Has ATI given up the high end race?

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

Yeah, likely at reasonable costs like the reasonable prices of the GTX 280 and the 8800GTX/Ultra

 

[airhendrix13]

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

Yeah, likely at reasonable costs like the reasonable prices of the GTX 280 and the 8800GTX/Ultra

You didn't read what I said. I said they COULD price their cards reasonably, and the only reason their new high-end cards cost so much is because they've tied up that market.

 

[airhendrix13]

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

Yeah, likely at reasonable costs like the reasonable prices of the GTX 280 and the 8800GTX/Ultra

You didn't read what I said. I said they could LIKELY price their cards reasonably, and the only reason their new high-end cards cost so much is because they've tied up that market.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: airhendrix13

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

Yeah, likely at reasonable costs like the reasonable prices of the GTX 280 and the 8800GTX/Ultra

You didn't read what I said. I said they could LIKELY price their cards reasonably, and the only reason their new high-end cards cost so much is because they've tied up that market.

Not only that, I don't think that a 1.4B GPU is cheap to manufacture, that's why ATi was able to drop the HD 3XXX prices like if the world could end tomorrow and nVidia can't simply because their G92 chip is more expensive to manufacture and doing it simply will stop getting profitable, loosing money in sales is bad for a company.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Extelleron ATI tells us....

Sigh. Based on what we have seen in the last 2 years. None of what you have said holds water.

I'm not saying it's even a bad thing that AMD drops out of the high end market.

However, they have not had a high end gpu in over 2 years and current news sources seem to indicate that they won't this gen or ever again maybe.

Until I see a review of the 48xx from a reliable source it's just paper. Not too mention that even your "rumors" suggest that it's not going to compete with the GT280 so that just reinforces what this thread is about.

Besides a die shrunk 280 would easily make a GT280X2. So that deletes you argument as well.

I truly hope AMD wipes the floor with NVIDIA, as competition is what drives the computer market in our favor. However, I simply will not rely on unfounded rumors. We saw what happened last round with the R600.

A die shrunk 280 gx2? When next christmas when we moved beyond thermal nuclear reactors and $1500 price tag? :laugh:

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

As I said before, nVidia will not be capable of taking two GT200 cores and putting them on a single card anytime soon. TSMC's 55nm process is not enough, and nVidia is not likely to be quick to move to smaller processes given their track record. nVidia is the last one to move to a new process.

Considering the HD 4870 X2 will be faster than the GTX 280, at this point without doubt, I don't think you can say the strategy won't cut it. nVidia can progress, but so can AMD. When 2009 rolls around you will see AMD adopt TSMC's 40nm process and they will likely be able to double performance again while keeping similar die sizes to RV770.

nVidia will not be making a GT200 GX2 at all from what I see. They will likely move to a new architecture in 2009, like AMD will as well with R800, and I am sure that architecture will be multi-GPU.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

As I said before, nVidia will not be capable of taking two GT200 cores and putting them on a single card anytime soon. TSMC's 55nm process is not enough, and nVidia is not likely to be quick to move to smaller processes given their track record. nVidia is the last one to move to a new process.

Considering the HD 4870 X2 will be faster than the GTX 280, at this point without doubt, I don't think you can say the strategy won't cut it. nVidia can progress, but so can AMD. When 2009 rolls around you will see AMD adopt TSMC's 40nm process and they will likely be able to double performance again while keeping similar die sizes to RV770.

nVidia will not be making a GT200 GX2 at all from what I see. They will likely move to a new architecture in 2009, like AMD will as well with R800, and I am sure that architecture will be multi-GPU.

I think you've gong from logical to fanboism.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

As I said before, nVidia will not be capable of taking two GT200 cores and putting them on a single card anytime soon. TSMC's 55nm process is not enough, and nVidia is not likely to be quick to move to smaller processes given their track record. nVidia is the last one to move to a new process.

