Atif
Platinum Member
- Oct 10, 2001
- 2,423
- 11
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Actually it does not. You are doing the exact thing that I have been discussing with some members in private (i.e. taking a quote and mishmashing it for another purpose). My post above (and the quote from the Qur'an therein) refers to those who have not accepted Islam. There is no compulsion or forced conversion in Islam of non-Muslims.
Random question: what's the punishment for treason in the U.S. Army?
You are discussing specifics relating to treason/apostasy (Riddah) that apply to those in an Islamic State (of which I believe none exist today). If one claims to have accepted Islam, and then, having lived as a Muslim, turns around and says 'oh, I think I'm tired of this' they will NOT be killed immediately. In an Islamic State, such a person will first be counseled to ensure their sanity, the state under which they accepted Islam, etc. If it is established that a person accepted Islam with the express intention of switching back to another faith (i.e. a man wants to divorce his wife, but this is not allowed in his faith, so he "becomes Muslim") such behavior calls for discipline. In its most severe form, the punishment for apostasy is, as you pointed out, death. The religion of God is not a jacket, to be changed on a whim, and therefore, to ensure that individuals do not make a game of entering a faith, in an Islamic State, there is a check that can be used to curb such behavior.
On an aside, apostasy is a serious matter in Christianity (and I'm sure, Judaism) as well
Peace
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
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actually now what you are saying is that it is considered mental illness to not fall mental lockstep with the muslim oppressors. you can squirm and be an apologist all you want, it doesn't make the ideology any less absurd. the fundamental issue is that islam doesn't allow for freedom of thought. you don't have to kill everyone, only enough to keep the rest in line. such is the kindness of thought police. no matter how you spin it, it is a poisonous mentality to be carrying around.
and don't even compare it to the us army. you CAN leave the us army, and you CAN speak out against it as many have once you have left. you can think ill thoughts write books and whatever you feel like, its called freedom of speech. don't confuse freedom of thought with freedom to kill which would be treason and is a much different thing.
and don't even compare it to the us army. you CAN leave the us army, and you CAN speak out against it as many have once you have left. you can think ill thoughts write books and whatever you feel like, its called freedom of speech. don't confuse freedom of thought with freedom to kill which would be treason and is a much different thing.
Well it sounds very wonderful in Arabic as you should know
And I would hope those people, at the same time - mainly study and learn from their translation as well paraphrase from different books!
Where arabic is interesting is when it comes to picking up further understanding...as any language should English lacks the "2-man" tense, whereas Arabic has that. From an arabic reading its fairly easy to understand that in the Garden of Eden BOTH adam and eve sinned and god forgave them TWO both.
That and ultimately - any dispute or confusion on language translation is made easy if you have the arabic to date back
but like you said - its quaint to see people read it and not have a clue as to what it means. But at the same time I think it is mainly because it sounds very nice~
Yeah...the thing is...its not. It doesn't say that. Out of curiosity think about from WHERE all the information you have learned about Islam comes from...That would be an interesting question to see - especially since you seem to be convinced I need ot kill you
then why the hell can't you give Muslims the same thing!
Yes. Well no -but yes. To be frank - a lot of what we see today (Bin Laden , crazy Clerics, etc. etc.) is very integrated in politics. Muslims, within the Quran, are allowed to defend themselves. Much of what we see today is rationalized under that. Even in war there are "rules and regulations". You can't attach non combatants, women children etc. But look at a situation like Israel: they came and took the Palestinian land. The settlers themselves have stolen the land of those who lived there (and i'm not talking about legal Jewish purchases of Land - lets be serious in this). Some Clerics believe that even"civilians" are no longer civilians because the method of opression IS taking the land and IS occupation, so these people are now valid targets (and hence - suicide bombings). Can you really look at something like Israel without understanding the political point of view? Oh hellll no. Its a lot of politics, and religion at the same time.
Quran doesn't mandate stoning. It doesn't mandate death for Apostasy. You really are reaching for straws here
Actually she was 17 or 18 IIRC when he died. And even long after Prophet Mohammad died- althoughshe served as an invaluable source of information on matters because she lived with him and got first hand experience. Relevance to this thread? none
then stop pretending the quran mandates death for apostasy. put out the verses right now please that says "kill ex- muslims for leaving the religion". I'll be waiting for you darling~
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
the notion is hardly foreign to islam. that such a horrible notion is even debatable shows how poisonous this ideology is. theres no use debating it, it all comes down to the fundamental assumption which is that this is a work of god and is perfect, that it is so corrupt shows this to be false. nothing further is required. the foundation is a lie, nothing can be built on it of substance.
"The very notion of apostasy has vanished from the West where one would talk of being a lapsed Catholic or non-practicing Christian rather than an apostate. There are certainly no penal sanctions for converting from Christianity to any other religion. In Islamic countries, on the other hand, the issue is far from dead.
The Arabic word for apostate is murtadd, the one who turns back from Islam, and apostasy is denoted by irtidad and ridda. Ridda seems to have been used for apostasy from Islam into unbelief ( in Arabic, kufr ), and irtidad from Islam to some other religion. A person born of Muslim parents who later rejects Islam is called a Murtadd Fitri - fitri meaning natural, it can also mean instinctive, native, inborn, innate. One who converts to Islam and subsequently leaves it is a Murtadd Milli, from milla meaning religious community .The Murtadd Fitri can be seen as someone unnatural, subverting the natural course of things whose apostasy is a willful and obstinate act of treason against God and the one and only true creed, and a betrayal and desertion of the community. The Murtadd Milli is a traitor to the Muslim community, and equally disruptive.
