Not really. I am correct that all opinions are not of equal value or weight. That refers to your remark about my way or the highway. If I assumed your position, unstated, was anti gay marriage, I simply made a mistake. I have no need for you to be wrong. I hope, in fact you are not a bigot. A bigot cannot see the possibility he is wrong. In this case I can.
Not really. I am correct that all opinions are not of equal value or weight. That refers to your remark about my way or the highway. If I assumed your position, unstated, was anti gay marriage, I simply made a mistake. I have no need for you to be wrong. I hope, in fact you are not a bigot. A bigot cannot see the possibility he is wrong. In this case I can.
Hehe, my point is that everybody else who opposes gay marriage is pretty much like you. They are somewhat more sophisticated about it though. You let your bigotry hang right out in day light. And it's probably really better that way. All I have been saying is that the prejudice against gays amounts to nothing more than exactly what you say, a feeling that they are disgusting.
What you fail to understand, however, is that that feeling of disgust is irrational in nature. You have no control over what it is you feel. It controls you, not the other way round. When you and bigots like you want to make law you become dangerous. Disgust is in your mind. It's not out there somewhere. It's like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If something appears disgusting to you it's because you have disgusting feelings inside. Those feelings are who you are. And they make you disgusting. Can you see that what you feel, is what you are. If you feel disgust you are living in that disgust. But don't worry if you don't get it. There's little chance you will. It's coming at you completely from out of the dark.
We learn disgust by being disgusting little children, not that we ever really were.
Our disgust tells us we have a disease.
The way you understand the world is completely up side down. It makes learning tough.
What is bad is disgusting and what is disgusting is bad. This is how simple-minded we are.
My reason for posting the remark was to point out the relative value of others' opinions with respect to different viewpoints. Given the set of opinions of two individuals, the only way both will agree on everything is if both minds are the same.
As for bigotry, I am one of those who attempts to avoid such behavior, yet acknowledges the possibility of failure. In addition, given an opinion in which I strongly believe, odds are extreme stubborness will come off as bigotry.
Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam? I would say that is quite unnatural. But on the contrary, if something does disgust you, does that make you disgusting and diseased as well?
FelixDeCat
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2000
- 31,235
- 2,779
- 126
Besidis, I find it rather hypocritical of someone who opposes same-sex marriage to be condoning polygamy.[/quote]
But what if the woman wants more than a husband, maybe a female also. Or the same with the guy, what if he wants a husband to go along with his wife. Who the heck are you to deny these people of their rights? And don't go citing past examples as they have no bearing here. This a new age, not the caveman times you like to think it is.
KK[/quote]
The 60´s are over ... get used to it! Besides I ask myself how you would try to rearrange laws concerning:
-divorce
-custody
-alimony payment
-taxes
-succession
They all base on the social institutions of marriage and family ... I don´t want to forbid anyone to live how he/she wishes to. But these has to be seen in practical cohesions ... not personal motivations. And I don´t get why the american administration should be bothered with problems, that could easily be solved in a swinger-club ...
Besidis, I find it rather hypocritical of someone who opposes same-sex marriage to be condoning polygamy.[/quote]
But what if the woman wants more than a husband, maybe a female also. Or the same with the guy, what if he wants a husband to go along with his wife. Who the heck are you to deny these people of their rights? And don't go citing past examples as they have no bearing here. This a new age, not the caveman times you like to think it is.
KK[/quote]
The 60´s are over ... get used to it! Besides I ask myself how you would try to rearrange laws concerning:
-divorce
-custody
-alimony payment
-taxes
-succession
They all base on the social institutions of marriage and family ... I don´t want to forbid anyone to live how he/she wishes to. But these has to be seen in practical cohesions ... not personal motivations. And I don´t get why the american administration should be bothered with problems, that could easily be solved in a swinger-club ...
Sorry didn´t meen to aggravate my opinion by posting it twice 
... just have to get used to this ... system
... just have to get used to this ... system 
"Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam?"