Considering the HD 4870 X2 will be faster than the GTX 280, at this point without doubt, I don't think you can say the strategy won't cut it. nVidia can progress, but so can AMD. When 2009 rolls around you will see AMD adopt TSMC's 40nm process and they will likely be able to double performance again while keeping similar die sizes to RV770.

nVidia will not be making a GT200 GX2 at all from what I see. They will likely move to a new architecture in 2009, like AMD will as well with R800, and I am sure that architecture will be multi-GPU.

I think you've gong from logical to fanboism.

I find everything that he says quite logical, usually ATi adopts smaller manufacturing processes much faster than nVidia, in many benchmarks in the web (And the leaked ones about the HD 48XX series) , shows that the GTX 280 is almost twice as fast as the 9800GTX which is nice, but still slower than the GX2 in many scenarios, it also shows that the HD 4850 is between 30 and 60% faster than the 9800GTX, so I wouldn't understand why a faster HD 4870X2 couldn't outperform the GTX 280. After all, the performance and specs differences between the HD 4850 and HD 4870 are more remarkably than the previous HD 3850 and the HD 3870 ones. So I guess that calling someone a fanboy is way out of context specially if you don't prove him wrong. I guess we know who the fanboy is...

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
If ATi wants to compete in the high-end market, the X2 strategy won't cut it, atleast not for long. Sure it's easier and cheaper for ATi, but Nvidia is just as capable of doing the same thing and likely at reasonable cost. The only reason Nvidia's new high-end cards cost so much is because there isn't that much competition at that level.

An X2 card will keep ATi in the game for a little while, but they really need something more progressive than that.

Like I've said before, I think the way to go is to research into cooler / energy efficient GPU's, and throwing 2 of the same card into 1 package isn't accomplishing this.

As I said before, nVidia will not be capable of taking two GT200 cores and putting them on a single card anytime soon. TSMC's 55nm process is not enough, and nVidia is not likely to be quick to move to smaller processes given their track record. nVidia is the last one to move to a new process.

Considering the HD 4870 X2 will be faster than the GTX 280, at this point without doubt, I don't think you can say the strategy won't cut it. nVidia can progress, but so can AMD. When 2009 rolls around you will see AMD adopt TSMC's 40nm process and they will likely be able to double performance again while keeping similar die sizes to RV770.

nVidia will not be making a GT200 GX2 at all from what I see. They will likely move to a new architecture in 2009, like AMD will as well with R800, and I am sure that architecture will be multi-GPU.

I think you've gong from logical to fanboism.

How is he being a fanboy?

A. You can't argue that it is possible for nvidia to make a GTX280x2 card. It won't work. There's no way they can make it small enough and lessen its power usage enough to make a X2 card.

B. Even if the 4870 is "only" as fast as a 9800gtx, the 4870x2 will be faster than the GTX280

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy


How is he being a fanboy?

In every way, shape and form :laugh:

A. You can't argue that it is possible for nvidia to make a GTX280x2 card. It won't work. There's no way they can make it small enough and lessen its power usage enough to make a X2 card.

A mobile version of the GT200 series can be made and can be made 2 on a card. However with it's overwhelming lead on ATI now it hardly seems necessary. Of course you could always just run 2 GTs in SLI.

B. Even if the 4870 is "only" as fast as a 9800gtx, the 4870x2 will be faster than the GTX280

The 4870 may not be as fast as a 9800GTX and then the 4870X2 will fall short of a 9800GX2 and the GT200 series.


With the 4870 not coming out until next month and the 4870x2 not even having a release date, they have been out of the high end race for almost 2 years.

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: schneiderguy


How is he being a fanboy?

In every way, shape and form :laugh:

A. You can't argue that it is possible for nvidia to make a GTX280x2 card. It won't work. There's no way they can make it small enough and lessen its power usage enough to make a X2 card.

A mobile version of the GT200 series can be made and can be made 2 on a card. However with it's overwhelming lead on ATI now it hardly seems necessary. Of course you could always just run 2 GTs in SLI.

B. Even if the 4870 is "only" as fast as a 9800gtx, the 4870x2 will be faster than the GTX280

The 4870 may not be as fast as a 9800GTX and then the 4870X2 will fall short of a 9800GX2 and the GT200 series.