Any verbal denial of any principle of Muslim belief is considered apostasy. If one declares, for example, that the universe has always existed from eternity or that God has a material substance, then one is an apostate. If one denies the unity of God or confesses to a belief in reincarnation, one is guilty of apostasy. Certain acts are also deemed acts of apostasy, for example treating a copy of the Koran disrespectfully, by burning it or even soiling it in some way. Some doctors of Islamic law claim that a Muslim becomes an apostate if he or she enters a church, worships an idol, or learns and practises magic. A Muslim becomes an apostate if he defames the Prophet?s character, morals or virtues, and denies Muhammad?s prophethood and that he was the seal of the prophets.
KORAN
It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars, and we shall return to the textual evidence for it. Some modern scholars have argued that in the Koran the apostate is threatened with punishment only in the next world, as for example at XVI.106, ?Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief ?save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.? Similarly in III.90-91, ?Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief, their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray. Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul).Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.?
However, Sura II.217 is interpreted by no less an authority than al-Shafi?i(died 820 C.E.), the founder of one of the four orthodox schools of law of Sunni Islam to mean that the death penalty should be prescribed for apostates. Sura II.217 reads: ?? But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever , his works shall come to nothing in this world and the next, and they are the companions of the fire for ever.? Al-Thalabi and al -Khazan concur. Al-Razi in his commentary on II:217 says the apostate should be killed.
Similarly, IV. 89: ?They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all like alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they desert you seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them?? Baydawi (died c. 1315-16), in his celebrated commentary on the Koran, interprets this passage to mean: ?Whosover turns back from his belief ( irtada ), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard?. Ibn Kathir in his commentary on this passage quoting Al Suddi (died 745) says that since the unbelievers had manifested their unbelief they should be killed.
Abul Ala Mawdudi [1903-1979], the founder of the Jamat-i Islami, is perhaps the most influential Muslim thinker of the 20th century, being responsible for the Islamic resurgence in modern times. He called for a return to the Koran and a purified sunna as a way to revive and revitalise Islam. In his book on apostasy in Islam, Mawdudi argued that even the Koran prescribes the death penalty for all apostates. He points to sura IX for evidence:".........
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhim...ch/archives/001590.php
Well, I was thinking of reading the Qu'ran.. but then I remembered that sometimes I get bored and bring books to the bathroom. One time, I took the bible into the bathroom while I was "dropping off the kids".
I'm afraid if I started reading the Qu'ran, I might bring it to the bathroom.. Who knows? Being clumsy, I might accidentally drop it into the toilet and have some muslim come out under the sink and behead me.. so no, I have not read the Qu'ran.
I'm afraid if I started reading the Qu'ran, I might bring it to the bathroom.. Who knows? Being clumsy, I might accidentally drop it into the toilet and have some muslim come out under the sink and behead me.. so no, I have not read the Qu'ran.
-0oor0roo-
I don't want to go into a long winded discussion (I've posted a detailed example on P&N...would try to recover it if the search didn't suck) but let me just focus on what the QURAN says
To make it more interesting, let us use the Surahs you quoted directly:
the first
016.106
YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
ASAD: As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but [only to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth : - upon all such [falls] God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them.
And actually if we want to be fair we should include the whole chunk - but lets just use what you quoted
Where does it say to kill the apostate? From this using a plain simple reading:
a) Force apostasy does not count as a transgression in God's view
b) God does not love the apostate
c) The apostate will receive's GOD'S CONDEMNATION and will AWAIT SUFFERING from the day of judgement. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran that humans must carry out death for this.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
------------------------------------
the second
003.091
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.
SHAKIR: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.
ASAD: Verily, as for those who are bent on denying the truth after having attained to faith, and then grow [ever more stubborn] in their refusal to acknowledge the truth, their repentance [of other sins] shall not be accepted: for it is they who have truly gone astray
Let us lok at this:
a) This specific Surah talks about those who die rejecting faith after they have attained it
b) When they die - God will penalize them.
As far as looking at all three translations, In the Quran: only God can accept the repentence of sins, ONLY God can legislate any suffering after death (hence the idea of a proscribed punishment AFTER death...unless you want to prove humans can)
NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING says to kill the apostate.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
the third
this one is awesome because you [or I should say - Jihad watch. Awesome source for accurate information about the Quran!!! *sarcasm detector breaks*] don't even quote the whole passage! I personally hate quoting ANYTHING out of context, but let us just accept this "quote of part of a aya" where even the aya is needed within its context to understand
*NOTE THIS IS ONLY A PORTION OF THE AYAH*
002.217
YUSUFALI: And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
PICKTHAL: And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
SHAKIR: And whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
ASAD: But if any of you should turn away from his faith and die as a denier of the truth - these it is whose works will go for nought in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.
What can we see? If one apostates - you will spend time in Hell. Even actions in life will not help you escape time in Hell.
Nothing about ordering the death of apostates.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
the fourth
this is an interesting one, and we NEED the full context to appreciate what is being said! So I must break with the scary notion of bringing in individual quotes...I initially realized this only after reading the full thing.
