Has Globalization Undermined America's Working Class?

[Jaskalas]

I think some folks here are mis-conflating the argument. This isn't about redistribution of wealth. It's very obvious that you guys are in favor of simply taxing the wealthy at higher rates in an effort to redistribute it down to the lower classes. That has nothing to do with globalism. That is a domestic choice of every given country.

Whether you have globalism or not, how you tax a nation has little to do with the subject. Or are you insinuating that if we just taxed the wealthy higher that globalism wouldn't have had such an effect as it did? If so, how and why?

At the end of the day, peoples skills are no longer useful here. No amount of taxing will make them useful again. I think @mect is the only one here that has admitted that yet and hence why he is in favor of UBI. If anything you're admitting that globalism is the problem, but your idea of the only way to fight against it is to increase taxes to forcefully redistribute.

What you called Globalism is merely a better form of Capitalism. The economy is not a static thing to be held in amber and admired as a dinosaur. It lives, it breaths, it evolves. In short, Capitalism strives to become the most efficient. Lower wages are "better" for Capitalism, but not for its people. There is no worker interest in Corporate Profits if those profits are not shared. And there are few to zero CEOs who care more about their workers than making more money for the next quarter. Even if, ultimately, they destroy their own consumers.

Ours is a mission to SAVE Capitalism from going too far. From cannibalizing itself, and us along with it.

So Wall Street realized slave wages in other nations were the next big thing. You call that move Globalization. Big !@#$ing deal. Automation eclipses that by an order of magnitude. All to serve the same goal, efficiency. We love Capitalism for that, but we need to keep it within reason. To restrict it from going too far. You want to attack the movement of labor, of goods and services. I would rather let them do things the best way possible, and tax them to obtain our worker's share.

I do not care what people do with their skills. But mine is a plan that helps them pursue their dreams and goals without fear of begging for scraps.

 

[Starbuck1975]

In short, yes

Globalization and automation assumes a level playing field where companies reinvest the efficiency gains towards retraining or repurposing their existing work force.

Globalization allows companies to circumvent all of the gains made by the labor movement to achieve some self serving goal of “shareholder value”. Immigration has a similar effect. The “jobs Americans won’t do” narrative is rubbish.

It’s also arrogant to assume that the average worker has the means or capabilities to simply retrain for the “new” economy.

The shift of our economy to white collar service jobs is part of the problem as well. Those people may not care today, but AI is going to displace a lot of white collar workers in the not too distant future.

 

[ivwshane]

You can give people UBI but that's not the same as giving them purpose in life. Animals in the zoo have the equivalent of UBI and it's not like they have fully actualized lives, likewise neither would people given the money to buy essentials but nothing to do with their lives but take meth and watch Jerry Springer all day.

What’s funny about that is that the only study available on an actual real world example where UBI was used is that it didn’t do much to help/hurt the economy or jobs but it did increase happiness.

Universal income study finds money for nothing won't make us work less

People sitting in the sun on the stone steps outside the cathedral in Helsinki, Finland. For the last two years the Finnish government has been giving 2000 unemployed people a guaranteed, no-strings-attached payment each month. It is the world’s most robust test of universal basic income, and...

www.newscientist.com

Who would have thought that having financial security would improve happiness.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Humans at all levels are becoming obsolete at an ever increasing pace. Globalization means that other lower paid people will have jobs for a bit longer, but CPAs, management and eventually legal pros, physicians, and corporate boards. A few specialists positions sure and for now things which require high degrees of physical dexterity.

At some point machines can do things better, faster and cheaper than everyone here.

That's the real problem

 

[ivwshane]

So what's the counter offer? Force them to struggle to give them purpose?

It’s to work them like slaves so that they are too tired to think about their purpose in life.

 

[mect]

Right - but we are talking about worthless unskilled labor. They still will be unskilled, even with $12k a year in their pocket. No, they won't seek education. No, they won't try to train themselves.

