HBO's True Detective series discussion thread

[zinfamous]

If you take her word for that, but that doesn't account for posing the dolls or her later goth/promiscuous behavior and need to be on medication. I'm just saying, it was too consistent a thread, and too similar to the crimes themselves, to be mere background noise. I think it was set up as a deliberate red herring, which is fine but it made the very unsurprising ending more disappointing for me. Overall I liked the show but for me the ending let it down somewhat.

No teenager in the history of the last several decades has ever gone through a goth phase, loose sexual behavior, and been heavily medicated without being exposed to a twisted pagan Bayou child sacrifice cult?

That would be news to me. Plenty of things can account for that--a busy father neglecting his daughters, the daughters being exposed to his own philandering, being exposed to this news as the case is happening.

I think the show is a lot simpler than people want it to be. What we have is a very real evil that has been hiding just under the surface; close enough to any random person and wide enough that nearly everyone in the state would likely have been exposed to it in some way. Rust tells us that we are simply sentient fleshbags (Hart: "oh, and what's a scented fleshbag? ); we do what we must to live in this hell called life and if we feel the darkness, even without seeing it, we either fool ourselves that it isn't there or we allow ourselves to get swallowed up by it.

The story really is pretty simple, and everyone is expected to be the fool for not seeing such a wide-arching crime. That doesn't mean that everyone is part of it.

 

[zinfamous]

I disagree. He's a very forgettable villain, at best. He wasn't really even the villain through the series. Not when there's a conspiracy of coverups coming from as high as the state senate and stretching back as far as the 1940s. Not when there's an entire cult of Satan worshipers killing women and children, and who's highest ranking member may have been a prominent Christian Evangelist. Did everyone suddenly forget that this was what the story was about through most of the series? All it took was a teenage-horror-movie ending.

In retrospect, I honestly think the writers got about 3/4 of the way through writing the plot to the series before they decided this was how it would end. In fact, I'm pretty certain of it. The little news footage bit of digging up bodies in the front yard was probably the last thing written into the script. This series wasn't about a maniacal serial killer until it was neatly wrapped up as such in the last episode.

They took a potentially great story and turned it into a bad season of Dexter.

I think you let your mind run wild with assumptions that were never given, and so were let down when these assumptions were not fulfilled.

The exposure was there--this ring of a cult has been exposed with all of the available evidence. They were always after one killer the entire time, and Cohl certainly wasn't satisfied with how things ended in 2002. For all we were ever shown, Childress was the primary individual responsible--the assumed "leaders" of the cult, or at least conspirators in the coverup; Tuttle, Sheriff Childress, were already dead (hey, we even saw daddy Childress' mummified corpse being lovingly tended-to by Errol).

The honesty and success of this show is that we were brought into a story about a creepy serial killer, and we got that serial killer. All the evidence collected by Cohl points to Errol Childress being the primary force behind the actual killing over the previous several decades--He WAS the leader. He was the Yellow King that created this myth of transference that, even if the cult existed before his reign, it certainly became his.

You may have missed the mummified bodies impaled on his wooden sculptures throughout Carcosa--perhaps his offerings to achieve his grand transference into the next state.

In the end, I suggest watching it again. I submit that those that felt letdown missed a lot of the dialogue or imagery in the final episode, or for the most part, wanted far more meaning and complexity than was ever offered. :\

 

[Carson Dyle]

Not let down. Just not so easily placated by a comic book ending when the story was originally so much more. I think the writers painted themselves into a corner that they eventually realized they couldn't possibly wrap up completely in eight episodes. So they gave us a boogeyman and it's a perfect ending for those who believe in boogeymen.

 

[zinfamous]

Again, the story was never as much as you think it was.

watch again.

Also True Crime is a very popular genre, and it is almost always about boogeymen. True Crime is based on....true crime.

This suggests that boogeymen are real, doesn't it?

 

[Childs]

Not let down. Just not so easily placated by a comic book ending when the story was originally so much more. I think the writers painted themselves into a corner that they eventually realized they couldn't possibly wrap up completely in eight episodes. So they gave us a boogeyman and it's a perfect ending for those who believe in boogeymen.

BTW, great forum name. Charade doesnt get the love it should.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Who killed Billy Lee Tuttle?

 

[zinfamous]

Who killed Billy Lee Tuttle?

The old man Tuttle?

official word was suicide--but Cohl suspected that if it wasn't that (Still could have been), it was his other peeps in the cult that feared the loss of that video tape.

