Has Anyone Made a Convincing Argument against Gays getting married yet?

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Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Wheezer

Oh so now you need a study for this? What does it matter? who the hell do you think you are to deny 2 people who are truly in love their right to marry? is that not the same question you are asking all the "bigots"?

Since when is law based on a study? I am sure there are plenty of studies that go against your belief, and point out that homosexual activity is "wrong" & "unnattural"...but then again since these studies go against what you believe you would merely dismiss them as bullsh!t anyway.

Law is almost never based on a study, but based on a proven link between an activity and harm caused to society. Ideally this study would be conducted by an impartial third party organization that uses valid statistical techniques to reach their conclusions.

Find me a study that satisfies those prerequisites and we'll talk. Until then you're just a bigot (but whose views I respect your right to possess) wanting to turn misguided belief into policy. Maintaining said policy, rather.

I would be interested to see a link that proves (or disproves, as I haven't read up on the issue) the dangers of inter-generational familial relationships and intercourse.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Assuming that homosexuality carries risks not associated with heterosexual marriage, do they compare to the risk of dying in child birth? And whether they do or don't what relationship does that have to whether gays should marry. To be fair, there is risk to all sex so should nobody marry. These joke arguments are a cover for bigotry plain and simple, bigotry in search of an excuse. Remove the bigotry and the argument vanishes in thin air.


No Moon this is not about bigotry...you and your blind open mindness have made it this, and since you cannot come to any conclusion other than "people who do not support gay marriage are bigots" that is all you will see.

For some it is not about what they believe is right or wrong...just as your argument is who am I to force my beliefs on you, who are YOU to do the same? Why can't we disagree with you and not be bigots? Is it outside you ablility to concieve that the 2 may not go hand in hand?

For someone who claims to be so enlightend you dissapoint.


 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Assuming that homosexuality carries risks not associated with heterosexual marriage, do they compare to the risk of dying in child birth? And whether they do or don't what relationship does that have to whether gays should marry. To be fair, there is risk to all sex so should nobody marry. These joke arguments are a cover for bigotry plain and simple, bigotry in search of an excuse. Remove the bigotry and the argument vanishes in thin air.


No Moon this is not about bigotry...you and your blind open mindness have made it this, and since you cannot come to any conclusion other than "people who do not support gay marriage are bigots" that is all you will see.

For some it is not about what they believe is right or wrong...just as your argument is who am I to force your beliefs on you who are YOU to do the same? Why can't we disagree with you and not be bigots? Is it outside you ablility to concieve that the 2 may not go hand in hand?

For someone who claims to be so enlightend you dissapoint.

The issue isn't that you find homosexuality wrong, but that you would punish homosexuals for their nature. Discriminate against them and you have a new generation of Jim Crow laws.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Assuming that homosexuality carries risks not associated with heterosexual marriage, do they compare to the risk of dying in child birth? And whether they do or don't what relationship does that have to whether gays should marry. To be fair, there is risk to all sex so should nobody marry. These joke arguments are a cover for bigotry plain and simple, bigotry in search of an excuse. Remove the bigotry and the argument vanishes in thin air.


No Moon this is not about bigotry...you and your blind open mindness have made it this, and since you cannot come to any conclusion other than "people who do not support gay marriage are bigots" that is all you will see.

For some it is not about what they believe is right or wrong...just as your argument is who am I to force my beliefs on you, who are YOU to do the same? Why can't we disagree with you and not be bigots? Is it outside you ablility to concieve that the 2 may not go hand in hand?

For someone who claims to be so enlightend you dissapoint.
I disappoint. That's rich. You won't even read over the threads to see what's been said and you continually raise yesterday's crap. You don't disappoint, you're not even in the game. You can't even formulate the issue. Acourse I know you're just pissed off at being a bigot, and a lazy bigot at that. One thing I can say in your behalf is that if you did read the threads you probably wouldn't see anyway, that your ridiculous and redundant points have all been dealt with.