Are you contending that the working class is composed primarily of worthless, unskilled labor? That is an interesting contention. I agree we aren't going to take these people and turn them into coders. That is again why I support the UBI. If we could take them all and train them for $100k per year jobs, we wouldn't need a UBI. That wasn't the point I was making though. The point is that research shows that a UBI isn't going to make people quit their jobs and just sit around doing nothing with no purpose.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Humans at all levels are becoming obsolete at an ever increasing pace. Globalization means that other lower paid people will have jobs for a bit longer, but CPAs, management and eventually legal pros, physicians, and corporate boards. A few specialists positions sure and for now things which require high degrees of physical dexterity.

At some point machines can do things better, faster and cheaper than everyone here.

That's the real problem

If I were a betting man, I'd put everything on that not going well for most people. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[cytg111]

The I way I see it is that globalization opens up enormous potential .. In some countries though, some segments has managed to dice the cake for themselves. I am talking about your 0.1%'ers... Globalization isnt evil, its a bag of prosperity. Your Murdoch's and Mercer's and Bezo's and etc etc etc .. has taken off with the bag all for themselves.

Another thing, globalization is innovation, its evolution of our species, its either get with the program or become the Taliban of your time.

Embrace globalization and make sure no single individual steals the loot.

 

[cytg111]

Humans at all levels are becoming obsolete at an ever increasing pace. Globalization means that other lower paid people will have jobs for a bit longer, but CPAs, management and eventually legal pros, physicians, and corporate boards. A few specialists positions sure and for now things which require high degrees of physical dexterity.

At some point machines can do things better, faster and cheaper than everyone here.

That's the real problem

Agreed. Except for the "problem" part. Its the next step in our evolution... Its gonna be grand.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I believe globalization has indeed undermined the US middle class because while economies are global, societies are not. Economies have no purpose other than concentrating value. They may allow societies to flourish, expand and, diversify but, they don't do so without controls and vision/direction from those who oversee the controls. In America we have accepted the "right" of corporations to define our society. Corporate America has no use for a middle class. In my opinion, this is extremely foolish in the long run because quality of life and innovation is driven by the middle class.

 

[Maxima1]

Right - but we are talking about worthless unskilled labor. They still will be unskilled, even with $12k a year in their pocket. No, they won't seek education. No, they won't try to train themselves.

Are we talking about a hypothetical present? There are still going to be a lot of jobs for the foreseeable future that could supplement a UBI. But if most jobs are gone? 'Course they shouldn't seek a career. A significant portion of the population isn't even suited for the most basic of jobs.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Agreed. Except for the "problem" part. Its the next step in our evolution... Its gonna be grand.

That depends on what we are smart enough to do with it. Considering the money grubbing gotta have the newest thing and better that the other person mentality, how will modern egos survive?

 

[zzyzxroad]

This is an interesting topic. I know middle class is a relatively modern concept but I can't find a good source for US historical statistics going back before the 60s.

 

[sandorski]

re: China vs USA - One of these is experiencing an economic miracle with a ballooning Middle Class while the other has been experiencing a shrinking Middle Class with no hope for a turn around in sight. Poverty is decreasing in one while increasing in the other.

 

[1prophet]

Yes, we can shit on Capitalism all you want here, but it doesn't mean free-trade won't occur if you're doing socialism, communism, or whatever you fancy from an economic perspective.

What is your answer? Tariffs? No trading? Don't allow global companies to invest in your country?

FBI sting targets ‘sex tourists’

For a down payment of $1,675, Jorge Muentes thought he had booked a package trip to Costa Rica, complete with airfare, hotel accommodations and 24 hours with a teen prostitute, according to federal…

www.sun-sentinel.com

Not to long ago people in the US would travel overseas in order to sexually exploit minors without the fear of US law, well the USA then passed a law that said if you exploit anyone under 18 anywhere in the world you can and will be tried under US law regardless if it was legal in the country the exploitation occurred finally closing the sex tourism loophole.

Imagine now if any good or service that is meant to go to the US has to meet the same or similar labor, safety, and environmental standards as well as product safety standards including intellectual property rights as if it was made in America, imagine if a tech company claimed there was a shortage of American engineers and tech workers, so they wanted H1b visas but the government required prevailing wage. Imagine if CEO's and other officers of companies that hired illegals would actually have to go to jail not just pay a fine.

