Has ATI given up the high end race?

[thilanliyan]

It's more for a halo effect i suppose. If you have the best card period then it's theoretically more likely your other cards are just as good...I think that applies to the less informed customers though. Most on this forum will probably read many reviews before buying a card rather than just looking for the company with the halo card.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rhaze

Originally posted by: Genx87

If AMD can get two of their cores to beat a single Nvidia core more power to them, I guess.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. What is the actual benefit of having a less powerful card but with 1 GPU, vs a, presumably, more powerful card with 2 GPUs. Especially considering the current restriction of doubling up the stand alone GPU using the current process?

I'm not trying to troll.. I really just don't understand why that keeps coming up. Did this same argument surface at the dawn of dual core processors? Is it just some type of straw grasping? =/

/shrug

Performance\watt is rather good to compare between competition. AMD's solution may best a single core GPU but at the cost of higher power consumption and more heat. The bottom line is for a gamer this isnt a big deal. But it tells a story about the architecture. The Nvidia side of things would be more scalable and have more headroom to work with compared to the competition.

 

[BFG10K]

I think you're not realizing that just because you don't have the absolute fastest card made, doesn't mean you aren't making a highend card. Or were you saying that nVidia made no highend cards, while the X1900XTX was the fastest card available?

No, what I?m saying is the 3870 X2 is a dual-card solution and hence inherently inferior to a single card like the 8800 Ultra that provides comparable but more consistent performance and compatibility.

Only inferior in gaming scenarios in which the X2 didn't scale properly or when it had driver issues with a game (Quake Wars for example). With recent drivers optimizations, the HD 3870 has been performing so close to the 8800GT that I couldn't imagine why an X2 with it's faster core clock cannot outperform a single GTX which isn't much faster than a 8800GT.

Close to the 8800 GT in the handful of cherry-picked games reviewers use so of course they?ll work to iron out the kinks given those situations have the most visibility. But even then you can spot problems, plus there are plethora of games out there that aren?t benchmarked.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Genx87
AMD's solution may best a single core GPU but at the cost of higher power consumption and more heat.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com...clocked-review-19.html
The GTX 280 consumes more power than the 9800GX2. If the rumours are true a 4870x2 will consume less power and be faster than the 280. I think it was Tweaktown that said that 4850 CF is faster than the 280 but in which circumstances I don't know.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Over in the 48x0 thread one of our own members has gotten a hold of two 4850's and has started benching them in Crossfire. In Crysis (the only bench he's posted so far) they are significantly faster then the GTX280. I'm pretty confident AMD is going to be able to compete on the highend. Considering that the bench was run at 1920x1200, I imagine that the 4870's in Crossfire will absolutely run away from the GTX280 given their huge memory bandwidth advantage over the 4850 which should come into play at higher resolutions. Also, considering that 2 4850's cost about 2/3 what a single GTX280 costs, I think they'll compete just fine.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Only inferior in gaming scenarios in which the X2 didn't scale properly or when it had driver issues with a game (Quake Wars for example). With recent drivers optimizations, the HD 3870 has been performing so close to the 8800GT that I couldn't imagine why an X2 with it's faster core clock cannot outperform a single GTX which isn't much faster than a 8800GT.

Close to the 8800 GT in the handful of cherry-picked games reviewers use so of course they?ll work to iron out the kinks given those situations have the most visibility. But even then you can spot problems, plus there are plethora of games out there that aren?t benchmarked.

Are you implying that Anandtech does cherry picked benchmarks to favor a card over the other?
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3334&p=11 <<Look from here and the next pages, the 8800GT is just 2fps ahead of the HD 3870 in Crysis across most resolutions, heck, even in Bioshock, the HD 3870 outperforms the 8800GTX, and that's in the GTX 280 review, so yeah, Anandtech for sure cherry picked the games to make the old HD 3870 look better :roll:

 

[Leon]

Also, considering that 2 4850's cost about 2/3 what a single GTX280 costs, I think they'll compete just fine.