 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
When humans live consistent with nature we can better focus on the reality therein. All life forms are genetically predisposed to act or react in the manner their genetic makeup dictates. Humans seem to think they can reason outside their genetics. That the chemical production that causes men to act and think like men and women to act and think like women is somehow controlled by the 'family' environment. When the stimuli is contrary to the 'person' the result is confusion. The 'person' reasons at ease within the comfort of the 'persons' natural condition and develops behavioral abnormalities when this does not occur. Ask yourself why do some prefer the company of one person versus another. Why don't all folks have equal comfort with all other folks equally? The stimuli garnered is not the same from each and it does not 'fit' the needs and desires of each equally.
We are conditioned to believe that homosexuality is morally wrong when in fact nature has no problem with it at all.. just human kind. The sexual aspects of homosexual life is not the core issue. The core issue is who likes who and why. From a religious POV I submit the 'sex act' is a function of creation. It feels good to do because humans would rather, if left to their own desires and with out the constant 'parental' input of 'oughts', live with like minded folks be they men or women. We demand marriage as a means of insuring that folks take care of their own issue.
All individuals have the same rights. Forget the chemically induced sexual drive which is the same for all people (with in reason) and focus on the basic desire and comfort some find that may be different than others..
How many men really enjoy going shopping with the wife or significant woman and how many women enjoy working on the car or going hunting? This sorta suggests that the issue is the sex act itself that makes the distinction.. and there really ain't too much of a difference there. It seems to me..
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
Nice post, LR.

Genesys, my bigoted friend, please explain this:

"deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them."

What deficiencies? And I'm still waiting for your report on making love to a man. I know you can if being gay is choice. Go ahead, get turned on by a man. Prove it's choice. Prove there is a deficiency. Prove that should prevent them from getting married. You are nothing but hot air and a bigoted opinion. You have the power to prove your case. Make love to a man, or have the decency to shut your trap. Oh oh, it's choice, it's got to be choice, I can't choose it but it's got to be choice or I'm a bigot. You're not just a bigot. You're dense. :D You make a claim you can prove is true but instead, while you claim it, you prove it's a lie. You can prove your own point, or prove your point is a lie. Pretty lame.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?


again I can point you to studies that show homosexuality to be a bad thing...but since those studies do not go with your views you would dismiss them...so why don't we just base our laws on those studies???? You probably would not like that very well now would you?

no studies that are peer reviewed and scientifically sound. your studies are as valid as those clinical studies touted by the makers of breast enhancement pills.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.

just because bigots like you hate homosexuals for their sexual preference it doesn't mean that THEY are ravaging the country. morons like YOU are.

get it straight.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.

just because bigots like you hate homosexuals for their sexual preference it doesn't mean that THEY are ravaging the country. morons like YOU are.

get it straight.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Fool. I do not hate homosexuals. I know quite a few people that are homo and I dont hate them for some silly reason like sexual preference! If i'm going to hate someone its going to be for reasons of honor or revenge! and no, its liberals who think they know whats best for the country who are ruining it, get it straight!

moonbeam, make sense. quit with the jibber jabber and make a point already. im tired of having to decrypt your posts trying to look for some meaning or substance other than it being just another troll-esc post. what im still waiting for you guys to prove is that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, and then explain why some people quit being homosexual and start being straight [again!] so, go ahead moonbeam, i place the burden of proof on you, make your case and prove your point. but untill you do, quit using your same old lib arguments cause they arent getting you anywhere.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.

just because bigots like you hate homosexuals for their sexual preference it doesn't mean that THEY are ravaging the country. morons like YOU are.

get it straight.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Fool. I do not hate homosexuals. I know quite a few people that are homo and I dont hate them for some silly reason like sexual preference! If i'm going to hate someone its going to be for reasons of honor or revenge! and no, its liberals who think they know whats best for the country who are ruining it, get it straight!

moonbeam, make sense. quit with the jibber jabber and make a point already. im tired of having to decrypt your posts trying to look for some meaning or substance other than it being just another troll-esc post. what im still waiting for you guys to prove is that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, and then explain why some people quit being homosexual and start being straight [again!] so, go ahead moonbeam, i place the burden of proof on you, make your case and prove your point. but untill you do, quit using your same old lib arguments cause they arent getting you anywhere.

you see, you are the fool, JUST because you don't hate homosexuals DOES NOT disprove my argument. ok, so you don't hate homos but guess what, what IS tearing the country apart ISN'T the fact that they are homos but the fact that there ARE people that HATE homo's for what they are. EVEN if it is a CHOICE it still doesn't justify the hatred of gays that we see in this country.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,833
515
126
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.

just because bigots like you hate homosexuals for their sexual preference it doesn't mean that THEY are ravaging the country. morons like YOU are.

get it straight.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Fool. I do not hate homosexuals. I know quite a few people that are homo and I dont hate them for some silly reason like sexual preference! If i'm going to hate someone its going to be for reasons of honor or revenge! and no, its liberals who think they know whats best for the country who are ruining it, get it straight!