I suspect the pre-mummified Sheriff Childress, who was shown to go well out of his way to protect the shenanigans of the cult, as well as the existence of his son.

 

[smackababy]

Not let down. Just not so easily placated by a comic book ending when the story was originally so much more. I think the writers painted themselves into a corner that they eventually realized they couldn't possibly wrap up completely in eight episodes. So they gave us a boogeyman and it's a perfect ending for those who believe in boogeymen.

How did they paint themselves into a corner when the entire investigation was that of a serial killer? The very first episode opens the idea that someone had ritualistically killed Dora Lange and it was very unlikely it was his first. They started looking deeper and it suggested a cover up, but not that other people were involved in the murders. Child molestation? Sure. But, abduction and murder? Not once was anyone else connected outside of Childress, who happened to be related to the murderer! Also, if you don't believe in boogeymen, you must live in some utopia. They exist, and they are just as dark and depraved as Errol.

Who killed Billy Lee Tuttle?

Who knows? Could have easily been Rust. Could have easily been some who knew about the child molestation ring. Could have been Errol, although, he doesn't seem like the type to accidentally OD someone.

And again, the fact that so many questions remain shows that it was just some neat clean up. There are still plenty of loose ends, and the characters even acknowledge such. The entire series is literally summed up in the last lines. It used to be all darkness; the light has surfaced and is multiplying.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm getting a No Country for Old Men type of vibe from True Detective.

meaning--after first watching that in the theater, I felt it was good, but in many ways, also unremarkable. After watching it a 2nd, 3rd, and any subsequent times, it became more brilliant for me.

I think I will binge watch TD pretty soon, and I bet it will come out as all the more brilliant. I've already seen two of the episodes twice, and enjoyed them quite a bit more on 2nd viewings (6 and 7)

 

[Kev]

The old man Tuttle?

official word was suicide--but Cohl suspected that if it wasn't that (Still could have been), it was his other peeps in the cult that feared the loss of that video tape.

I suspect the pre-mummified Sheriff Childress, who was shown to go well out of his way to protect the shenanigans of the cult, as well as the existence of his son.

These are the types of things we would have preferred to be included in the ending. Speculation is ok, but to a point. If you make your audience speculate on so much, you've failed in your storytelling.

 

[Kev]

I'm getting a No Country for Old Men type of vibe from True Detective.

meaning--after first watching that in the theater, I felt it was good, but in many ways, also unremarkable. After watching it a 2nd, 3rd, and any subsequent times, it became more brilliant for me.

I think I will binge watch TD pretty soon, and I bet it will come out as all the more brilliant. I've already seen two of the episodes twice, and enjoyed them quite a bit more on 2nd viewings (6 and 7)

I've watched each episode 3 times except for the finale. I don't know if I'm compelled to rewatch the finale.

I did rewatch that last line by Cohle 3 times though. Because when I first heard it I couldn't actually understand the words he said. The second time I understood what he said and was like "what the fuck, are you kidding?" The third time I just sighed.

 

[Kev]

I really thought in they were going with the whole "time is a flat circle theme in the end" -- with how they kept cutting between Ledoux and Childress's houses and the scene of the murder. They were basically saying visually that all this has happened before, and will happen again. The detectives really didn't put a stop to anything when you look at the big picture ("from a 4th dimensional perspective"). I thought if the final scene was based on that theme it would have been a lot more haunting and consistent with the rest of the show, and a much more fitting ending.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Not once was anyone else connected outside of Childress, who happened to be related to the murderer!

Outside of the videotape showing multiple men at the ceremony doing god know what to Marie Fontenot? Outside of the tape and photos being found in Billy Lee Tuttle's safe? Outside of Reggie Ledoux and his partner DeWall, who held the two kids captives in 1995?

 

[Eug]

exactly. people are let when things aren't as complex or shocking as they think they want them to be--simply because they have largely been the victims of poorly-written content.

True Detective is real, honest, soul-crushing horror.

Anything that you see in the theaters over the last decades or so, maybe called Saw, or Paranormal whatever, none of that is horror. It's just meaningless bullshit for idiots.

I like the show Supernatural, but most of it is just fantasy, with poor CG goblins and what not, and lots of jokes.

However, one episode early on in the series really creeped me out.