Now imagine what would happen to outsourcing, H1b exploitation and hiring illegals.

 

[thilanliyan]

^Until people are okay paying more for their stuff that isn't gonna happen.

 

[Jhhnn]

re: China vs USA - One of these is experiencing an economic miracle with a ballooning Middle Class while the other has been experiencing a shrinking Middle Class with no hope for a turn around in sight. Poverty is decreasing in one while increasing in the other.

The job creators of multinational capitalism giveth, and they also taketh away. It's nothing personal. Labor costs are just a number on a spreadsheet.

 

[rommelrommel]

Right - but we are talking about worthless unskilled labor. They still will be unskilled, even with $12k a year in their pocket. No, they won't seek education. No, they won't try to train themselves.

Even if this were true... So some sit at home and do nothing. Better they play video games than start raping and pillaging.

And in realityville, most will still work, many will contribute to their community, etc.

The issue is that eventually a negligible, possibly zero, number of human beings will be capable of doing anything of any value. Do we just let them all die once that happens?

 

[pmv]

I suspect the awkward reality is you can't make economic integration work without political integration. And the resistance to political integration is absolutely immense, cf events in the EU. Perhaps there's no answer?

I don't think UBI is an answer either. Both because of the point already made about people wanting a 'purpose' in life, but also because the only real proposals for it and the only form that seems remotely politically-possible, do not set it high enough to enable a decent life. Instead it just becomes a low-level subsistance income that keeps workers alive and available for the owners of capital when needed, while removing any obligation from those owners of capital to provide any job security. As proposed it meets the needs of employers more than the workers, it allows them to wash their hands of worrying about the labour force, they can just dip in and out of a great army of people left barely-existing on that basic income.

It also becomes a state-subsidy for employers who pay poverty-wages.

 

[pmv]

re: China vs USA - One of these is experiencing an economic miracle with a ballooning Middle Class while the other has been experiencing a shrinking Middle Class with no hope for a turn around in sight. Poverty is decreasing in one while increasing in the other.

The two are at different stages of development though. Very hard to compare, or to know what will happen in China in the future. Also the stats on poverty-reduction in China are not very reliable. For one thing, as I understand it, they specifically _exclude_ people who have moved to urban areas, they only really count the rural poor.

 

[pmv]

FBI sting targets ‘sex tourists’

For a down payment of $1,675, Jorge Muentes thought he had booked a package trip to Costa Rica, complete with airfare, hotel accommodations and 24 hours with a teen prostitute, according to federal…

www.sun-sentinel.com

Not to long ago people in the US would travel overseas in order to sexually exploit minors without the fear of US law, well the USA then passed a law that said if you exploit anyone under 18 anywhere in the world you can and will be tried under US law regardless if it was legal in the country the exploitation occurred finally closing the sex tourism loophole.

Imagine now if any good or service that is meant to go to the US has to meet the same or similar labor, safety, and environmental standards as well as product safety standards including intellectual property rights as if it was made in America, imagine if a tech company claimed there was a shortage of American engineers and tech workers, so they wanted H1b visas but the government required prevailing wage. Imagine if CEO's and other officers of companies that hired illegals would actually have to go to jail not just pay a fine.

Now imagine what would happen to outsourcing, H1b exploitation and hiring illegals.

Reminds me of the argument over the US's acceptance of chlorinated chicken. If we have to do a trade deal with the US post-Brexit, will we be able to while maintaining UK food-safety standards or animal welfare rules? Can the NHS be protected from predatory US health-care companies?

Even as it is, even within the EU, there are many such problems - the rest of the EU mostly has weaker animal welfare rules so can produce cheaper food and the rules mean it can't be subject to tariffs here. They don't tax lorry fuel nearly as highly so other EU lorry drivers have an advantage over those who have to buy fuel here. And so on.