I didn't say. I am not the issue.
"I would say that is quite unnatural."
There is a tendency to want to equate uncommon with unnatural especially where disgust is concerned because disgust is always looking for an object on which to project. It's terribly difficult to get to the real feelings of disgust because real disgust, as I said, involves traumatic experience(s) where you were tho object of disgust. Those memories are tremendously painful. It's the source of pain that also drives people to hurt or want to hurt gays.
"But on the contrary, if something does disgust you, does that make you disgusting and diseased as well?"
Why is that not obvious. But remember, a bigot reacts to his bigotry and uses it as a compass of truth. By doing so he is acting on his insanity. A person who begins to understand how he is constructed, who understands the influence of unconscious factors on his opinion can begin to practice restraint, and self examination. Disgust is a sign he can use to direct him toward his own inner problem. He can feel his disgust not as truth but as sign post and symptom. In this way he can begin the process of stopping the automatic identification that controls sympathy for his bigoted opinion and see himself as having a disease. And the tolerance that develops for others extends to yourself since how you treat others is exactly how you treat yourself, that self that was called disgusting.
There would be no point in arguing with bigots if there were absolutely no chance at all that they will ever see. It just isn't something that's automatic. And the cure means a part of you, you have identified with and admired, falsely, has to die. It's painful but so much better to be free, no?
I didn't say. I am not the issue.
"I would say that is quite unnatural."
There is a tendency to want to equate uncommon with unnatural especially where disgust is concerned because disgust is always looking for an object on which to project. It's terribly difficult to get to the real feelings of disgust because real disgust, as I said, involves traumatic experience(s) where you were tho object of disgust. Those memories are tremendously painful. It's the source of pain that also drives people to hurt or want to hurt gays.
"But on the contrary, if something does disgust you, does that make you disgusting and diseased as well?"
Why is that not obvious. But remember, a bigot reacts to his bigotry and uses it as a compass of truth. By doing so he is acting on his insanity. A person who begins to understand how he is constructed, who understands the influence of unconscious factors on his opinion can begin to practice restraint, and self examination. Disgust is a sign he can use to direct him toward his own inner problem. He can feel his disgust not as truth but as sign post and symptom. In this way he can begin the process of stopping the automatic identification that controls sympathy for his bigoted opinion and see himself as having a disease. And the tolerance that develops for others extends to yourself since how you treat others is exactly how you treat yourself, that self that was called disgusting.
There would be no point in arguing with bigots if there were absolutely no chance at all that they will ever see. It just isn't something that's automatic. And the cure means a part of you, you have identified with and admired, falsely, has to die. It's painful but so much better to be free, no?
See, the imagery is in your mind. You have to imagine to feel your disgust. You want me to imagine so I can feel mine so that we can agree that our irrational feelings provide a solid footing for some truth to our bigoted opinion. You believe that all there is to truth is some commonly held negative reaction to some imagined event. But the garbage man passes our at the perfume counter.
If you didn't feel your disgust you wouldn't talk the way you do using emotionally loaded language:
It does is it is taught in the schools as being common or not uncommon. There is no reason I can see why that fact isn't obvious anyway to most people. You are still suffering from the propaganda that you can teach people to be gay. What we hopefully would like to teach is that hating gays is sick. They are as natural as you or I and born gay. They have as much right to be who they are as you do to be who you are provided nobody violates others rights.
You are trying to justify your own bigotry because you are ashamed to admit what you are. You have to choose between a needless shame and continuing to be dangerous to yourself and others. The whole south had to do this over racial bigotry. The process isn't complete, but well under way. If half a nation can do it, so can you. Don't baby yourself so. Stand up and grow. Sing a few rounds of 'I once was lost but now I'm found.'
So if gay marriage is allowed, then who is to say where the line is drawn? Who here is sanctimonious enough to make the distinction of what is right and wrong for the people? Moonbeam? If you are so unopposed to gay marriage does that also go for incest? I mean what 2 consenting people do in thier own house is their own business right? who is the goverment to tell them they are wrong?