Will they compete with 2 GTX 280? And no, if you bring price/performance in this thread, you already lost. High end was never about best price. Never will be. QX9650 is $1000, 8800 Ultra debuted at $800 and Lamborghini Reventon is $1.5 million. Are these products provide best performance per dollar spent? HELL NO. But as long as they are the best, some people will buy them.

Wake me up when (and if, months from now) 2 4870x2 will beat 2 (or 3?) GTX 280. Until then, there is no competition in high end market.

Leon

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Leon

Also, considering that 2 4850's cost about 2/3 what a single GTX280 costs, I think they'll compete just fine.

Will they compete with 2 GTX 280? And no, if you bring price/performance in this thread, you already lost. High end was never about best price. Never will be. QX9650 is $1000, 8800 Ultra debuted at $800 and Lamborghini Reventon is $1.5 million. Are these products provide best performance per dollar spent? HELL NO. But as long as they are the best, some people will buy them.

Wake me up when (and if, months from now) 2 4870x2 will beat 2 (or 3?) GTX 280. Until then, there is no competition in high end market.

Leon

If you have unlimited money then go ahead and buy 3x GTX 280 but for most people money is an issue (even though I could afford it I would NEVER buy 3x 280) so price does come into play, and when you consider the cost of 2x 4850 vs GTX 280 it's very good.

PS. Lamborghini Reventon is not the best it's just very exclusive.

 

[Leon]

If you have unlimited money then go ahead and buy 3x GTX 280 but for most people money is an issue

Then why are you posting in the thread titled "high end race" ? Name me a period in history when high end video product was the leader in performance / $

Perhaps you should create a new thread titled "AMD finally competes in mid range market" :laugh:

Leon

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Leon
Then why are you posting in the thread titles "high end race" ? Name me a period in history when high end video product was the leader in performance / $
Leon

Possibly when the 8800GTXGTS came out? It absolutely destroyed everything at the time so if you count "fps/$" it might have been the best performance/$.

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: Leon

If you have unlimited money then go ahead and buy 3x GTX 280 but for most people money is an issue

Then why are you posting in the thread titled "high end race" ? Name me a period in history when high end video product was the leader in performance / $

Perhaps you should create a new thread titled "AMD finally competes in mid range market" :laugh:

Leon

AMD does compete in the high end market though- thats what you are ignoring- Crossfire is a High end technology, a 4870X2 is a High end card. ATI's High end solution is a Crossfire configuration, it may be hard for some of you to comprehend it NOT being a single GPU but that is the way we are going.

'High End' GTX280 SLI but that is hardly the most intelligent choice in the market- besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU- there comes a point where it is merely a matter stupidity to throw away needless amounts of money on supposed 'High end' gear when the same can be achieved for a lower price....I'd be willing to bet 4x 3850 would not require a 1200watt PSU- that would still be high end and offer performance on par with as good as you are going to get, and still be cheaper.

 

[Leon]

Possibly when the 8800GTXGTS came out?

When 8800GTX came out ($649), I could buy 2 X1900XT for $200 - $250 at bargain sites, saving $200 and getting (slightly) better performance to boot (at the expense of CF/SLI associated problems). Similar situation today, except GTX 280, being evolutionary product, does not excite people as much as world first DX10 8800 series.

Leon

 

[Leon]

besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU

This is absolute horshit and you know it. I've ran 2 8800 Ultras with Q6600 on Corsair 650W TX ($70 AR at buy.com), without any problem, and kill-a-watt meter never exceeding 600W (at the wall!). GTX 280 is using 15w more (load) and significally less at idle. Do the math.

There are countless reviews out there that show just how little power even ultra high end systems draw. Here is one. Add 220W for 2nd GTX 280 (absolute worst case scenario), and you end up with 550-600W....any quality $80 PS will handle the load.