004.083
YUSUFALI: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.
PICKTHAL: And if any tidings, whether of safety or fear, come unto them, they noise it abroad, whereas if they had referred it to the messenger and to such of them as are in authority, those among them who are able to think out the matter would have known it. If it had not been for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy ye would have followed Satan, save a few (of you).
SHAKIR: And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers. Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
===========================================
* translation alert - translation alert for 004.084 *
One HUGE IMPORTANT PEICE OF INFORMATION is the following:
Let us look at the Arabic translittereated (the follwing taken from Asad - thank you sir!):
Faqatil fi sabilil-lahi la tukallafu illa nafsak. Wa harridil-mu minina asal~lahu any~yakuffa ba'sal~ladhina karafu; wal~lahu ashaddu basanw-wa ashaddu tankila
"Although primarly addressed to the Prophet, the "thou" in this sentence relates to every believer. The above exhoratation is to be understood in the context of a war already in progress, AND NOT AS AN INCITEMENT TO WAR"
You sure as hell won't get that if you had only a translation to rely on....another reason why it is always STRONGLY reccomended to have the original arabic there. A non arabic speaker will still not notice that (hopefully there is also paraphrasing) but the actual words will be there no matter what.
============================================
004.085
YUSUFALI: Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Whoso interveneth in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah overseeth all things.
SHAKIR: Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things.
004.086
YUSUFALI: When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
PICKTHAL: When ye are greeted with a greeting, greet ye with a better than it or return it. Lo! Allah taketh count of all things.
SHAKIR: And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
004.087
YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no Allah save Him. He gathereth you all unto a Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Who is more true in statement than Allah?
SHAKIR: Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?
004.088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
004.089 - the actual disputed quote!!!
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
ASAD: How tThey would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Dop not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to open enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succuor.
004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
In case you are not sure what enmity means:
So let us get this straight and use some internet lingo:
***
-If you are in the middle of a war - you should pwn them.
-If you they become hostile - you should pwn them.
-If they offer you peace or want to cease war - you have absolutely NO RIGHT to pwn them. Stop the pwnage.
***
Again - where is there a decleration to kill an unbeliever for being an unbeliever?
There isn't - because God ultimately deals with the apostate...not humans. And this message is clearly seen in the Quran and is most simply, and plainly embodied in this Ayah:
2:256
THERE SHALL BE NO COERCION IN MATTERS OF FAITH. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of ebil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God i all hearing, all knowing.
edit:
to make it clear who I was speaking to
edit2:
thanks to USC-MSA Quran archives for three translations next to eachother, as well as the translation of the Quran by Muhammad Asad(an Ashkenazi)
I don't want to go into a long winded discussion (I've posted a detailed example on P&N...would try to recover it if the search didn't suck) but let me just focus on what the QURAN says
To make it more interesting, let us use the Surahs you quoted directly:
the first
016.106
YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
ASAD: As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but [only to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth : - upon all such [falls] God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them.
And actually if we want to be fair we should include the whole chunk - but lets just use what you quoted
Where does it say to kill the apostate? From this using a plain simple reading:
a) Force apostasy does not count as a transgression in God's view
b) God does not love the apostate
c) The apostate will receive's GOD'S CONDEMNATION and will AWAIT SUFFERING from the day of judgement. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran that humans must carry out death for this.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
------------------------------------
the second
003.091
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.
SHAKIR: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.
ASAD: Verily, as for those who are bent on denying the truth after having attained to faith, and then grow [ever more stubborn] in their refusal to acknowledge the truth, their repentance [of other sins] shall not be accepted: for it is they who have truly gone astray
Let us lok at this:
a) This specific Surah talks about those who die rejecting faith after they have attained it
b) When they die - God will penalize them.
As far as looking at all three translations, In the Quran: only God can accept the repentence of sins, ONLY God can legislate any suffering after death (hence the idea of a proscribed punishment AFTER death...unless you want to prove humans can)
NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING says to kill the apostate.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
the third
this one is awesome because you [or I should say - Jihad watch. Awesome source for accurate information about the Quran!!! *sarcasm detector breaks*] don't even quote the whole passage! I personally hate quoting ANYTHING out of context, but let us just accept this "quote of part of a aya" where even the aya is needed within its context to understand
*NOTE THIS IS ONLY A PORTION OF THE AYAH*
002.217
YUSUFALI: And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
PICKTHAL: And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.
SHAKIR: And whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
ASAD: But if any of you should turn away from his faith and die as a denier of the truth - these it is whose works will go for nought in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.
What can we see? If one apostates - you will spend time in Hell. Even actions in life will not help you escape time in Hell.
Nothing about ordering the death of apostates.
Again , please point out where the Quran states to kill the unbeliever.
the fourth
this is an interesting one, and we NEED the full context to appreciate what is being said! So I must break with the scary notion of bringing in individual quotes...I initially realized this only after reading the full thing.
004.083
YUSUFALI: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.
PICKTHAL: And if any tidings, whether of safety or fear, come unto them, they noise it abroad, whereas if they had referred it to the messenger and to such of them as are in authority, those among them who are able to think out the matter would have known it. If it had not been for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy ye would have followed Satan, save a few (of you).
