HBO's True Detective series discussion thread

[Kev]

It was never said he was satisfied with the outcome. In fact, he even said there were still a lot they didn't get. However, they got the worst of it. They also exposed a large network of what was happening, including releasing the tape. So, the cult can't hide in the shadows. 'Once, it was all darkness. Now, there is some light.' They weren't just talking about the stars. It was a metaphor for the case itself. Rust also is not optimistic, as he was the reason the light appeared.

By satisfied I meant "accepting." They actually didn't expose the network because the news said that Tuttle's connection to it had been dismissed. So they failed in that regard. With how obsessed Rust was with the Tuttles, I can't see how he could possibly think that the "light is winning."

 

[TheAdvocate]

What I find a little frustrating is that most of the clues dropped were McGuffins. The show seemed to have a very complex and interlocking set of clues floating out there, but ultimately none of them led anywhere, and the ending was, if anything, considerably simpler than we had been led to believe.

Spoiler

]In particular, the stuff with Marty's older daughter (the posed dolls, the drawings, her acting out sexually as a teenager, her flinging her sister's tiara into the tree) seemed to suggest that she had in some way been a victim, or at least witness, to the cult's activities. Instead that went nowhere.

While I felt the ending of Breaking Bad was, if anything, too neat, I always admired that show's internal consistency and the way the parts interlocked so tightly. This feels like the opposite of that.

While the daughter stuff may have been a red herring, I wouldn't 100% eliminate the possibility that her and her mother are tied up in the greater Tully web, which may be either the focus of season #2 (with different detectives) or held in reserve for a future revisit. The Tully involvement was scrubbed/successfully disavowed, and as Marty & Rust said, "we didn't get'em all"...

 

[smackababy]

By satisfied I meant "accepting." They actually didn't expose the network because the news said that Tuttle's connection to it had been dismissed. So they failed in that regard. With how obsessed Rust was with the Tuttles, I can't see how he could possibly think that the "light is winning."

The light was winning because before they came along, it was all darkness. Nobody cared to find these missing boys and girls. Nobody knew there was a crazy cult of child molesters and torturers on the lose. Now, however, it has been brought to light. The largest offended has been dealt with and the rest of the sprawl has been put out. Sure, the Tuttle connection might not have held up in court, but that doesn't mean another obsessive detective won't take up the crusade to get justice nor does it not mean that others will no longer simply accept that a young girl vanished.

So, no, it isn't all good and a happy ending. But, it is a start. Especially for Rust, who was pretty much all darkness himself. He now has a little light.

 

[Eug]

I didn't think there was any good reason to think the daughter was involved in any of the cult stuff. She was just acting out and/or exploring her independence (in a very unsafe way) like many rebellious teens do, and in terms of the story line, this was to serve as character development for Hart.

 

[smackababy]

I didn't think there was any good reason to think the daughter was involved in any of the cult stuff. She was just acting out and/or exploring her independence (in a very unsafe way) like many rebellious teens do, and in terms of the story line, this was to serve as character development for Hart.

Except, she was shown to be mentally unstable as an adult AND she drew pictures of sex as a child. Children only know that kind of stuff when they were exposed to it. And the hints given about them were pretty big. There were also some things that never seemed to be really explained. Hart very much did not like the father in law. Why? Could it have been he suspected something more sinister or just a general disliking? Who knows now.

 

[Gunslinger08]

I was pretty disappointed with the ending. They didn't get everyone, basically every clue viewers found were red herrings, and the final logical leap (green ears from painting a building in 1995) was mega-stupid.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Except, she was shown to be mentally unstable as an adult AND she drew pictures of sex as a child. Children only know that kind of stuff when they were exposed to it. And the hints given about them were pretty big. There were also some things that never seemed to be really explained. Hart very much did not like the father in law. Why? Could it have been he suspected something more sinister or just a general disliking? Who knows now.