Leon

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: Leon

besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU

This is absolute horshit and you know it. I've ran 2 8800 Ultras with Q6600 on Corsair 650W TX ($70 AR at buy.com), without any problem, and kill-a-watt meter never exceeding 600W (at the wall!). GTX 280 is using 15w more (load) and significally less at idle. Do the math.

There are countless reviews out there that show just how little power even ultra high end systems draw. Here is one. Add 220W for 2nd GTX 280 (absolute worst case scenario), and you end up with 550-600W....any quality $80 PS will handle the load.

Leon

We are not talking about the G80, GTX280 SLI consumes twice that of G80 GTX SLI at a gas guzzling 508watts...I wouldn't want to see you're 'High end' Tri SLI system.

We had two GeForce GTX 280s on hand and a plethora of SLI bridges, so we of course had to run them in SLI. Now remember that a single GTX 280 uses more power than a GeForce 9800 GX2, and thus two of them is going to use a lot of power. It was so much power in fact that our OCZ EliteXStream 1000W power supply wasn't enough. While the SLI system would boot and get into Windows, we couldn't actually complete any benchmarks. All of the power supplies on the GTX 280 SLI certified list are at least 1200W units. We didn't have any on hand so we had to rig up a second system with a separate power supply and used the second PSU to power the extra GTX 280 card. A 3-way SLI setup using GTX 280s may end up requiring a power supply that can draw more power than most household circuits can provide.

 

[Leon]

We are not talking about the G80, GTX280 SLI consumes twice that of G80 GTX SLI at a gas guzzling 508watts

First of all, G80 SLI power use data is not even there, please check your vision
8800GT is NOT G80

Also ( I am pointing this again for extra self-pwnage) you said:

besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU

Yet your OWN link shows total system power use of 508W for GTX 280 SLI system. Contradict yourself much? If 1200W Power Supply had trouble handling 508W load, the problem is elsewhere....hopefully I dont have to explain you that.

Leon

 

[Sylvanas]

First of all, G80 SLI power use data is not even there, please check your vision
8800GT is NOT G80

I think you need a vision checkup, 8800GTX SLI power consumption is there on the chart I linked 256.2w.

Yet your OWN link shows total system power use of 508W for GTX 280 SLI system. Contradict yourself much? LOL?

Again, you didn't even read the review here what AT did to run the SLI system:

We didn't have any on hand so we had to rig up a second system with a separate power supply and used the second PSU to power the extra GTX 280 card.

Now that I see you edited your post to cover up you're inaccuracies I rest my case. Here is something for you to read again.

besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU

This is absolute horshit and you know it.

From AT:

It was so much power in fact that our OCZ EliteXStream 1000W power supply wasn't enough. While the SLI system would boot and get into Windows, we couldn't actually complete any benchmarks.

 

[Leon]

I think you need a vision checkup, 8800GTX SLI power consumption is there on the chart I linked 256.2w.

I am quoting this just so you cannot change your post.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3334&p=9

8000GTX is 256.2, yes, EXCEPT IS NOT SLI, its for single 8800GTX

Again, you didn't even read the review here what AT did to run the SLI system:

Let me ask you a question Sylvanas:

If 1200W Power Supply cannot handle 508W load, is it because:

A. GTX280 magically draws more power
B. Problem with power supply itself

Please answer.

Thanks

 

[Sylvanas]

I am quoting this just so you cannot change your post.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3334&p=9

8000GTX is 256.2, yes, EXCEPT IS NOT SLI, its for single 8800GTX

My mistake. That still does not justify the obscenely high power consumption of the GTX280+SLI.

Let me ask you a question Sylvanas:

If 1200W Power Supply cannot handle 508W load, is it because:

A. GTX280 magically draws more power
B. Problem with power supply itself

Please answer.

Thanks

I am not here to answer question on power supplies, I am simply noting that AT had problems running GTX280 SLI on their normal testbed which has handled previous reviews fine. If I were to respond, that would lend to the conclusion that if the only common denominator that has changed is the graphics card, it would be the added load the graphics card has on the PSU that is causing the instability, AT actually solved this issue by using another PSU in conjunction with the first and it worked fine which only adds weight to the obvious conclusion that a 1000w PSU was not enough as has been stated above.

