Has Globalization Undermined America's Working Class?

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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
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That's nonsense. There are not enough homes for every young couple to have one, period.

There is plenty of space in this country for everyone to have a home while maintaining reasonable density and leaving green spaces untouched. Especially considering the fact that many young people prefer a condo in the city rather than a regular lot. Everyone lives here now, don’t they?

It could even help small second tier cities grow and become prosperous as people realize their $216k can actually buy a place there if they’re the type to want a stand-alone house rather than condo.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
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Are you contending that the working class is composed primarily of worthless, unskilled labor? That is an interesting contention. I agree we aren't going to take these people and turn them into coders. That is again why I support the UBI. If we could take them all and train them for $100k per year jobs, we wouldn't need a UBI. That wasn't the point I was making though. The point is that research shows that a UBI isn't going to make people quit their jobs and just sit around doing nothing with no purpose.
It would need to be some soft of modified UBI. A ~$3.5 trillion US is an awful lot of money ($14K per adult). Way too expensive, even for the US. I still wonder why Finland ended their experiment.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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It would need to be some soft of modified UBI. A ~$3.5 trillion US is an awful lot of money ($14K per adult). Way too expensive, even for the US. I still wonder why Finland ended their experiment.

Going to guess it had to do with my fear.
What happens when there is a news report about some guy spending all his UBI money on hookers & blow. Guaranteed the whole program falls apart. Normal Jane or Joe is not going to be able to get their heads around it’s cheaper to let this guy buy hookers & blow than set up some kind of enforceable program that monitors spending.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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It would need to be some soft of modified UBI. A ~$3.5 trillion US is an awful lot of money ($14K per adult). Way too expensive, even for the US. I still wonder why Finland ended their experiment.

A full UBI isn't too much per se. One tool to control inflation is taxation. A good tax would be real estate/land values. It would level the playing field between renters/home owners, make better use of land, and redistribute distortionary economic rents.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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It would need to be some soft of modified UBI. A ~$3.5 trillion US is an awful lot of money ($14K per adult). Way too expensive, even for the US. I still wonder why Finland ended their experiment.
I think we need to be really careful of the mentality that a program is too expensive if it is only expensive relative to our current level of taxation. America (and the world at large to some extent) has this real hatred of taxation that is a significant driving force behind increased income inequality. We have this huge fear in this country that we are going to hurt the wealthy but seemingly little fear of hurting the poor and middle class. As automation continues to drive down wages, at some point we're going to need to accept our choices of extreme disparities of wealth or significant taxation. I wouldn't have any issue doubling federal taxes in America (~3.5 trillion) to pay a UBI of $14k per adult per year. I also recognize that a lot of people would, however.

It would be politically challenging, primarily because the government donors would fight it tooth and nail to try to cast it as the downfall of America. I also think there are possibly easier ways to start. For example the equivalent of a UBI that is income based that would instead supplement income to bring everyone above the poverty line. This would require significantly less taxation, but would still provide a good social safety net. The problem is there would be much more of a stigma attached.

But yes, we will probably need to start small initially and then ramp up slowly over time.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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Going to guess it had to do with my fear.
What happens when there is a news report about some guy spending all his UBI money on hookers & blow. Guaranteed the whole program falls apart. Normal Jane or Joe is not going to be able to get their heads around it’s cheaper to let this guy buy hookers & blow than set up some kind of enforceable program that monitors spending.

I doubt it. Alaska has had what is essentially basic income for awhile, and it is really popular. Even a Republican figured why not just increase it? The problem that ensues is getting voters and the pols behind progressive taxation and realigning public employee compensation closer to private sector.


In 2018, Republican state Sen. Mike Dunleavy saw an opportunity. Despite traditional Republican aversions to handouts, Dunleavy ran for governor on the campaign platform of increasing the PFD. He promised every resident up to $6,700, to make up for Walker’s cuts in 2016 and 2017 — though he was foggy on how the state could pay.The result? Dunleavy won by a landslide.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,512
17,016
136
This is a tech forum so I figured you understand Boolean operators.

if (solution === "replaces current social welfare programs and other transfer payments") {
println("Go for it!");
} else {
println("Not interested!");
}

Why are you so fucking dishonest? Yes you made that statement and then you needlessly added the part about dems double dipping into the welfare system. You are such a partisan hack
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
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I doubt it. Alaska has had what is essentially basic income for awhile, and it is really popular. Even a Republican figured why not just increase it? The problem that ensues is getting voters and the pols behind progressive taxation and realigning public employee compensation closer to private sector.