With the 4870 not coming out until next month and the 4870x2 not even having a release date, they have been out of the high end race for almost 2 years.

Wreckage you are really one to talk about being a fanboy. :disgust:

If there is one thing I can tell you for sure, it is that the HD 4870 will be faster than the 9800GTX. That's not even a question. There is a reason why the 9800GTX cards are starting to come down in price to the ~$200 level, and there is a reason why nVidia lowered the price of the GTX 260 to $399. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel threatened by the HD 4870.

You're talking about a mobile version of GT200? Since when do 180-240W TDP cards go into notebooks?

Even if the HD 4870 is 10-15% SLOWER than the 9800GTX, the 4870 X2 would still end up around the same speed as the 9800GX2, and thus faster than the GTX 280.

 

[Genx87]

Lets wait until we see actual benchmarks. We heard this same song and dance with the R600. Then the R600 turned out to be a major dud. High power consumption, more heat, and less performance than the competition.

If AMD can get two of their cores to beat a single Nvidia core more power to them, I guess.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

If there is one thing I can tell you for sure, it is that the HD 4870 will be faster than the 9800GTX. That's not even a question.

It's not an answer either, as the card is not out yet, so your claims of performance are meaningless. The 4870 will be slower than a 8600GT.

There is a reason why the 9800GTX cards are starting to come down in price to the ~$200 level,

Because it's an older product that has been replaced even though it's still a faster GPU than anything from it's competitor.

and there is a reason why nVidia lowered the price of the GTX 260 to $399.

Because it's not their high end part.

They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel threatened by the HD 4870.

They don't

You're talking about a mobile version of GT200? Since when do 180-240W TDP cards go into notebooks?

Once again your lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter shines through. You don't just pry a GPU out of a video card and plop it into a notebook. Changes can be made to the GT200 series to make it a mobile version, jut like the G80 and G92.

Even if the HD 4870 is 10-15% SLOWER than the 9800GTX,

Or more. Very last gen.

the 4870 X2 would still end up around the same speed as the 9800GX2, and thus faster than the GTX 280.

No, not really. You are still talking of using 2 GPUs to = 1 GPU. Even then you don't know when it will be available, how well it will work or if it will even be using the same chips.

 

[Genx87]

Makes you wonder about the 4870X2. Will that be vaporware if they havent set a date? Basically a review card for show? Who knows if it takes 3 months to show up what Nvidia will have up their sleeve to counter it.

If it isnt available is it really worth mentioning in regards to performance?

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: schneiderguy


How is he being a fanboy?

In every way, shape and form :laugh:

A. You can't argue that it is possible for nvidia to make a GTX280x2 card. It won't work. There's no way they can make it small enough and lessen its power usage enough to make a X2 card.

A mobile version of the GT200 series can be made and can be made 2 on a card. However with it's overwhelming lead on ATI now it hardly seems necessary. Of course you could always just run 2 GTs in SLI.

B. Even if the 4870 is "only" as fast as a 9800gtx, the 4870x2 will be faster than the GTX280

The 4870 may not be as fast as a 9800GTX and then the 4870X2 will fall short of a 9800GX2 and the GT200 series.


With the 4870 not coming out until next month and the 4870x2 not even having a release date, they have been out of the high end race for almost 2 years.

You have no place to talk about being a fanboi. You are worst than anyone here.

 

[Rhaze]

Originally posted by: Genx87

If AMD can get two of their cores to beat a single Nvidia core more power to them, I guess.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. What is the actual benefit of having a less powerful card but with 1 GPU, vs a, presumably, more powerful card with 2 GPUs. Especially considering the current restriction of doubling up the stand alone GPU using the current process?

I'm not trying to troll.. I really just don't understand why that keeps coming up. Did this same argument surface at the dawn of dual core processors? Is it just some type of straw grasping? =/

/shrug

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Once again your lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter shines through. You don't just pry a GPU out of a video card and plop it into a notebook. Changes can be made to the GT200 series to make it a mobile version, jut like the G80 and G92.