Plus, as a small kid, she posed those dolls in what appeared to be a gangbang or gang rape (I think this was in the second episode). It was in many ways similar to what appears to have happened on the video they watched in Rust's storage unit. In my view this was too consistent a thread, and too similar to the crimes they were investigating, to be merely a device to show that Marty was out of touch with his family. It appears to have been a red herring, which I found disappointing - there was just nothing surprising or revelatory about the ending.

 

[Wingznut]

the final logical leap (green ears from painting a building in 1995) was mega-stupid.

I can't disagree with you on that one.

 

[Eug]

The kid said she was dared to draw that by the other kids. So, the exposure was at school.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The kid said she was dared to draw that by the other kids. So, the exposure was at school.

If you take her word for that, but that doesn't account for posing the dolls or her later goth/promiscuous behavior and need to be on medication. I'm just saying, it was too consistent a thread, and too similar to the crimes themselves, to be mere background noise. I think it was set up as a deliberate red herring, which is fine but it made the very unsurprising ending more disappointing for me. Overall I liked the show but for me the ending let it down somewhat.

 

[smackababy]

If you take her word for that, but that doesn't account for posing the dolls or her later goth/promiscuous behavior and need to be on medication. I'm just saying, it was too consistent a thread, and too similar to the crimes themselves, to be mere background noise. I think it was set up as a deliberate red herring, which is fine but it made the very unsurprising ending more disappointing for me. Overall I liked the show but for me the ending let it down somewhat.

It seems to me, it was supposed to be surprising that the ending was so mundane, for lack of a better word. I think a lot of the clues that weren't explored might serve as part of the dark they didn't completely eradicate. Perhaps, she had been exposed somewhere to that. Maybe one of the girls she went to school with had been exposed to it and told her. Regardless, some of these people are still out there and may or may not be brought to justice. The show didn't have that "all things were neatly tied up" ending people have come to expect, which is refreshing.

 

[Eug]

If you take her word for that, but that doesn't account for posing the dolls or her later goth/promiscuous behavior and need to be on medication. I'm just saying, it was too consistent a thread, and too similar to the crimes themselves, to be mere background noise. I think it was set up as a deliberate red herring, which is fine but it made the very unsurprising ending more disappointing for me. Overall I liked the show but for me the ending let it down somewhat.

Maybe there was a very minor component of it being set up as a red herring, but I say minor because that IMHO didn't make sense to be part of the main story. I'm very, very glad they didn't involve her, because it would extremely be hard to buy, which is why I thought those trying to link it were trying way, way, way too hard. I don't think his daughter's behaviour was consistent with those crimes at all.

PS. I don't equate "goth" with "promiscuous". She just happened to be both, which is very different from pretty much all the other girls mentioned that were abducted.

 

[zinfamous]

Childress will go down as one of the greatest villains conceived and portrayed in film/television.

I would imagine that a lot of people feel that we should have seen more of him throughout the series, but those people would be wrong. He was great because he was for so long--decades in story time, 8 episodes in series time, that great terrifying unknown. Then, when we finally see him, he is utterly horrible.

Not cheaply portrayed as some cliche'd victim of abuse or torture, but a pathetic soul who was, indeed, a victim of neglect, perversion, whatever environment was around him and some unknown pervasive evil that he was born into. He was better than Bill of Silence of the Lambs, if you ask me.

Getting into his world, only at the end, exploring that vast cavern of his tortured soul with Rust and Marty for the first time, when even Childress suspected it was the end (not the true end, as he certainly believes there is no end in death), was haunting. We get enough sense of terror from what we don't see--the still unknown crimes of the vast cult, the video that shocked and appalled 3 seasoned homicide detectives to their very core, the things that helped to foster the monster within him.

I felt nothing in terms of a letdown. I thought the series came full circle, and thought it was brilliantly played.

 

[smackababy]

Childress will go down as one of the greatest villains conceived and portrayed in film/television.