It's rather telling that that episode was the only one that didn't have anything supernatural in it. The perpetrators were just sick humans.

sentient fleshbags (Hart: "oh, and what's a scented fleshbag? )

sentient meat

 

[smackababy]

Outside of the videotape showing multiple men at the ceremony doing god know what to Marie Fontenot? Outside of the tape and photos being found in Billy Lee Tuttle's safe? Outside of Reggie Ledoux and his partner DeWall, who held the two kids captives in 1995?

Ledoux and DeWall, yes, and it was said Errol was there. The video tape showed a molestation ring, as far as we know. What happened afterwards? No body was recovered. Tuttle wasn't connected to the murders, as far as we know. He had a set up that allowed child molestation, and possibly, Errol was one of the boys that was a part of that growing up. Tuttle may have very well created the monster that was Errol, using the old voodoo masks to impart upon him some grander fantasy. Errol then constructed his Yellow King and did the murders.

We can't connect Tuttle to anything outside of the child molestation. And, if you notice, Errol didn't exactly seem to have it all together.

 

[zinfamous]

I've watched each episode 3 times except for the finale. I don't know if I'm compelled to rewatch the finale.

I did rewatch that last line by Cohle 3 times though. Because when I first heard it I couldn't actually understand the words he said. The second time I understood what he said and was like "what the fuck, are you kidding?" The third time I just sighed.

I think a lot of the people that are letdown because it wasn't as dark an ending as they hoped--I guess meaning either Cohl or Rust died? aren't really noticing how dark the ending was?

The idea is that this darkness is there, is always around us, and always will be. There is a bit of hope, maybe things will get better, but we really don't know if that ever will happen. The evidence is out there but we know that since all levels of government and law enforcement are involved, we probably can't expect real justice.

We know some of the bad people have been punished: Ledauex is dead, Tuttle is dead, the two Childresses are dead, but we don't know, for sure, how Tuttle died and if there are others just as responsible that will ever see justice. We do know, however, that the principles of the investigation have all been dealt with. While that is something that I think sees adequate closure, the real darkness still exists. Maybe it isn't as bad as it was before, but it will always be there.

I like that the investigation remains open and in many ways, unresolved. I feel there was nothing rushed about Errol Childress, because we have long been lead to believe, since the first episode (knowing that this is still happening in present day), that the real culprit is still out there. It shouldn't be surprising that when they find the real culprit, then, that all of the bodies, all of the evidence, the other suspects (Sheriff Childress) appear on the premises.

 

[pyonir]

After reading the last couple days' worth of posts, my thought is that many of you are looking to the cult, Childress and Tuttle as the main storyline. Focusing on their crimes and their future.

IMO, the show was about Marty and Rust. It's called "True Detectives". The entire 8 episodes was ultimately about them, not the crimes, victims or perpetrators. It was a character study of two men, their personal outlooks on life, tolerance of each other at first, hatred later, and then ultimately about a close friendship at the end. They didn't like each other when they had to work together. After Rust slept with Marty's wife, it was hatred. And at the end Marty is letting Rust stay with him and basically carrying him to the car; true friendship.

It also showed the change in the character of Rust...from someone hell bent on killing himself somehow and not feeling anything. He was going to die after he finished his unfinished business of the case. Then he had a vision/feeling of his daughter and his outlook changed. As zinfamous said earlier, light crept into his darkness.

I think one of the beautiful things about shows like this is it allows everyone to take something different away from it. That's what I took away from it.

 

[Drako]

sentient meat

What's scented meat?

 

[Eug]

Dunno, but here's some meated scent:

 

[Drako]

The dreaded happy ending comment that I made earlier is pretty much true. There is so much hate on the internet for the supposed "clean" ending. I applaud the search for the light, most search for dark apparently.

 

[Printer Bandit]

salient wheat

 

[Drako]

Smelly feet

 

[IAteYourMother]

Not let down. Just not so easily placated by a comic book ending when the story was originally so much more. I think the writers painted themselves into a corner that they eventually realized they couldn't possibly wrap up completely in eight episodes. So they gave us a boogeyman and it's a perfect ending for those who believe in boogeymen.

I'm pretty sure the entire thing was written before it was shot

 

[Wingznut]

A few people are saying that one of their complaints is that Marty and Rust only got one of the bad guys, and not the entire cult.

Had they gotten everybody, I'm sure even more people would be complaining that it all wrapped up too neatly. And I'd probably be one of those people.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Like I said, by where the story had progressed through the first six or seven episodes, that wasn't going to happen by the end of episode eight.