moonbeam, make sense. quit with the jibber jabber and make a point already. im tired of having to decrypt your posts trying to look for some meaning or substance other than it being just another troll-esc post. what im still waiting for you guys to prove is that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, and then explain why some people quit being homosexual and start being straight [again!] so, go ahead moonbeam, i place the burden of proof on you, make your case and prove your point. but untill you do, quit using your same old lib arguments cause they arent getting you anywhere.

you see, you are the fool, JUST because you don't hate homosexuals DOES NOT disprove my argument. ok, so you don't hate homos but guess what, what IS tearing the country apart ISN'T the fact that they are homos but the fact that there ARE people that HATE homo's for what they are. EVEN if it is a CHOICE it still doesn't justify the hatred of gays that we see in this country.

I dont know anyone that actually hate's homosexuals, except for the folks that run around calling them homo's.... I don't think this debate is tearing this country aprt, although it does give a good laugh or 2 daily.

 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
EVEN if it is a CHOICE it still doesn't justify the hatred of gays that we see in this country.

that is a sad but true statement.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Since when is law based on a study?

laws should be based on reason. studies when done correctly are based on reason. studies of homosexuals have long shown them to be harmless. so whats your point? reason no good for you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! you call the intensity with which homosexuality and its ensuing debates and [re]actions have ravaged the country harmless?


Originally posted by: Orsorum

However, sexual orientation is an aspect of these people's lives which they cannot control;

ahhh, nature vs nurture. i say nurture, you say nature. i say its a choice and you say its genetic. so, if it is genetic, wouldnt we be able to cure it by using gene therapy or something similar to it to replace or repair the defective gene? i dont think so, they WANT to love someone of the same sex, thats where they feel loved and accepted. deal with it and quit trying to excuse their deficiencies for them.

just because bigots like you hate homosexuals for their sexual preference it doesn't mean that THEY are ravaging the country. morons like YOU are.

get it straight.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Fool. I do not hate homosexuals. I know quite a few people that are homo and I dont hate them for some silly reason like sexual preference! If i'm going to hate someone its going to be for reasons of honor or revenge! and no, its liberals who think they know whats best for the country who are ruining it, get it straight!

moonbeam, make sense. quit with the jibber jabber and make a point already. im tired of having to decrypt your posts trying to look for some meaning or substance other than it being just another troll-esc post. what im still waiting for you guys to prove is that homosexuality is a genetic predisposition, and then explain why some people quit being homosexual and start being straight [again!] so, go ahead moonbeam, i place the burden of proof on you, make your case and prove your point. but untill you do, quit using your same old lib arguments cause they arent getting you anywhere.

My statement was:

"What deficiencies? And I'm still waiting for your report on making love to a man. I know you can if being gay is choice. Go ahead, get turned on by a man. Prove it's choice. Prove there is a deficiency. Prove that should prevent them from getting married. You are nothing but hot air and a bigoted opinion. You have the power to prove your case. Make love to a man, or have the decency to shut your trap. Oh oh, it's choice, it's got to be choice, I can't choose it but it's got to be choice or I'm a bigot. You're not just a bigot. You're dense. You make a claim you can prove is true but instead, while you claim it, you prove it's a lie. You can prove your own point, or prove your point is a lie. Pretty lame."

Just tell me what part was difficult for you to understand and I will attempt to say it more simply." I know you appreciated the depth of my point when you mentioned people, homosexual, going straight. When you have your first gay love affair I'll believe you. And if you had been reading the threads you would know the burden of proof is on you.

 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Just tell me what part was difficult for you to understand and I will attempt to say it more simply." I know you appreciated the depth of my point when you mentioned people, homosexual, going straight. When you have your first gay love affair I'll believe you. And if you had been reading the threads you would know the burden of proof is on you.

ah, but thats why ive reverted the burden of proof back to you. Homosexuals going straight helps support my nurture argument. you have nothing to support your nature argument other than 'thats just the way they are'.
i dont have to have some gay love affair to know i dont like men. why dont you go have a gay love affair and tell me how it goes? tell me what it does for ya? you dont have to have cancer to be able to examine the symptoms. so, conversly, i dont have to try to be gay to know that i dont [or wont] like it.