I would imagine that a lot of people feel that we should have seen more of him throughout the series, but those people would be wrong. He was great because he was for so long--decades in story time, 8 episodes in series time, that great terrifying unknown. Then, when we finally see him, he is utterly horrible.

Not cheaply portrayed as some cliche'd victim of abuse or torture, but a pathetic soul who was, indeed, a victim of neglect, perversion, whatever environment was around him and some unknown pervasive evil that he was born into. He was better than Bill of Silence of the Lambs, if you ask me.

Getting into his world, only at the end, exploring that vast cavern of his tortured soul with Rust and Marty for the first time, when even Childress suspected it was the end (not the true end, as he certainly believes there is no end in death), was haunting. We get enough sense of terror from what we don't see--the still unknown crimes of the vast cult, the video that shocked and appalled 3 seasoned homicide detectives to their very core, the things that helped to foster the monster within him.

I felt nothing in terms of a letdown. I thought the series came full circle, and thought it was brilliantly played.

I agree, he was a great villain. He had a sick perversion about him, even in his 'normal' activities. What he made the girl living with him tell him during their 'sex' scene was incredibly despicable and really painted just how sick he was. His mannerisms were portrayed perfectly and his descent through Carcosa monologue was haunting.

 

[zinfamous]

What I find a little frustrating is that most of the clues dropped were McGuffins. The show seemed to have a very complex and interlocking set of clues floating out there, but ultimately none of them led anywhere, and the ending was, if anything, considerably simpler than we had been led to believe.

Spoiler

]In particular, the stuff with Marty's older daughter (the posed dolls, the drawings, her acting out sexually as a teenager, her flinging her sister's tiara into the tree) seemed to suggest that she had in some way been a victim, or at least witness, to the cult's activities. Instead that went nowhere.

While I felt the ending of Breaking Bad was, if anything, too neat, I always admired that show's internal consistency and the way the parts interlocked so tightly. This feels like the opposite of that.

Again, I don't see why those images should have been construed as real clues. To me, they were the types of things that a father with Marty's job deals with--kids at that age, acting out in response to the world that they are exposed to, the types of neglect that result from not only Marty's attention to his job, but also his philandering (which was the only real interpretation of his older daughter's sexual activities).

The rest, such as the tiara in the tree, Jungian archetypes, or just more of the general symbolism that may or not be loose foreshadows of that great and hidden evil that has been surrounding them this entire time.

It's easy to read a lot into a show that seems bound and determined to throw hints and clues in every frame (though much of that conjecture is the result of fans likely enforcing meaning where it was never intended to be), but oftentimes, images are just images. They are there simply because they "look nice."

 

[zinfamous]

I agree, he was a great villain. He had a sick perversion about him, even in his 'normal' activities. What he made the girl living with him tell him during their 'sex' scene was incredibly despicable and really painted just how sick he was. His mannerisms were portrayed perfectly and his descent through Carcosa monologue was haunting.

Even more terrifying when you realize that the woman who wanted "to make flowers" was his sister.

Imagine them as two kids more or less abandoned at an early age growing up together, creating whatever meaning from life that they can, largely formulated by pre-pubescent minds.

That scene is one of the creepiest that I can recall.

 

[zinfamous]

No see, those "clues" were only construed that way because viewers now are always looking for every little detail because they expect twists in every part of a show. It would be just asinine if the daughter had been a victim, it would be so forced. It was simply showing how Marty was losing control and connection with his family.

exactly. people are let when things aren't as complex or shocking as they think they want them to be--simply because they have largely been the victims of poorly-written content.

True Detective is real, honest, soul-crushing horror.

Anything that you see in the theaters over the last decades or so, maybe called Saw, or Paranormal whatever, none of that is horror. It's just meaningless bullshit for idiots.

 

[smackababy]

Again, I don't see why those images should have been construed as real clues. To me, they were the types of things that a father with Marty's job deals with--kids at that age, acting out in response to the world that they are exposed to, the types of neglect that result from not only Marty's attention to his job, but also his philandering (which was the only real interpretation of his older daughter's sexual activities).