In 2018, Republican state Sen. Mike Dunleavy saw an opportunity. Despite traditional Republican aversions to handouts, Dunleavy ran for governor on the campaign platform of increasing the PFD. He promised every resident up to $6,700, to make up for Walker’s cuts in 2016 and 2017 — though he was foggy on how the state could pay.The result? Dunleavy won by a landslide.

Yeh, since private sector workers have been getting progressively screwed for 40 years we need to extend that to the public sector, too.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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761
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Yeh, since private sector workers have been getting progressively screwed for 40 years we need to extend that to the public sector, too.

We both know the pols do not ask the rich to pay 100% of these overly generous compensation packages. This stuff goes into sales tax, property tax, etc..
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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Rather like Thatcher's "property owning democracy" and desire to get everyone owning shares in the stock market by selling them off when things were privatised. Just didn't work. The shares mostly just ended up in the same few hands again. Only well-connected people with money and inside knowledge/contacts can really sustain making good money out of shares. Everyone else gets fleeced and gives up, lacking the resources to play that game.


Even with the council housing sell-off - which was and is popular among those directly benefiting from it - what actually happened for many (like my neighbour) was they then couldn't afford the mortgage and had to sell up to a buy-to-let landlord, who then rented out the property to the same sort of people who would once have lived there as council tenants. Only now the property is rented out at a much higher rent than the state once changed...and then the tenants claim that money from the state as housing-benefit, so the state now pays private landlords to rent back the same property the state once owned. It can end up much the same but with private landlords as a middle-man taking a large cut.

Thatcher was a wonder indeed. Folks talk about Reagan but she could, maybe should, be considered a revolutionary figure.

I also blame her for Blair who I think was actually the bastard child of her and Reagan. :)
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,931
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They tried this, several times in fact. Each time they lost their shirts.

In almost every case, people losing their shirts was a result of:

1). No real financial education
2). Concentration of assets in a limited set of equities
3). Impatience

Equity markets are volatile. Everyone suffers the same rise and fall of financial fortunes in the United States if everyone owns a "piece of the pie". If you want the people to (in the Marxist fashion) "own the means of production", then the people get to suffer when the "means of production" loses value. Nothing's ever going to be perfect. Many "lose their shirts" when they foolishly sell assets in a down market instead of just holding on to them. Others were suckered into concentrating stock in their own company into a 401(k) instead of using a diverse allocation of assets from other financial sectors (especially hedge assets, like gold). Still others foolishly invested in, as you said, Ponzis or other schemes.

When you're given the responsibility of owning the most-precious assets of society, bad people will show up and try to cheat you. Human beings can be horrible. New laws and regulations will not stop people from being awful.

Today, you can honestly say that the wealthy do own the "means of production" - the majority of equity in private enterprise. 50% of American's don't even own stock in anything, and a smaller percentage have never made an informed choice about which equities they might wish to hold (they have an index fund in a 401(k) or similar). If we could transition away from concentration of equity ownership among the wealthy/ultra-wealthy to a healthier model where those who are now less-wealthy begin acquiring a greater share of corporate equity, do you agree that would be a good or a bad thing? Especially if we could teach them how not to be cheated by scammer?

By the by, if you'd examine some of the most-recent scammers (like Madoff) you'd find that the rich can be scammed as well. The responsibility of ownership brings with it perils. If you really want people to have a stake in the future, then you must accept that some of them will screw it up royally. Babysitting adults in perpetuity requires taking away their ability to effectively own/control anything.

Taxation of course. I dont see there is a way around it.