SHAKIR: And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers. Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
===========================================
* translation alert - translation alert for 004.084 *
One HUGE IMPORTANT PEICE OF INFORMATION is the following:
Let us look at the Arabic translittereated (the follwing taken from Asad - thank you sir!):
Faqatil fi sabilil-lahi la tukallafu illa nafsak. Wa harridil-mu minina asal~lahu any~yakuffa ba'sal~ladhina karafu; wal~lahu ashaddu basanw-wa ashaddu tankila
"Although primarly addressed to the Prophet, the "thou" in this sentence relates to every believer. The above exhoratation is to be understood in the context of a war already in progress, AND NOT AS AN INCITEMENT TO WAR"
You sure as hell won't get that if you had only a translation to rely on....another reason why it is always STRONGLY reccomended to have the original arabic there. A non arabic speaker will still not notice that (hopefully there is also paraphrasing) but the actual words will be there no matter what.
============================================
004.085
YUSUFALI: Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Whoso interveneth in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah overseeth all things.
SHAKIR: Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things.
004.086
YUSUFALI: When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
PICKTHAL: When ye are greeted with a greeting, greet ye with a better than it or return it. Lo! Allah taketh count of all things.
SHAKIR: And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
004.087
YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no Allah save Him. He gathereth you all unto a Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Who is more true in statement than Allah?
SHAKIR: Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?
004.088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
004.089 - the actual disputed quote!!!
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
ASAD: How tThey would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Dop not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to open enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succuor.
004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
In case you are not sure what enmity means:
http://www.google.com/search?q...&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
* hostility: a state of deep-seated ill-will
* hostility: the feeling of a hostile person; "he could no longer contain his hostility"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* An enemy or foe is a relativist term for an entity that is seen as forcefully adverse or threatening. The term is usually used within the greater context of war, to denote an opposing group and the individuals within as threats to one's own national, ethic, or political group. To individuals within the threatened group, the "enemy" concept is an amorphous personification of both a threat to one's collective social group, as well as a personal threat to oneself. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmity
So let us get this straight and use some internet lingo:
***
-If you are in the middle of a war - you should pwn them.
-If you they become hostile - you should pwn them.
-If they offer you peace or want to cease war - you have absolutely NO RIGHT to pwn them. Stop the pwnage.
***
Again - where is there a decleration to kill an unbeliever for being an unbeliever?
There isn't - because God ultimately deals with the apostate...not humans. And this message is clearly seen in the Quran and is most simply, and plainly embodied in this Ayah:
2:256
THERE SHALL BE NO COERCION IN MATTERS OF FAITH. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of ebil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God i all hearing, all knowing.
edit:
to make it clear who I was speaking to
edit2:
thanks to USC-MSA Quran archives for three translations next to eachother, as well as the translation of the Quran by Muhammad Asad(an Ashkenazi)
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the Prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.
4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)
We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter. Its meaning is much narrower than that of jihad, though this latter word also includes bloodshed.
Verse 90 goes on to say that if these nominal Muslims seek peace, not war, then Allah has not opened a way for Muhammad to fight them. He must allow them to live in their state of hypocrisy. However, as verse 89 says, if they turn back both from emigrating and Islam, then they shall be battled. So there is no ambiguity about Muhammad's policy on full apostates-death.
For other passages in the Quran that permit Muhammad to punish apostates, go
http://americanthinker.com/art...=5380&search=arlandson
http://www.islam-watch.org/Reb...slam/JamesApostasy.htm
so much post for so little. like the quietly dosed portions of poisoner before the lethal final dose that kills the victim, the apologist translations and grasping for straws really are utterly futile. here you have a god filled with rage and hate that burns people in hellfire because they chose to leave ideology, not because they were bad people. The foundation is rotten, it is a religion that doesn't believe in the freedom to think freely, it doesn't matter how you dance around the poisonous hateful notion. it is a petty vision of god and a petty religion, it is one that divides people and grants and demands undeserved and questionable moral authority of one group over all others. frankly you are wasting your time defending this muslim god who is more like satan than anything else. thats all you can really do, after all, if thats your idea of a perfect god, your definition of god is severely flawed, or you have a low standard of what you would want to worship.
and its only a fraction of what is wrong with the religion. defending islam is like trying to bandage the limbs of a rotted long dead tree, you are wasting your time.
The Stoning of Adulterers
Death to homosexuals
Crucifixion or mutiliation for highway robbery
Mutilation for male and female thieves
Whipping for alcoholism and gambing
Literal eye for eye
4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)
We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter. Its meaning is much narrower than that of jihad, though this latter word also includes bloodshed.
Verse 90 goes on to say that if these nominal Muslims seek peace, not war, then Allah has not opened a way for Muhammad to fight them. He must allow them to live in their state of hypocrisy. However, as verse 89 says, if they turn back both from emigrating and Islam, then they shall be battled. So there is no ambiguity about Muhammad's policy on full apostates-death.