as for deficiencies, homosexuality is a deficiency in and of itself. it is nothing more than a mental defect.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
Originally posted by: Genesys
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Just tell me what part was difficult for you to understand and I will attempt to say it more simply." I know you appreciated the depth of my point when you mentioned people, homosexual, going straight. When you have your first gay love affair I'll believe you. And if you had been reading the threads you would know the burden of proof is on you.

ah, but thats why ive reverted the burden of proof back to you. Homosexuals going straight helps support my nurture argument. you have nothing to support your nature argument other than 'thats just the way they are'.
i dont have to have some gay love affair to know i dont like men. why dont you go have a gay love affair and tell me how it goes? tell me what it does for ya? you dont have to have cancer to be able to examine the symptoms. so, conversly, i dont have to try to be gay to know that i dont [or wont] like it.

as for deficiencies, homosexuality is a deficiency in and of itself. it is nothing more than a mental defect.

It's just so sad that you don't have the mental capacity to extend your thinking to others. You know you aren't gay. You have always known it. I know I'm not gay, I've always know it even before I knew words for it. I have been interested in girls since kindergarten. I can't and never will ever ever be able to be turned on by a man I know is a man, period simple and final.

No amount of psychoanalysis or aversion therapy is going to change that. I know who I am and have always known. I'm 100% hetero. What I am not, however, is an asshole, at least in this regard. I can credit other people when they tell me the same. If a gay says to me he has always been attracted to guys, I can appreciate where he is comming from. I am not a bigot so I don't need th think it's a lie.

When you come up with this horse sh!t, about gays going straight, I know you are an ignorant putz who believes what he whans to believe. The scientific data all runs the other way. There are people, you know, called bisexual who can swing either way. Those you could turn on to girls.

"as for deficiencies, homosexuality is a deficiency in and of itself. it is nothing more than a mental defect."

You believe this is true because you are a bigot and you are a bigot because you believe this is true. Intelligent, informed, unbigoted people don't. And though you say it over and over it will never be true. You are as ignorant and boxed in by your bigoted religion here as you are on evolution. If anybody is defective it's you. :D Your thoughts run in an endless loop. The Bible says the Bible is true and the Bible says it's true. That's the beginning and end of the story for you. You are incapable of rational thinking. I don't mind as long as there's a chance to expose you as a bigot so more normal people can see your empty shell.



 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
I started a new thread based on this statement, but it was locked because there were already many threads on gay marriage. Here is what I wrote:


In my last thread on this topic, I asked people to give me a convincing argument against gay marriages. Despite their false definitions, I think I got some good reasons.

The issue with the pro-gay marriage crowd is that they came at this topic from an emotional point of view. Their first instance was to compare it to the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Well, the civil rights movement was (mainly) a movement to enforce Federal legislation against bigotry. In fact, the civil rights movement came about as a result of the Civil War, which, again, was fought over states' rights versus federal rights. The federal rights that I'm talking about were written in the Constitution as a result of the internation declaration on the rights of man, one of which was that all men are created equal.

Hence, the emotions that the pro-gay advocates are relying on are based on legal-enforcement precedents.

As for the anti-gay marriage crowd, though their definitions reeks of bias, they stand on firm legal and moral ground. First off, attraction to the same sex is not unnatural. In fact, though it encompasses only 10%-15% of the natural world, it is very much natural. Hence, I would call same-sex attraction a natural aberration because of its minority status and its anti-pro-creationist way of life. Furthermore, gay animals are accepted within their group. In fact, aside from our larger brains, it is our philosophical morals and dogmas that differentiates us other animals. It is our standings (laws, religion, etc...) that makes humans less inclined to accept what is wholly acceptable among other animals. What many fear is while homosexuals enjoy the same declaration on the rights of man, accepting this "natural aberration" would bring us closer to the animals, destroying our morals and dogmas. If gay marriages are allowed to pass as normalcy, what would stop inter-family marriages, pedophilic marriages, inter-species marriages, or even parent-child marriages, simply because of the stated love and affection between the two? Their argument is that this would cause the breakdown of (human) society and reduce us to nothing more than those that slither or walk on all fours.

Is the argument fair? Well, the people will decide on the legality of gay marriages and whether or not it will open the doors to other things. Whether or not the Federal government or the states should be the final judge will make this not unlike the great debates that preceded the American Civil War.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
To attempt to answer your question I have to understand what your question is:

"The issue with the pro-gay marriage crowd is that they came at this topic from an emotional point of view. Their first instance was to compare it to the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Well, the civil rights movement was (mainly) a movement to enforce Federal legislation against bigotry. In fact, the civil rights movement came about as a result of the Civil War, which, again, was fought over states' rights versus federal rights. The federal rights that I'm talking about were written in the Constitution as a result of the internation declaration on the rights of man, one of which was that all men are created equal."