The rest, such as the tiara in the tree, Jungian archetypes, or just more of the general symbolism that may or not be loose foreshadows of that great and hidden evil that has been surrounding them this entire time.

It's easy to read a lot into a show that seems bound and determined to throw hints and clues in every frame (though much of that conjecture is the result of fans likely enforcing meaning where it was never intended to be), but oftentimes, images are just images. They are there simply because they "look nice."

I think a lot of what was shown had a purpose. The writers intentionally led you come to a conclusion they wanted, similar to what the detectives suggested Rust had done with Marty. And, that conclusion was wrong. They allowed the fans to run wild with their theories on who the Yellow King was and what connection anyone had with the case. It was brilliant to leave so many loose ends, and to even leave them up to interpretation if they were, in fact, loose ends. What clues are important, meaningful and what aren't is also a big part of being a detective. Since, this pays homage to the true crime genre, why would it be assumed they didn't intentionally lead the viewers to false conclusions?

 

[Gunslinger08]

exactly. people are let when things aren't as complex or shocking as they think they want them to be--simply because they have largely been the victims of poorly-written content.

True Detective is real, honest, soul-crushing horror.

Anything that you see in the theaters over the last decades or so, maybe called Saw, or Paranormal whatever, none of that is horror. It's just meaningless bullshit for idiots.

Do you deny that the final logical leap (green ears = paint from a random house he photographed in 1995) was pretty stupid? The final episode, especially that part, felt rushed to me.

 

[smackababy]

Do you deny that the final logical leap (green ears = paint from a random house he photographed in 1995) was pretty stupid? The final episode, especially that part, felt rushed to me.

I wasn't really that put off by this. They had combed over the files hundreds of times and finally, for whatever reason, something connected the houses in Marty's brain. That happens all the time. I've had it happen where I've read something I didn't quite understand (regarding some programming concept) and years later I would be trying to solve a problem and something just clicks into place. I realize I knew the answer, I just didn't know it was at the time. It was almost dumb luck they figured it out. And, as someone who has painted houses 'professionally', you get paint everywhere (even your ears).


I think the real gems of this show where the writing and the cinematography. It was shot so exceptionally well.

 

[zinfamous]

By satisfied I meant "accepting." They actually didn't expose the network because the news said that Tuttle's connection to it had been dismissed. So they failed in that regard. With how obsessed Rust was with the Tuttles, I can't see how he could possibly think that the "light is winning."

It was dismissed by the Tuttle's and the state--of course, the state was also known to be a part of the cult and the coverup. It's maybe a week or so when that report is shown on TV--of course the guilty parties are in denial of being accused.

We don't really see much of the news by the final scene, probably a month or so later, when they do leave the hospital.

What the audience knows is that the guilty parties have been largely exposed and the appropriate people have most of the evidence that is needed. Much more needs to be known, of course, and it will take time to truly bring down such a massive conspiracy, but I think there is satisfaction that real justice will be done.

I'm not sure if the new season will work in the peripheries of this conspiracy--as it seems to be the entirety of LA so it would be hard to retain that setting without addressing it, or completely unrelated (another part of the country/world, perhaps?), but I can see them bringing in the new characters as some part of the fallout from this exposure.

 

[Childs]

What I find a little frustrating is that most of the clues dropped were McGuffins. The show seemed to have a very complex and interlocking set of clues floating out there, but ultimately none of them led anywhere, and the ending was, if anything, considerably simpler than we had been led to believe.

Spoiler

]In particular, the stuff with Marty's older daughter (the posed dolls, the drawings, her acting out sexually as a teenager, her flinging her sister's tiara into the tree) seemed to suggest that she had in some way been a victim, or at least witness, to the cult's activities. Instead that went nowhere.