I'm sure you'd love to tell us how you reduce the power consumption of a 240watt chip to around 100 watts without a die shrink or chopping the specs in half? Even at 100 watts that is still too much for a notebook GPU...

I eagerly await your plan to reduce GT200 power consumption by 60% without reducing its performance by the same amount :laugh:

 

[Leon]

What is the actual benefit of having a less powerful card but with 1 GPU, vs a, presumably, more powerful card with 2 GPUs.

Games that actually run at full speed at the time of purchase, instead of waiting 2 months for driver that enables SLI/CF profile. And there is stuttering and problem with low min framerates.
And other issues as well.

Leon

 

[Rhaze]

Originally posted by: Leon

What is the actual benefit of having a less powerful card but with 1 GPU, vs a, presumably, more powerful card with 2 GPUs.

Games that actually run at full speed at the time of purchase, instead of waiting 2 months for driver that enables SLI/CF profile. And there is stuttering and problem with low min framerates.
And other issues as well.

Leon

Thanks for the reply. I can't view that link tho, not here.

So the HD3870x2 used a driver similar to a CF rig with similar scaling? How bad was the launch support? Do we know if the HD4870x2 is using the same software level communication between the GPUs?

 

[Leon]

So the HD3870x2 used a driver similar to a CF rig with similar scaling?

Its still CF, just on one PCB, therefore its succeptable to same issues. However, AMD claims they improved the x2 design on upcoming cards, though I would guess its strictly from performance standpoint with profiles enabled.

Leon

 

[SolMiester]

Extelleron, do you have shares in AMD\ATI, or are you an employee....Either way you are very passionate about ATI cards....LMAO! Your funny....

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Sylvanas

You obviously haven't been reading. ATI does have a high end- thats what the 3870X2 is

You obviously haven't been reading. The 3870 uses two GPUs. So that's not a high end GPU and when matched against two GPUs from NVIDIA (9800GX2) it's not even close.

I suppose we will have to wait until the R700 comes out to see what they truly have planned for the high end.

You cannot seem to grasp the concept that a high end card is a single card priced at the top of it's bracket that you put into a single slot and it works- thats what the X2 does and IS a high end card, we are not talking about GPU's here. AMD has obviously taken the direction in which smaller GPU's that have better yeilds area more cost effective solution for them than one monolithic GPU like Nvidia- both methods achieve the same purpose.

Games that actually run at full speed at the time of purchase, instead of waiting 2 months for driver that enables SLI/CF profile. And there is stuttering and problem with low min framerates.
And other issues as well.

That affects ALL Multi-GPU configs (SLI, Crossfire, GX2 cards) not just the X2. I recently played through Mass Effect on max with a few more ini tweak for more visuals and it was usually always in the 40fps+ range if not at the framerate cap most of the time. One must remember in the vast majority of cases Crossfire/SLI perform exceptionally and it is only in the few limited cases where it does not- I have never encountered a scenario where a game has become unplayable due to Crossfire being enabled. I would much rather enable Crossfire and max out the visuals in a game and have it play at smoother higher fps than be stuck with a single GPU- thats just me (I have never noticed any 'microstutter') :/.

 

[rmed64]

Ive been with Nvidia for the last few generations of cards, and I can easily say with confidence that ATI is doing the right thing. There is no place for $600 + cards when a card at $400-$450 (9800GX2) can perform the same or better.

The GTX280 is a big ugly chip, they need to shrink it and make affordable derivatives as soon as possible or ATI will steal the mid end market right from them. The 4850 at $199 is going to be a steal.

Then again I dont really care anyway. There are no games that I want to get or play anytime soon that will stress the 9600GSO card I will be getting soon for $100.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy
I eagerly await your plan to reduce GT200 power consumption by 60% without reducing its performance by the same amount :laugh:

You're gonna be waiting a while.

 

[Swampthing]

honestly why bother competing in the high end, that's not the area you make money. The majority of the money is made on integrated and low to mid range cards. Why focus all your time on the niche enthusiast market that's VERY small comparitively speaking. I don't think AMD's offering is going to be anything special at all but it will be cheaper.