Why do bigots come late to the table expecting to eat. Yoy will have to eat leftovers. Your points have all been adressed in this and the many other recent threads on this subject. Go and read a bit.
""But on the contrary, if something does disgust you, does that make you disgusting and diseased as well?"
Why is that not obvious."
Perhaps because it's not true?
""Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam?"
I didn't say. I am not the issue. "
Oh but you are the issue. Your opinion is the issue here. That is what we are discussing. After all that talk of what is in your mind, you seem to not be able to mention what is in yours. Is that because you are disgusted by it or are afraid it will support my side of the argument? Don't be afraid to admit mistakes and change your mind Moonbeam, no one said you had to be right and have all the answers to start with to be respected.
Fact is, disgust is not solely in your mind. It's your reaction to your environment and a normal one at that. (in some cases) Your opinion that finding anything disgusting makes you out to be ill is a ridiculous one. In fact in some cases the opposite is true. If you didn't find certain harmful things in your environment disgusting, ingesting them or coming into contact with them can make you ill.
Not finding anything at all disgusting would be a diseased state of mind. Robotic and unfeeling, what kind of existance is that?
Why is that not obvious."
Perhaps because it's not true?
""Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam?"
I didn't say. I am not the issue. "
Oh but you are the issue. Your opinion is the issue here. That is what we are discussing. After all that talk of what is in your mind, you seem to not be able to mention what is in yours. Is that because you are disgusted by it or are afraid it will support my side of the argument? Don't be afraid to admit mistakes and change your mind Moonbeam, no one said you had to be right and have all the answers to start with to be respected.
Fact is, disgust is not solely in your mind. It's your reaction to your environment and a normal one at that. (in some cases) Your opinion that finding anything disgusting makes you out to be ill is a ridiculous one. In fact in some cases the opposite is true. If you didn't find certain harmful things in your environment disgusting, ingesting them or coming into contact with them can make you ill.
Not finding anything at all disgusting would be a diseased state of mind. Robotic and unfeeling, what kind of existance is that?
Every single time I see homosexuals displaying affection for one another, I'm disgusted. Sometimes I'm disgusted just by the sight of them...Eddie Murphy in BHC comes to mind. But I realize that my disgust shouldn't somehow dictate what should and shouldn't be. I'm sure there are those who are disgusted at interracial marriages...or just watching a black guy and white girl kissing. Should they be outlawed? Of course not. The fact that they are disgusting to people is beside the point. Are laws made and passed on the basis of how much they disgust people?
You know I did address this in another thread and never really got a distinctive answer....just for fun why don't you or another person of your like mind reiterate the points? thank you.
I have subscribed to this topic so when you answer I'll know it, and be sure to read it.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Even two women? Ever watched Bound? How about that Denise Richards movie? To each his own, I guess.
I'm with you 100% on that. It's the same way I feel about abortion. I don't like it personally, but I don't have the right to impose my views on others. We do not have the right to play God with others' lives.
Nice, name calling.
Seriously though. Think about this. If you feel repulsed by anything then you are called phobic, a bigot. If you don't throw a billion dollars at the the poor you are unfeeling.
It seems that the liberal ideology is "think as we do or you are defective".
Since I can't force myself to love the gay lifestyle and the photos of abortion make me ill, may I get my entitlement check now?
E: ""But on the contrary, if something does disgust you, does that make you disgusting and diseased as well?"
M: Why is that not obvious."
E: Perhaps because it's not true?
M: You cannot know a truth you haven't experienced. Becausae you have never had to explore your own bigotry does not mean that others have not. I mentioned how many times that this stuff all comes at you from the dark. Your bigotry prevents you from seeing. You can see this if you try to rationally explain why gays are disgusting. You will go round and round in a circle just like you are still doing. You are a fish that's been hooked circling the boat. You are on the side that want's to ban gay marriage by constitutional ammendment. You need to have a rational, not a circular case for that. Gays are disgusting because you are disgusted by gays. Simple irrational bigotry. And don't try and tell me I'm pushing gay marriage. I will rely on the supreme court to rule rationally via equal protection, like they did with slavery. The logic is ineluctable and inexorable wonce you get past your bigotry.
e: ""Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam?"
