotten significant overall efficiencies by enacting a single payer system, which could have reduced overall health care costs. Another area where we could get overall cost reductions is in doing more in the area of preventive medicine.

But if this bill can reduce our net national health care costs while providing a more equitable sharing of expenses, there will be far more winners in this bill than losers.

You know, I actually agree with what you said (except that our health care system was in no way in danger of collapsing, but thats another thread). Im sure you understand, in your final sentence, the key word is IF. Maybe you can point it out (since no one else has been able to) where in the current proposed legislation shows it will lower cost.

Hint: It wont.

 

[blackangst1]

We are not going to fix the problem by changing who pays for health care costs. As long as there is a 3rd party involved(insurance or govt), the consumer is going to demand more and more "cheap" health care. If you want to bring health care costs under control, you have let consumers know the real costs of care. $20 copays mask the real costs and keep markets from working. This would lower costs for everyone and create winners across the board, rather punishing some and giving freebies to others.

Just allowing insurance to be sold across state lines would be of significant benefit for most at no cost to the govt.

You realize there will be a large difference in cost depending on who/where does what, right? For example, an MRI will cost differently in KS than it will in Los Angeles due to things like lease/insurance overhead, staff overhead, equipment, etc. Also, when comparing things like surgeries, the cost of the physicion will vary immensly. For example, a heart proceedure will more than likely cost 10x at the Cleveland or Mayo clinics than it would in say North Central Bronx hospital.

Just something to think about.

 

[charrison]

You realize there will be a large difference in cost depending on who/where does what, right? For example, an MRI will cost differently in KS than it will in Los Angeles due to things like lease/insurance overhead, staff overhead, equipment, etc. Also, when comparing things like surgeries, the cost of the physicion will vary immensly. For example, a heart proceedure will more than likely cost 10x at the Cleveland or Mayo clinics than it would in say North Central Bronx hospital.

Just something to think about.

You know there is large difference between the cost of an MRI when billed to insurance versus a consumer paying cash for it no matter the location?

You know when the consumer only has to pay a copay it removes most of the market forces that force prices down.

 

[boomerang]

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Earth to spidey 07, you do not speak for the American people and repeating a minority party GOP talking point once more does not make it true.

Here's some links to polls for you. If you think you can take the Oblinders off, read them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_121509.html?sid=ST2009121504003
Item 2b

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJ_NBCpoll121609.pdf
Items 27 and 28

http://people-press.org/report/572/mixed-views-of-obama-at-year-end
First box on the right at the top under 'Health care proposals in Congress..."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx
Title of the article says it all. "Majority of Americans Still Not Backing Healthcare Bill"

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/12/21/rel19a.pdf
Item 20

You are of course welcome to keep pretending. There is no mandate to face reality. You can keep thinking that you're really on top of things, but the majority of Americans no better and we're laughing at you.

 

[Vic]

Where's the right wing outrage for the Financial Regulatory Reform bill passed just a couple weeks ago?

*crickets*

 

[charrison]

Where's the right wing outrage for the Financial Regulatory Reform bill passed just a couple weeks ago?

*crickets*

What does that have to do with a bad health care bill?

 

[spidey07]

where's the right wing outrage for the financial regulatory reform bill passed just a couple weeks ago?

*crickets*

quick! Divert! Divert!

Pay no mind to what Obama is saying, pay attention to what that fucker does. The People have their eyes wide open on what he's doing. The people are waking up, it's beautiful.

 

[Vic]

What does that have to do with a bad health care bill?

Your eyes are off the ball, that's what it has to do with this.

 

[Vic]

I can predict the future. This guarantees premium costs go up, they have to. And when people bitch congress' response will be "well if we didn't pass this costs would have been worse!" Nonsense.

And this directly increases my taxes so in addition to premium costs going up, I'll pay more tax on them as well, the cadillac plans.

Yet I don't recall seeing you complain when Bush did the same to healthcare when he got Medicare part D passed. Hmmm...

The funny thing about all this furor over the HC bill is that the bill itself does pretty much nothing. It's not in any way, shape, or form the sweeping reform the lefties wanted and the righties feared, but for some reason, both sides keep acting like it is.

 

[Vic]

quick! Divert! Divert!

Pay no mind to what Obama is saying, pay attention to what that fucker does. The People have their eyes wide open on what he's doing. The people are waking up, it's beautiful.

Bad news, spidey, the HC bill is the diversion, and your so-called 'waking up' is the thing that is putting people to sleep. While you idiots have been obsessing about socialism by way of a health care bill that does more or less nothing, socialism just happened on Wall Street, and yet you don't even know a fucking thing about it. Or apparently even care, for that matter.

 

[charrison]

Your eyes are off the ball, that's what it has to do with this.

There is a lot to keep your eye on right now, but that does not make this bill any better.

 

[Vic]

There is a lot to keep your eye on right now, but that does not make this bill any better.

That's no excuse for making it the ONLY thing you've been keeping your eye on.

As for the bill itself, the Pubs pretty much got everything they wanted on it, short of blocking its passage entirely. There's no public option, the insurance companies and Big Pharma get fat handouts, any attempt to make a more capitalistic system was firmly squashed, and our existing heavily-subsidized fascist get-it-from-your-employer-or-get-fucked healthcare system will continue more or less as it always has, just like the Republicans wanted.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

We are not going to fix the problem by changing who pays for health care costs. As long as there is a 3rd party involved(insurance or govt), the consumer is going to demand more and more "cheap" health care. If you want to bring health care costs under control, you have let consumers know the real costs of care. $20 copays mask the real costs and keep markets from working. This would lower costs for everyone and create winners across the board, rather punishing some and giving freebies to others.

Just allowing insurance to be sold across state lines would be of significant benefit for most at no cost to the govt.

You free market guys just don't get it and I guess you never will. Free market economics will never work with healthcare for one simple reason. A SICK PATIENT HAS NOTHING TO BARGAIN WITH! Price competition means absoluetly nothing when your in jeapordy of dying.
Free market economics is exactly what has ruined insured healthcare in this country, ALL economic forces work against the patient in a free market system. The supply/demand rules that drive free markets just don't work for healthcare.
With a normal commodity when the price gets too high people just stop buying it and the price is forced to drop, with healthcare that is not an option, so instead of the normal peaks and valleys in price appreciation healthcare cost rise constantly. One of the quiding pricipals of economics is that the price of a commodity will always seek out the percieved value of that commodity. With health care the real and percieved value of ones life is priceless so their is no price that is too high.

 

[Vic]

Wow... you gotta be smoking some serious Tyrone Biggums quality crack to think that our existing healthcare system is free market-based. It's anything but.

 

[charrison]

That's no excuse for making it the ONLY thing you've been keeping your eye on.

As for the bill itself, the Pubs pretty much got everything they wanted on it, short of blocking its passage entirely. There's no public option, the insurance companies and Big Pharma get fat handouts, any attempt to make a more capitalistic system was firmly squashed, and our existing heavily-subsidized fascist get-it-from-your-employer-or-get-fucked healthcare system will continue more or less as it always has, just like the Republicans wanted.

The bill is still crap and should be dropped and common sense reforms should be done. Of course you ignore the fact the republicans offered a bill with common sense market reforms and it was voted down on party lines.

There is alot of crap going though DC right now, but this one is one getting all the press.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Wow... you gotta be smoking some serious Tyrone Biggums quality crack to think that our existing healthcare system is free market-based. It's anything but.

The quality of your response is astounding.
I can see why your post count is so high, I guess you value quantity over quality
Tyrone would be proud