I do. Taxation hasn't done anything to upset the growing trend towards concentration of wealth. If anything, a progressive income-based tax system encourages concentration of wealth, since the taxing authority gains a greater share of society's wealth as it is earned by those in the highest tax brackets. It is logical that the taxing authority would govern in a manner that ultimately favors the profitability of those who would pay the most in taxes. But let us not be side-tracked by tax theory, and instead examine other methods outside of taxation that could permit the "lower classes" an opportunity to regain ownership of society:

1). Re-establish Federal government authority over corporations

Corporations in the United States are ultimately creations of the goverrnment. No matter how much anyone says, "I'm a self-made man and I built my business from the ground up!", the truth is that any corporation outside the sole proprietership exists solely at the discretion of the government in any capacity that can be recognized by the courts. It's been that way since British colonial times. If the Feds say, "Amazon, your corporate structure is now illegal, and you must dissolve", then it is so. More-importantly, the Feds determines rules for how shares can be created and distributed, and when, and by whom. If there is a need to encourage the wealthy to begin selling off their shares in major corporations, then the Feds have all the tools they need to begin circulating ownership of society among less-well-heeled Americans. There's a lot of ground to cover under this sub-heading, so if we must expand upon that later then so be it. For now, brevity.

2). Encourage financial education

Do something simple, like piggy-back on the EIC program to give small bonuses to those who can complete some mail-order/online courses (free, of course) in financial education. What are stocks? Bonds? Annuities? How do they work? Why should you (or shouldn't you) own them? Remember, these are the tools the rich use to stay rich. Don't act like wealthy people are all ultra-intelligent, meritorious members of society either. It doesn't take an IQ of 140+ to be wealthy. I'm sure someone with a 95-100 could handle it. Many already do.

3). Rethink our tax model

Prior to World War I, the majority of tax revenue in the United States was generated by: tariffs. Anyone who is interested in "originalism" and "returning America to its roots" has to give tariffs another look. Tariffs tend to do the most damage to those who rely on moving assets into and out of the country with little impediment. They do the least damage to those who rely on doing business with someone else locally. Which segues into the next point.

4). Penalize expropriation of assets/IP

Part of the push towards concentration of wealth in the United States involved expropriation of entire businesses from the United States to other countries to drive higher profit margins. Assign harsh (and if necessary, recurring) financial penalties to those who transfer production methods and IP to other countries in order to establish production in those countries, especially if those countries have low wage scales compared to the United States. Track their movements carefully to punish triangulation.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,931
13,014
136
@woolfe9998

At issue is who owns the automation once it's deployed. Globalization has a lot to do with that.

Job loss is job loss whether you lose your job to a foreigner or to a robot. The question is, what do you do when you're left empty-handed once the value of your labor is driven into the basement?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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@woolfe9998

At issue is who owns the automation once it's deployed. Globalization has a lot to do with that.

No, the issue is that people are losing their jobs over it, regardless of who owns it and what country it is in. In the US, we have automated our factories, replacing workers. A far smaller number have lost jobs due to factories being set up overseas for cheaper labor. Whether you replace your relatively expensive workers with machines or cheaper humans probably depends on the nature of the manufacturing and the relative cost-benefit comparison between the two. It's notable that in most cases they have gone the machine route. Those decisions were based on present and past technology.

However, in the long run, machines get cheaper and more sophisticated and they become more efficient in a higher percentage of scenarios. Not that far down the road, you won't be able to find a human in any country willing to work cheap enough to be cheaper than a machine, at which point globalization will be moot. This will be especially true with the development of cheaper energy, such as more efficient solar panels or, farther down the line, fusion.

Eventually - in this century, not the next - manufacturing will be done virtually all by machines. It won't matter who owns them or where they are except for the critical issue of which government the owners are paying taxes to. But the end result will be the same everywhere: very inexpensive manufactured goods, and no jobs for humans making any of it.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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Right - but we are talking about worthless unskilled labor. They still will be unskilled, even with $12k a year in their pocket. No, they won't seek education. No, they won't try to train themselves.

Keep in mind... someone has to do the "worthless unskilled labor". That's why I always find it odd how people seem to hate on "lesser jobs" yet tend to be perfectly willing to utilize their services. (In other words, speak ill a McDonald's worker yet happily order a Big Mac.) I find life a bit more relaxed when you consider that most of us are part of this giant service economy... just cogs that keep this giant machine turning.
 