For other passages in the Quran that permit Muhammad to punish apostates, go
http://americanthinker.com/art...=5380&search=arlandson
http://www.islam-watch.org/Reb...slam/JamesApostasy.htm
so much post for so little. like the quietly dosed portions of poisoner before the lethal final dose that kills the victim, the apologist translations and grasping for straws really are utterly futile. here you have a god filled with rage and hate that burns people in hellfire because they chose to leave ideology, not because they were bad people. The foundation is rotten, it is a religion that doesn't believe in the freedom to think freely, it doesn't matter how you dance around the poisonous hateful notion. it is a petty vision of god and a petty religion, it is one that divides people and grants and demands undeserved and questionable moral authority of one group over all others. frankly you are wasting your time defending this muslim god who is more like satan than anything else. thats all you can really do, after all, if thats your idea of a perfect god, your definition of god is severely flawed, or you have a low standard of what you would want to worship.
and its only a fraction of what is wrong with the religion. defending islam is like trying to bandage the limbs of a rotted long dead tree, you are wasting your time.
The Stoning of Adulterers
Death to homosexuals
Crucifixion or mutiliation for highway robbery
Mutilation for male and female thieves
Whipping for alcoholism and gambing
Literal eye for eye
Oh please - you liar. Did you read what I wrote? Apparantly not.
Firstly - God acts as an intensifier . IF we choose to come closer to God, he will bring us closer. If we choose to push away God, he will push us away even further. It makes perfect sense for God to "make people go astray" - because they went astray, so he just increases that. This is PLAINLY seen in the beginning of Surah 2:
2:6 Behold, as for those who are bent on denying the truth - it is all one to them whether though warnest them or dost not warn them: they will not believe.
2:7 And there are people who says "We do believe in God and the Last Day," the while they do not [really] believe
2:8 They would deceive God and those who have attained to faith - the while they deceive none but themselves, and perceive it not
2:9 In their hearts is disease, and so God has let their disease increase; and grievous suffering awaits them because of their persistent lying
2:10 and when they are told, "do not spread corruption on earth," they answer, "we are but improving things!"
2:12 Oh, verily, it is they, they who are spreading corruption - but they perceive it not!
Secondly - let us look at the other translations --> because clearly it is not JUST "turning the back away from God" (this is where problems in translation can be seen)
I HIGHLY suggest you go back and read it, else I'm stuck in speaking things verbatim. Just in case you don't want to scroll up:
the fourth
this is an interesting one, and we NEED the full context to appreciate what is being said! So I must break with the scary notion of bringing in individual quotes...I initially realized this only after reading the full thing.
004.083
YUSUFALI: When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.
PICKTHAL: And if any tidings, whether of safety or fear, come unto them, they noise it abroad, whereas if they had referred it to the messenger and to such of them as are in authority, those among them who are able to think out the matter would have known it. If it had not been for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy ye would have followed Satan, save a few (of you).
SHAKIR: And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few
004.084
YUSUFALI: Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
PICKTHAL: So fight (O Muhammad) in the way of Allah Thou art not taxed (with the responsibility for anyone) except thyself - and urge on the believers. Peradventure Allah will restrain the might of those who disbelieve. Allah is stronger in might and stronger in inflicting punishment.
SHAKIR: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
===========================================
* translation alert - translation alert for 004.084 *
One HUGE IMPORTANT PEICE OF INFORMATION is the following:
Let us look at the Arabic translittereated (the follwing taken from Asad - thank you sir!):
Faqatil fi sabilil-lahi la tukallafu illa nafsak. Wa harridil-mu minina asal~lahu any~yakuffa ba'sal~ladhina karafu; wal~lahu ashaddu basanw-wa ashaddu tankila
"Although primarly addressed to the Prophet, the "thou" in this sentence relates to every believer. The above exhoratation is to be understood in the context of a war already in progress, AND NOT AS AN INCITEMENT TO WAR"
You sure as hell won't get that if you had only a translation to rely on....another reason why it is always STRONGLY reccomended to have the original arabic there. A non arabic speaker will still not notice that (hopefully there is also paraphrasing) but the actual words will be there no matter what.
============================================
004.085
YUSUFALI: Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Whoso interveneth in a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whoso interveneth in an evil cause will bear the consequence thereof. Allah overseeth all things.
SHAKIR: Whoever joins himself (to another) in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself (to another) in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and Allah controls all things.
004.086
YUSUFALI: When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
PICKTHAL: When ye are greeted with a greeting, greet ye with a better than it or return it. Lo! Allah taketh count of all things.
SHAKIR: And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet with a better (greeting) than it or return it; surely Allah takes account of all things.
004.087
YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no Allah save Him. He gathereth you all unto a Day of Resurrection whereof there is no doubt. Who is more true in statement than Allah?
SHAKIR: Allah, there is no god but He-- He will most certainly gather you together on the resurrection day, there is no doubt in it; and who is more true in word than Allah?
004.088
YUSUFALI: Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
PICKTHAL: What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.
SHAKIR: What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
*************************************************** NOTICE THAT WHICH IS BOLDED
004.089 - the actual disputed quote!!!
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
ASAD: How tThey would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Dop not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to open enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succuor.
*************************************************NOTICE THAT WHICH IS BOLDED
004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
In case you are not sure what enmity means:http://www.google.com/search?q...&rls=org.mozilla:en-US
* hostility: a state of deep-seated ill-will
* hostility: the feeling of a hostile person; "he could no longer contain his hostility"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
* An enemy or foe is a relativist term for an entity that is seen as forcefully adverse or threatening. The term is usually used within the greater context of war, to denote an opposing group and the individuals within as threats to one's own national, ethic, or political group. To individuals within the threatened group, the "enemy" concept is an amorphous personification of both a threat to one's collective social group, as well as a personal threat to oneself. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmity
So let us get this straight and use some internet lingo:
***
-If you are in the middle of a war - you should pwn them.