 

[schneiderguy]

Did wreckage get banned?

 

[Leon]

I am not here to answer question on power supplies

Of course, because you have no answer. Instead of the only logical explanation, you blame video card, intsead of clearly faulty power supply.

That still does not justify the obscenely high power consumption of the GTX280+SLI.

508w is obscenely high?

In the related news, QX9770! + 2 280 GTX work just fine on 850W Coolermaster. Its magic, I tell you!

Leon

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: Leon

I am not here to answer question on power supplies

Of course, because you have no answer. Instead of the only logical explanation, you blame video card, intsead of clearly faulty power supply.

That still does not justify the obscenely high power consumption of the GTX280+SLI.

508w is obscenely high?

In the related news, QX9770! + 2 280 GTX work just fine on 850W Coolermaster. Its magic, I tell you!

Leon

Yes, 508w is alot to be chugging down, when technology should be improving and manufacturing processes supposedly getting smaller and having less power consumption...in some respect we are going backwards as evident with the GTX280. As AT stated: " All of the power supplies on the GTX 280 SLI certified list are at least 1200W units" which would lend to the consensus that in fact you do need a very large PSU to run these cards in SLI- especially as this is you're definition of 'High end' therefore we should also consider Tri-SLI which will consume even more power than is reasonable.

 

[Leon]

All of the power supplies on the GTX 280 SLI certified list are at least 1200W units" which would lend to the consensus that in fact you do need a very large PSU to run these cards in SLI

Sylvanas, are you being intentionally stupid or just trolling? I just proved that quality 850W PS handles the highest end cpu and 2 GTX 280 (with 300W to spare) and all you can do is cling to Nvidia recommended spec, which is specifically overstates actual requirements so consumers buying shit like this wont get burned.

I suggest you do research on actual vs stated power supply performance. Our own PS subforum is a good start.

Leon

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: Leon

All of the power supplies on the GTX 280 SLI certified list are at least 1200W units" which would lend to the consensus that in fact you do need a very large PSU to run these cards in SLI

Sylvanas, are you being intentionally stupid or just trolling? I just proved that quality 850W PS handles the highest end cpu and 2 GTX 280 (with 300W to spare) and all you can do is cling to Nvidia recommended spec, which is specifically overstates actual requirements so consumers buying shit like this wont get burned.

I suggest you do research on actual vs stated power supply performance. Our own PS subforum is a good start.

Leon

When I buy a Power supply, I would want a guarantee that it actually works, I don't want to chance it that maybe this 850w will work and then maybe this 1000w that AT used will not- so yes I would like to have a guarantee that my $1200+ investment is actually going to power up unlike what happened with AT- after all price is no object right? Earlier you mentioned that performance is at the cost of price if you want high end, well, the highest you can go is Tri-SLI so would you like to provide a link to a 800w PSU running TRi-SLI GTX280;s and Quad etc?

You're prolonged bickering is not useful to the forum and this thread, I would not be surprised if it is locked soon. I seem to be talking to a brick wall in this regard.

 

[Leon]

I seem to be talking to a brick wall in this regard.

Indeed. Lets summarize

You claimed that:

We are not talking about the G80, GTX280 SLI consumes twice that of G80 GTX SLI

I think you need a vision checkup, 8800GTX SLI power consumption is there on the chart I linked 256.2w.

Despite your own graphs showing completely opposite

besides, many reviews had trouble running two in SLI without a 1200watt PSU

While in fact, AT unit was the only one having problems, and many other reviewers not having any problems, even with 800w units. The data is very consistent - with 2 GPU's and Quad, the power use is ~550w, well within the range of decent sub $100 power supply.

You are right, there is nothing further to add. The correct term here is "self-pwned".

Leon

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas
I would not be surprised if it is locked soon.

A very good idea.

*click*