JJmagg

Banned
Sep 28, 2019
3
1
36
Of course we've been sold out to Wall St. Quarterly eàrnings/ jobs, quality of product..
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,169
15,590
136
Ew javascript.
Right - but we are talking about worthless unskilled labor. They still will be unskilled, even with $12k a year in their pocket. No, they won't seek education. No, they won't try to train themselves.
Its that fine line between carrot and stick.
Some of us only need the carrot and off we are to the stars.
Some of us needs the stick to get moving.
Most of us probably thrives on a mixture of both.
We have to consider the psychological aspects of our race when we design our future.
Say UBI @ 50% and with community work and education you can advance that to 100%. I dont know how the specifics would work out, but we have to encompass all of what we are. It also needs to be worked out in a structure of checks and balances for durability reasons.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
No, the issue is that people are losing their jobs over it, regardless of who owns it and what country it is in. In the US, we have automated our factories, replacing workers. A far smaller number have lost jobs due to factories being set up overseas for cheaper labor. Whether you replace your relatively expensive workers with machines or cheaper humans probably depends on the nature of the manufacturing and the relative cost-benefit comparison between the two. It's notable that in most cases they have gone the machine route. Those decisions were based on present and past technology.

However, in the long run, machines get cheaper and more sophisticated and they become more efficient in a higher percentage of scenarios. Not that far down the road, you won't be able to find a human in any country willing to work cheap enough to be cheaper than a machine, at which point globalization will be moot. This will be especially true with the development of cheaper energy, such as more efficient solar panels or, farther down the line, fusion.

Eventually - in this century, not the next - manufacturing will be done virtually all by machines. It won't matter who owns them or where they are except for the critical issue of which government the owners are paying taxes to. But the end result will be the same everywhere: very inexpensive manufactured goods, and no jobs for humans making any of it.

Taxes & regulation are assertion of a higher level of ownership, ownership by the People. It's a sort of eminent domain.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
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If globalization was hurting America, our GDP would be falling. If GDP is rising, but middle class is not benefitting, that's an internal political problem, not a global one.
it's both, you can not declare economic policy and society are separate and can only be addressed individually. Well, you can but, it's pretty stupid to do. Kinda like our current policy. The point is neither exists in a vacuum and focusing economic policy on solely increasing GDP in just more "trickle down" bs.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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it's both, you can not declare economic policy and society are separate and can only be addressed individually. Well, you can but, it's pretty stupid to do. Kinda like our current policy. The point is neither exists in a vacuum and focusing economic policy on solely increasing GDP in just more "trickle down" bs.
If you increase GDP through globalization, you can redistribute some of the gains to those negatively impacted by it and still be better off. Failure to do so is a problem with domestic politics, not globalization.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
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That's nonsense. There are not enough homes for every young couple to have one, period. Increasing the cash in everyone's pocket just means that the price for every home goes up by exactly $216k. I'm a proponent of UBI too, but you can't pitch a seriously flawed scenario like that to get people on board with the idea. That's counter-productive.

I can't see how that applies in the US, which has a vast amount of land available. It might be true in more crowded countries, but the US has 1/8 of the population density of Western Europe, for example. If there's a shortage of homes, it's partly a political choice.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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I'm posting late in this tepid cesspit of a thread. OP, you do realize that without globalization, the US would not have been a superpower, let alone one of the most dominant ones, right? It was literally globalization that built this country, and then it was globalization that enabled the massive financial growth that the US achieved post WWII, and it was that growth that gave the American middle class its gilded age. Greedy assholes is what has undermined the American workers.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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When the US is the only developed country in the world that allows health care costs to be:
A. Cost to employer instead of the government, and
B. Three times more expensive at $20,000 for a family policy, as much as several workers cost to hire in most of the world, even before we get to that employee's salary,
Is it the fault of globalization or domestic political corruption and the people who vote for these corrupt politicians and judges who enable them?
The reality is the US "working class" made itself too expensive at the ballot box, and at the same ballot box insists that the fruits of outsourcing their own jobs are concentrated and taxed as little as possible. And when it gets exactly what it voted for, it goes looking for someone to blame, Chinese, Mexicans, whoever.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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I mean, if I told you that I would allow you to get paid 40 for one 12 hour day in a week, there is no fucking way you're going to tell me you'll pass. No way.

That's almost the type of shift I was doing back in the 1980's-1990's. I worked two 12hr shifts (weekend) and got paid for 40 hrs. of work. This was an an RN working in an ER. Was glorious.

Spent an entire summer fishing in 1991. My purpose was to enjoy life between weekends.....on weekends, it was attempting to minimize suffering, console grieving family, save a life if I could......you know, the usual and boring nursing crap that intruded into my fishing. ;)

Of course, there were the days during the week I'd work some home health, mostly for friends with family that needed help.

C'est la vie....those were the days. Now, I only have to worry about fishing...no more ER, thank goodness.