-If you they become hostile - you should pwn them.
-If they offer you peace or want to cease war - you have absolutely NO RIGHT to pwn them. Stop the pwnage.
***
Again - where is there a decleration to kill an unbeliever for being an unbeliever?
Even if I were to entertain your notion that is about people who turned away from god - We are still stuck within the position that there is a war already in progress WAY before this situation , so of course you will have a verb like qatileh because there is ALREADY a SITUATION (as defined just FIVE SENTENCES EARLIER) of a) hostilties b)war c) enmity d)insert word relating to war here (like I mentioned in the previous post!). Of course that brings up an argument of what is an allowed war in the Quran and that is a totally different discussion which is out of the scope of this argument.
Furthermore, it makes LITTLE sense to kill an apostate SIMPLY because they apostated. Why? God accepts ANY person who repents for their actions. That is why at the beginning of EVERY Surah there is :Bssm Allah Al Rahman Al Raheem ~ in the name of God the most gracious, the most merciful. And the Quran - IF you have read it (I doubt you have - you seen to have very little of your own argument, just copying and pasting jihadwatch) then you will know that it state MULTIPLE TIMES OVER AND OVER that God ALWAYS accepts a person who seeks to mend their ways and repent for their actions. Killing someone instantly doesn't leave them much time to repent or even give them a chance to - and doesn't even make sense from a Quranic view point because it contradicts what the Quran says! Which is why...the Quran doesn't say to kill the "apostate".
Apologist Translations? LAWL - I posted 4 of them. You rely on one translation and claim to tell me this is the truth of Islam. You see what you want to see. If you want Islam to be a demonic religion that must be wiped out - you'll none of it proving otherwise. In my translations for 4:89 I didn't include ASAD simply because I only have that version on a physical book and its annoying to type it all out. Hell - using almost every quote that you have on your OWN shows absolutely nothing indicating that God commands humans to smite the apostate. It CLEARLY shows that God is not satisfied with the apostate, and that he will face a punishment in the after life. You have a problem with that? Well guess what - this is why you are not a muslim.
Hey look - deflection and changing of the argument! I'm ~ and others~ are only human - not everything can be discussed at once! Glad to see how confident you are in your original claim that the Quran dictates that apostates should be killed, when it says absolutely no such thing. Thanks for playing, kthxbye.
And I know you'll never change your opinion. You are too polarized - but I post to make sure that others don't get caught in your viral hatred for Islam because they read lies and believe it to be the truth. I have NO intention of wanting anyone to be a Muslim, or looking to convert people to it, or even claiming that Islam is a wonderful religion for all the rabbits in this world. I just want to refute plain lies - nothing more.
Now if you wanted to have a REAL argument - you would have NOT used lies about the Quran ~ but enter the realm of Hadith where you WILL find that information. But considering how the Hadith is purely man made and accepted as such by all Muslims, it has many CLEAR contradictions - for every "Pwn the Un believer" you will find a "Zomg if you pwn your peaceful non muslim neighbor, I - Muhammed, gets mad...and if I'm mad, then god is p'o ed" Of course though, now we wouldn't be discussing The Quran...but human writings a few hundred years after Prophet Mohammed...
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
actually i did read your drivel, which is why i clarified what i called the last drop of poison which frankly exists in a massive cauldron of toxic waste. why don't you setup a straw man somewhere else. my argument is that islam is flawed and a horrible religion, it doesn't matter which part you defend when so many others are crumbling, the simple fact is none of this perfect and supposedly divine religion should be so flawed at all by definition and so it is invalid. you should take your own advice and learn to read.
of course i won't change my opinion, you are the one making claims. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and so far you've produced nothing but the garbage that comprises this inhumane religion. and its perfectly reasonable to denounce such ideologies, why should it be respected. if you were spouting about belief in demon fairies and or other mythical nonsense no one would even bother with you, but religion such as this gets a pass for what is otherwise simply insanity. and thats wrong, wrong as any other evil. if nazism still existed as a force in this world people like you would have to argue that you had to be tolerant of the nazi's that you had to "respect" their beliefs. sorry man, f*ck that. that is the mindset of apostasy, limiting rational thought because they know it cannot stand up to it.
viral? think about your word..viral. thats what islam is, a virus of the mind. it cares nothing about the host, just its own perpetuation, it is completely amoral.
and you like to talk about lies. well frankly all you are doing is quibbling over lies that form this ideology. theres no win to be had there.
frankly you haven't given one good reason why you should even bother defending such a defective ideology. the fundamental fact is that it fundamentally poisons the interactions between groups when you believe you are so superior because you believe in a fairy tale and that the others will burn in hellfire because of it.
of course i won't change my opinion, you are the one making claims. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and so far you've produced nothing but the garbage that comprises this inhumane religion. and its perfectly reasonable to denounce such ideologies, why should it be respected. if you were spouting about belief in demon fairies and or other mythical nonsense no one would even bother with you, but religion such as this gets a pass for what is otherwise simply insanity. and thats wrong, wrong as any other evil. if nazism still existed as a force in this world people like you would have to argue that you had to be tolerant of the nazi's
that you had to "respect" their beliefs. sorry man, f*ck that. that is the mindset of apostasy, limiting rational thought because they know it cannot stand up to it.viral? think about your word..viral. thats what islam is, a virus of the mind. it cares nothing about the host, just its own perpetuation, it is completely amoral.
and you like to talk about lies. well frankly all you are doing is quibbling over lies that form this ideology. theres no win to be had there.
frankly you haven't given one good reason why you should even bother defending such a defective ideology. the fundamental fact is that it fundamentally poisons the interactions between groups when you believe you are so superior because you believe in a fairy tale and that the others will burn in hellfire because of it.