M: I didn't say. I am not the issue. "
E: Oh but you are the issue.
M: No you want to think I'm the issue.
E: Your opinion is the issue here.
I didn't express an opinion, I stated a fact which you are free to argue. I gave the definition of bigot and showed how it applies to you. It is up to you to disprove that fact. A bigot is a person whose opinion is based on irrational prejudice. I asked you to give solid logical reasons for your opinion and you can't. You just reafirm over and over that your opinion is irrational by saying gays are disgusting because you are disgusted by gays.
E: That is what we are discussing.
M: No, we are discussing just what I said, the irrationality of your opin and how that equates to bigotry.
E: After all that talk of what is in your mind, you seem to not be able to mention what is in yours.
M: Try that one again in English, please. Do you mean after all that talk of what's in your mind I seem unable to say what's in mine? If so, I say everything about what's in my mind when I describe yours. Hehe. I wasn't born with wisdom. I used to be a complete fool just like you. I know you cause I know myself. We are all the same. The difference between you and me is that you're ashamed to be a fool and I'm not. Naturally that does make me just a bit less of a fool. I know one more thing than you.
M: Is that because you are disgusted by it or are afraid it will support my side of the argument?
E: Don't be afraid to admit mistakes and change your mind Moonbeam, no one said you had to be right and have all the answers to start with to be respected.
E: Fact is, disgust is not solely in your mind. It's your reaction to your environment and a normal one at that. (in some cases)
M: Ah, so there are some cases, those where you have no bigotry, no doubt, where you can see that disgust isn't normal. a reaction to your environment takes place solely in your mind. You and disgust are one when it's what you're experiencing. You may do little self reflection and have never concidered things in that light before. It takes some time to comprehend.
E: Your opinion that finding anything disgusting makes you out to be ill is a ridiculous one. In fact in some cases the opposite is true. If you didn't find certain harmful things in your environment disgusting, ingesting them or coming into contact with them can make you ill.
M: You are simply repeating the usual circle here. I feel disgusted so what disgust me is digusting. How does this relate to gay marriage. Are we back to the business of risk. What about those who don't find disgusting what you do. When did you become the arbiter of what is disgusting. You are also confusing the gag response, the involuntary vomiting of poisonous food and the deep connection, irrationally, in the olfactory center with the feeling of disgust. Disgust is accompanied by real physiological reactions and is real in and evolutionary in that sense. But it is the dilemna of man that he can learn to be disgusted by anything. It developes before we have brains to think or mitigate the effect. Disgust is irrational and learned early on from others reacting with disgust, toward us. If you don't mind being Pavlov's dog, help yourself. What you can't do is pass off your disgust as rational intelligent thought. You are driving out of control and don't want to see it. And there are others on the road. You owe it to the world to try to have a rational mind, no.
Not finding anything at all disgusting would be a diseased state of mind. Robotic and unfeeling, what kind of existance is that?
Well as we can see it is you who is the robot, and disgust your program. I told you that you are identified with your bigotry. You are proud of it. It provides you with meaning. I told you that to learn, to unlearn, that is, is very much like dying. You can see only the dying, not the other side. You think that if you loose your precious thousand pounds of cabbage you will be empty inside. All I can tell you is that when I lost mine, I found what couldn't be taken. You can't loose what you really are. And what you really are will be a big pleasant surprise. Trust me.
M: Why is that not obvious."
E: Perhaps because it's not true?