There are multiple such issues within just the EU, and that's despite having a significant degree of political integration and agreed common rules. The trouble with the EU, in my opinion, is it's a half-way-house. It isn't politically integrated _enough_. It concentrates too much on economic integration and not enough on real political integration (see also the Eurozone, run largely for the benefit of Germany). But the people who are upset about the effect of that are almost all opposed to further political integration, leaving the only solution to try and go backwards - hence Brexit.

In practice, imposing your own domestic standards on imported goods or people is politically very difficult, when you don't have a world government or single global polity.

 

[Maxima1]

I don't think UBI is an answer either. Both because of the point already made about people wanting a 'purpose' in life,

I don't really understand the purpose thing. Most people who seem to say this already have a decent job (we all know firefighters love being paid to sleep or cops/nurses supporting 3 days a week) and ironically would get really upset if you took even a few thousand from them.

I mean, if I told you that I would allow you to get paid 40 for one 12 hour day in a week, there is no fucking way you're going to tell me you'll pass. No way.

I can imagine a lot of workers near or at minimum wage would love having UBI and some supplemental hours from working. It's like a free SSI.

Instead it just becomes a low-level subsistance income that keeps workers alive and available for the owners of capital when needed, while removing any obligation from those owners of capital to provide any job security.
It also becomes a state-subsidy for employers who pay poverty-wages.

How is the government providing it? Presumably it would be coming from progressive taxation.

UBI should raise wages by itself because the reservation wage would go up. People wouldn't be as desperate.

 

[glenn1]

What you called Globalism is merely a better form of Capitalism. The economy is not a static thing to be held in amber and admired as a dinosaur. It lives, it breaths, it evolves. In short, Capitalism strives to become the most efficient. Lower wages are "better" for Capitalism, but not for its people. There is no worker interest in Corporate Profits if those profits are not shared. And there are few to zero CEOs who care more about their workers than making more money for the next quarter. Even if, ultimately, they destroy their own consumers.

Lower wages also lead to lower prices over time so it's not like consumers get no benefit. Yeah if I'm a worker in the company whose wages have gone down I'm worse off, but all the other consumers of that company's products are better off. This graph obviously isn't perfect because it makes a complex sector into a single line or two on a graph but it gives the basic picture. Electrical appliances are another example, a washer/dryer set used to cost around $500 in the 1950s now they work considerably better and in constant dollars are obviously quite cheaper.

Electrical goods and appliances in the 1950's prices examples from The People History Site

prices for electrical goods and appliances in the 1950's examples from The People History Site

www.thepeoplehistory.com

 

[glenn1]

I suspect the awkward reality is you can't make economic integration work without political integration. And the resistance to political integration is absolutely immense, cf events in the EU. Perhaps there's no answer?

I don't think UBI is an answer either. Both because of the point already made about people wanting a 'purpose' in life, but also because the only real proposals for it and the only form that seems remotely politically-possible, do not set it high enough to enable a decent life. Instead it just becomes a low-level subsistance income that keeps workers alive and available for the owners of capital when needed, while removing any obligation from those owners of capital to provide any job security. As proposed it meets the needs of employers more than the workers, it allows them to wash their hands of worrying about the labour force, they can just dip in and out of a great army of people left barely-existing on that basic income.

It also becomes a state-subsidy for employers who pay poverty-wages.

If you want to replace current social welfare programs and other transfer payments with UBI then go for it. If it's a supplement then I'm not interested. If the UBI needs to be higher to ensure that taking away those welfare benefits is doable then go for it, but I'm guessing the progressive left will lose a lot of interest if that's the deal. Many of them are simply looking at UBI as a possible new income stream for the poors in addition to the existing transfer payment system.

 

[ivwshane]

If you want to replace current social welfare programs and other transfer payments with UBI then go for it. If it's a supplement then I'm not interested. If the UBI needs to be higher to ensure that taking away those welfare benefits is doable then go for it, but I'm guessing the progressive left will lose a lot of interest if that's the deal. Many of them are simply looking at UBI as a possible new income stream for the poors in addition to the existing transfer payment system.

Why bother educating yourself on the topic when you can just make assumptions and argue against a boogeyman? We have a democratic candidate who's UBI policy you can look at right now. I guess that's too much work for you.