Nope, haven't read it, nor do I intend to read it. It brings a whole new meaning to the term "cult classic"
I'm interested in reading it considering Islam has such a massive following.
Questions:
How many English translations are there?
Do Muslims believe the Qu'ran to be infallible?
Questions:
How many English translations are there?
Do Muslims believe the Qu'ran to be infallible?
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
0roo0roo, I have been an agnostic from the age of eight and are at times virulently anti-religious, but you are simply quoting sources that take quotations completely out of context and then further twist them to make them sound as nefarious as possible. I suspect that magomago and I are worlds apart in terms of piousness, but he and I at least have actual working knowledge of the faith and both know for a fact that you are incorrect.
I've said this a couple of times already - people need not like about Islam in order to think negatively of the faith. There are numerous valid criticisms to focus upon without making up stuff. Sticking to your guns here is purely ignorance.
There are at least three English translations I know of.
The Koran is considered by Muslims to be the directly-penned word of god, so yes, it is infallible. It is also the be-all and end-all of religious thought, despite the popularity of hadiths.
I have read A.J. Arberry's "The Koran Interpreted" -- a translation so respectful of the original that he didn't call it a translation. I came to this translator from his English translations and editions of some Persian spiritual poetry.
Does the preface of Muhammad Zarfrulla Khan's translation refer to him?
"The Quran has been pronounced untranslatable by one of its best and most reverent translators who is gifted with an exceptional and most delicate faculty of transmitting Arabic and Persian poetry and prose into delightful English. His pronouncement is broadly true; but the effort must nevertheless be made. His own has produced an excellent translation, faithful and literal, which by the adoption of certain simple devices has made it comparatively easy to discover the meaning, so far as a translation is capable of conveying it. He has not given his translation that title, but that does not in the least detract from its value."
In his introduction, A. J. Arberry wrote:
"It is uncertain whether the whole of the text was committed to writing during the Prophet's lifetime; he himself is said to have been illiterate, and merely to have 'recited' the words he heard out of heaven. Tradition relates that a few years after his death the scattered fragments were collected together from 'scraps of parchment and leather, tablets of stone, ribs of palm branches, camels' shoulder-blades and ribs, pieces of board, and the breasts of men'--this last phrase referring to the retentive memories of the Prophet's immediate followers".
There are some words and passages in these translations which I do not take to be faithful to what I would believe to have been original words of Muhammad or God. And there are of course many notions which should be understood figuratively or spiritually, not literally. Any reading is an interpretation, and least of all would I consider the various pronouncements of those using the Qur'an as a means for political power and gain. I can't help but believe that to some degree, as a source of power and a potential for misunderstanding and human error, the Qur'an itself has been in part rendered inaccurately over the centuries.
All true religion, and all true spirituality, looks to the spiritual well-being of the self first, and incidentally to the sensual, material and egoistic detriment of the self. If you don't get that the Qur'an tells you to focus on God, then you don't get it at all. With this, one can easily understand the admonitions against having non-believers as friends. It is not that the Qur'an would tell you to make other people in the world your enemy; it would instead tell you to accept them as creations of God; to make peace where you can, and to focus on God and your spiritual well-being in that regard as paramount.
Even "believer" and "non-believer" are terms which are subject to interpretation. Consider the following passage:
"Those who disbelieve in God and His Messengers
and desire to make division between God
and His Messengers, and say 'We believe
in part, and disbelieve in part,' desiring
to take between this and that a way--
those in truth are the unbelievers;
and We have prepared for the unbelievers
a humbling chastisement.
And those who believe in God and His Messengers
and who make no division between any of them,
those--We shall surely give them their wages;
God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."
4:151-153, trans. A.J. Arberry
My interpretation of this passage is not that one should submit to literal interpretations of the Qur'an and take all its contents verbatim, especially as interpreted by the mullahs, but rather as a subtle and difficult point: That this is an admonition against divisiveness among those who follow apparently different messengers of God. How is it possible to reconcile the apparent words of Jesus and Muhammad and other Messengers? This is the task of the would-be believer. Not to take the Qur'an as the single monopoly of truth, or any other such book as such, but to understand and live the message common to them all, words which would fit One called God.
Does the preface of Muhammad Zarfrulla Khan's translation refer to him?
"The Quran has been pronounced untranslatable by one of its best and most reverent translators who is gifted with an exceptional and most delicate faculty of transmitting Arabic and Persian poetry and prose into delightful English. His pronouncement is broadly true; but the effort must nevertheless be made. His own has produced an excellent translation, faithful and literal, which by the adoption of certain simple devices has made it comparatively easy to discover the meaning, so far as a translation is capable of conveying it. He has not given his translation that title, but that does not in the least detract from its value."