While I felt the ending of Breaking Bad was, if anything, too neat, I always admired that show's internal consistency and the way the parts interlocked so tightly. This feels like the opposite of that.

I thought the stuff going on with his daughter was a reflection of Marty as a father and husband. It was a common theme throughout the show that he didnt look what was in front of him. The only thing I think was out of left field was the green ears clue. Maybe if when they showed Errol painting at the school he had paint all over his face it would have made sense, but they would have needed to show that much earlier than they did since at that point we knew he was the villain.

In some ways this was like a JJ Abrams show. Characters were focus, rather than the mechanics of solving the puzzle. Kinda frustrating when you think its something that can be logically deduced, but it was still a good show. The second time I saw Errol I knew he was the villain, as the weirdo shows up more than once is detective show 101 kinda stuff, but that wasnt until the second to the last episode.

Maybe it was just too simple...I think the first time they showed him at a school he said he had maintenance contracts with the church group and worked up and down the coast. I remember thinking he was a peculiar character, but he never showed up again and just forgot about him. But if you remembered him the clues might have pointed to him as the story progressed. It feels like everything was just wrapped up in eps 7 and 8. I would need to watch it again.

 

[zinfamous]

Do you deny that the final logical leap (green ears = paint from a random house he photographed in 1995) was pretty stupid? The final episode, especially that part, felt rushed to me.

no not really. Their work consists of examining the same documents over and over and over and over again, finding any seemingly inconsequential bit of evidence that might prove to be meaningful.

They've been over every piece already, so at that point in the case they have a mental picture of all the evidence at their disposal. Trying to figure out what green ears would mean, Rust suggested leaves in his head. Maybe? Maybe not? the mind wonders, brainstorms.

well, all these guys have tattoos. maybe war paint? paint? Hart knew he had seen photos of a particular house, one they had visited before, and he knew the time period they were considering--1995. It was a quick hunch that paid off.

 

[smackababy]

It was dismissed by the Tuttle's and the state--of course, the state was also known to be a part of the cult and the coverup. It's maybe a week or so when that report is shown on TV--of course the guilty parties are in denial of being accused.

We don't really see much of the news by the final scene, probably a month or so later, when they do leave the hospital.

What the audience knows is that the guilty parties have been largely exposed and the appropriate people have most of the evidence that is needed. Much more needs to be known, of course, and it will take time to truly bring down such a massive conspiracy, but I think there is satisfaction that real justice will be done.

I'm not sure if the new season will work in the peripheries of this conspiracy--as it seems to be the entirety of LA so it would be hard to retain that setting without addressing it, or completely unrelated (another part of the country/world, perhaps?), but I can see them bringing in the new characters as some part of the fallout from this exposure.

I really hope it is another set of detectives in another part of the country. This story has come to a satisfactory conclusion (the two detectives have done all they can, and left it in the hands of those willing to continue).

I hope they keep it more rural though. Inner city dramas are never as good and you can't really suspend belief that thousands of cops are in on a cover up or that one cop was able to be so sneaky. LA was perfect because a natural disaster had occurred and a lot of it was surrounding small town, good ol' boys sheriffs. You can't have that in LA or NYC.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I disagree. He's a very forgettable villain, at best. He wasn't really even the villain through the series. Not when there's a conspiracy of coverups coming from as high as the state senate and stretching back as far as the 1940s. Not when there's an entire cult of Satan worshipers killing women and children, and who's highest ranking member may have been a prominent Christian Evangelist. Did everyone suddenly forget that this was what the story was about through most of the series? All it took was a teenage-horror-movie ending.

In retrospect, I honestly think the writers got about 3/4 of the way through writing the plot to the series before they decided this was how it would end. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it. The little news footage bit of digging up bodies in the front yard was probably the last thing written into the script. This series wasn't about a maniacal serial killer until it was neatly wrapped up as such in the last episode.

They took a potentially great story and turned it into a bad season of Dexter.