M: You cannot know a truth you haven't experienced. Becausae you have never had to explore your own bigotry does not mean that others have not. I mentioned how many times that this stuff all comes at you from the dark. Your bigotry prevents you from seeing. You can see this if you try to rationally explain why gays are disgusting. You will go round and round in a circle just like you are still doing. You are a fish that's been hooked circling the boat. You are on the side that want's to ban gay marriage by constitutional ammendment. You need to have a rational, not a circular case for that. Gays are disgusting because you are disgusted by gays. Simple irrational bigotry. And don't try and tell me I'm pushing gay marriage. I will rely on the supreme court to rule rationally via equal protection, like they did with slavery. The logic is ineluctable and inexorable wonce you get past your bigotry.
e: ""Are you saying nothing disgusts you Moonbeam?"
M: I didn't say. I am not the issue. "
E: Oh but you are the issue.
M: No you want to think I'm the issue.
E: Your opinion is the issue here.
I didn't express an opinion, I stated a fact which you are free to argue. I gave the definition of bigot and showed how it applies to you. It is up to you to disprove that fact. A bigot is a person whose opinion is based on irrational prejudice. I asked you to give solid logical reasons for your opinion and you can't. You just reafirm over and over that your opinion is irrational by saying gays are disgusting because you are disgusted by gays.
E: That is what we are discussing.
M: No, we are discussing just what I said, the irrationality of your opin and how that equates to bigotry.
E: After all that talk of what is in your mind, you seem to not be able to mention what is in yours.
M: Try that one again in English, please. Do you mean after all that talk of what's in your mind I seem unable to say what's in mine? If so, I say everything about what's in my mind when I describe yours. Hehe. I wasn't born with wisdom. I used to be a complete fool just like you. I know you cause I know myself. We are all the same. The difference between you and me is that you're ashamed to be a fool and I'm not. Naturally that does make me just a bit less of a fool. I know one more thing than you.
M: Is that because you are disgusted by it or are afraid it will support my side of the argument?
E: Don't be afraid to admit mistakes and change your mind Moonbeam, no one said you had to be right and have all the answers to start with to be respected.
E: Fact is, disgust is not solely in your mind. It's your reaction to your environment and a normal one at that. (in some cases)
M: Ah, so there are some cases, those where you have no bigotry, no doubt, where you can see that disgust isn't normal. a reaction to your environment takes place solely in your mind. You and disgust are one when it's what you're experiencing. You may do little self reflection and have never concidered things in that light before. It takes some time to comprehend.
E: Your opinion that finding anything disgusting makes you out to be ill is a ridiculous one. In fact in some cases the opposite is true. If you didn't find certain harmful things in your environment disgusting, ingesting them or coming into contact with them can make you ill.
M: You are simply repeating the usual circle here. I feel disgusted so what disgust me is digusting. How does this relate to gay marriage. Are we back to the business of risk. What about those who don't find disgusting what you do. When did you become the arbiter of what is disgusting. You are also confusing the gag response, the involuntary vomiting of poisonous food and the deep connection, irrationally, in the olfactory center with the feeling of disgust. Disgust is accompanied by real physiological reactions and is real in and evolutionary in that sense. But it is the dilemna of man that he can learn to be disgusted by anything. It developes before we have brains to think or mitigate the effect. Disgust is irrational and learned early on from others reacting with disgust, toward us. If you don't mind being Pavlov's dog, help yourself. What you can't do is pass off your disgust as rational intelligent thought. You are driving out of control and don't want to see it. And there are others on the road. You owe it to the world to try to have a rational mind, no.
Not finding anything at all disgusting would be a diseased state of mind. Robotic and unfeeling, what kind of existance is that?
Well as we can see it is you who is the robot, and disgust your program. I told you that you are identified with your bigotry. You are proud of it. It provides you with meaning. I told you that to learn, to unlearn, that is, is very much like dying. You can see only the dying, not the other side. You think that if you loose your precious thousand pounds of cabbage you will be empty inside. All I can tell you is that when I lost mine, I found what couldn't be taken. You can't loose what you really are. And what you really are will be a big pleasant surprise. Trust me.
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