In his introduction, A. J. Arberry wrote:
"It is uncertain whether the whole of the text was committed to writing during the Prophet's lifetime; he himself is said to have been illiterate, and merely to have 'recited' the words he heard out of heaven. Tradition relates that a few years after his death the scattered fragments were collected together from 'scraps of parchment and leather, tablets of stone, ribs of palm branches, camels' shoulder-blades and ribs, pieces of board, and the breasts of men'--this last phrase referring to the retentive memories of the Prophet's immediate followers".
There are some words and passages in these translations which I do not take to be faithful to what I would believe to have been original words of Muhammad or God. And there are of course many notions which should be understood figuratively or spiritually, not literally. Any reading is an interpretation, and least of all would I consider the various pronouncements of those using the Qur'an as a means for political power and gain. I can't help but believe that to some degree, as a source of power and a potential for misunderstanding and human error, the Qur'an itself has been in part rendered inaccurately over the centuries.
All true religion, and all true spirituality, looks to the spiritual well-being of the self first, and incidentally to the sensual, material and egoistic detriment of the self. If you don't get that the Qur'an tells you to focus on God, then you don't get it at all. With this, one can easily understand the admonitions against having non-believers as friends. It is not that the Qur'an would tell you to make other people in the world your enemy; it would instead tell you to accept them as creations of God; to make peace where you can, and to focus on God and your spiritual well-being in that regard as paramount.
Even "believer" and "non-believer" are terms which are subject to interpretation. Consider the following passage:
"Those who disbelieve in God and His Messengers
and desire to make division between God
and His Messengers, and say 'We believe
in part, and disbelieve in part,' desiring
to take between this and that a way--
those in truth are the unbelievers;
and We have prepared for the unbelievers
a humbling chastisement.
And those who believe in God and His Messengers
and who make no division between any of them,
those--We shall surely give them their wages;
God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate."
4:151-153, trans. A.J. Arberry
My interpretation of this passage is not that one should submit to literal interpretations of the Qur'an and take all its contents verbatim, especially as interpreted by the mullahs, but rather as a subtle and difficult point: That this is an admonition against divisiveness among those who follow apparently different messengers of God. How is it possible to reconcile the apparent words of Jesus and Muhammad and other Messengers? This is the task of the would-be believer. Not to take the Qur'an as the single monopoly of truth, or any other such book as such, but to understand and live the message common to them all, words which would fit One called God.
Atif
Platinum Member
- Oct 10, 2001
- 2,423
- 11
- 81
LOL, why are you so offended? I asked you a random question and you inferred it to mean that I was "comparing" something to the punishment for treason in the U.S. Army.
As you cool down, I'm sure that even you'll admit that in the Army, the punishment for treason for a top-rank General is different than that of a new recruit fresh out of training, correct? Why is this so?
It is because an established veteran of the Army is understood to have a complete understanding of the cause he is representing. He is to be in completely agreement ideologically to the institution of the Army and his role within it. If this veteran commits treason in its highest form - abandoning the U.S. Army and joining the Army of North Korea - he will be severely punished when/if recovered.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, if a soldier, having just completed training, grows tired of the time commitment necessary to serve in the Army walks away from service, his punishment will be different. It may be that this individual only joined for the financial benefit offered by the Army, or because it was the "cool" thing to do.
You are obviously an educated individual, and for this reason alone, I am appalled by your ignorance with respect to the right to reserve capital punishment for acts of treason even in secular law (treason, as defined by the U.S. Constitution, treason is punishable by death in the U.S. even today).
In closing, I point out once more that the apostate, or one who commits treason against the rule of God is NOT killed. IF there were an Islamic State, (one that implements the social, penal, familial system of God) and there was a case of treason against the rule of the state (and by extension, God's rule), the individual would still NOT be killed necessarily. It would be the duty of the government to investigate the specific case, and, make a fair judgement. IF the act of treason against the state was heinous enough, the government would have the ability to hand down capital punishment, just as is the case in many Western and Eastern European governments today.
Peace
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Ignorance is nothing to be proud of. I've read virtually every religious text there is, including the Quran and the Bible, and am not a believer or a follower. Islam is nice in its own way. I feel that of all the major religions it has the deepest and most profound understanding of the God concept. It's just not in my nature to subscribe to any one particular belief or to pledge allegiance to any one particular group.
Uh... and the Lord of the Rings is a religious book in its own way. I'm a huge fan of Tolkein's books and have read them all until the covers fell off (IMO his prose style was bar none the best of any author in the 20th century). He was also profoundly religious, devoutly Catholic, and very much outspoken about it. The religious symbolism in LOTR is immense. The ring itself is symbolic of Matthew 19:24. In order to go to Heaven (the land of the Valar in the West), Frodo had to venture into Hell (Mordor) and cast off all his material possessions that bound him in purgatory (Middle Earth). That's the entire story in a sentence.
Haven't read the Qu'ran, the Koran, the Bible, or the Book of Mormon.
I prefer science fiction to plain fiction.
I prefer science fiction to plain fiction.
Discussing religious things in a forum really is frustrating, it seems like a bunch of people just spinning tires, I don?t know why I keep falling into thinking there could be some movement of what someone believes through discussion in a forum. I think really all this should be done face to face. I really need to learn that.
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