What is the description 'emotional' doing in here. It sounds like you are telling yourself a story by using that word and shaping and distorting the issue more to your liking. Also, there need be no reference to civil rights here. The rights of gays to marry is guaranteed by the Constitution. It's the realization and emotional fear of that that is motivating the other, bigoted, side with their interest in an amendment.

"Hence, the emotions that the pro-gay advocates are relying on are based on legal-enforcement precedents."

There is nothing emotional about an appeal to legal precedent. That is cold legal analysis.

"As for the anti-gay marriage crowd, though their definitions reeks of bias, they stand on firm legal and moral ground."

Your assertion of this does not make it so.

"First off, attraction to the same sex is not unnatural."

This is confusing because in the next sentence you contradict yourself.

"In fact, though it encompasses only 10%-15% of the natural world, it is very much natural.

See what I mean. It is either natural or it isn't.

"Hence, I would call same-sex attraction a natural aberration because of its minority status and its anti-pro-creationist way of life."

You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make your words rational. It is either natural or it is not. We both seem to agree it is naturally 'natural' but not as common as heterosexual orientation. No need to say additionally anything else especially when it introduces your bigotry. There are people who are born infertile or become that way in life. Should we describe these as natural aberrations unworthy of married life? You are again confusing breeding with love. This happens to you because you are propelled to argue in a definable direction, by your bigotry. You need to find a way to introduce a negative value judgment on being gay. Natural aberration and anti-pro creationist is flowery and cute, but a value judgment full of bigotry. There is nothing wrong with people who can't or don't have children. They can and do still love.

"Furthermore, gay animals are accepted within their group. In fact, aside from our larger brains, it is our philosophical morals and dogmas that differentiates us other animals."

Some people like to point out that all of these vary by location and time and have no intrinsic validity or reality at all, merely the delusion of the day. Others would say that all of these things are designed to return us to some previous natural state, that these things aim for a natural law. In the former case homophobia would be subjective and unnatural in the case of the second. The fact that we have philosophy, morals, and law helps you not at all.

"It is our standings (laws, religion, etc...) that makes humans less inclined to accept what is wholly acceptable among other animals."

Really? I would think it was nurture and what you've been trained away from acceptance Far from thinking this is ennobling, many would call this the ultimate in being sick.

"What many fear is while homosexuals enjoy the same declaration on the rights of man, accepting this "natural aberration" would bring us closer to the animals, destroying our morals and dogmas."

Yes, bigotry always has fear at it's root. The fear of being an animal is the fear of being yourself. We were brutalized when we were real and we won't do that again, most of us.

"If gay marriages are allowed to pass as normalcy, what would stop inter-family marriages, pedophilic marriages, inter-species marriages, or even parent-child marriages, simply because of the stated love and affection between the two? Their argument is that this would cause the breakdown of (human) society and reduce us to nothing more than those that slither or walk on all fours."

Exactly, we would just be the disgusting animals we were told we were when we were small. God save us from that. Imagine if his only begotten Son was trying to bring us back to that. Oh, man, wow! :D

"Is the argument fair?"

Well here is where I'm not certain what you mean. Are you asking if you have described the debate in accurate and objective terms? If so, as I have expressed where I disagree. I would ask, "Is what argument fair?". Can you be more specific about your question?

"Well, the people will decide on the legality of gay marriages and whether or not it will open the doors to other things. Whether or not the Federal government or the states should"

It is the courts who should decide the issue and the people who will decide whether they want to institutionalize their bigotry. It will still be bigotry and unjust law even of it does become an amendment.
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
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0
You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make your words rational. It is either natural or it is not. We both seem to agree it is naturally 'natural' but not as common as heterosexual orientation. No need to say additionally anything else especially when it introduces your bigotry. There are people who are born infertile or become that way in life. Should we describe these as natural aberrations unworthy of married life? You are again confusing breeding with love. This happens to you because you are propelled to argue in a definable direction, by your bigotry. You need to find a way to introduce a negative value judgment on being gay. Natural aberration and anti-pro creationist is flowery and cute, but a value judgment full of bigotry. There is nothing wrong with people who can't or don't have children. They can and do still love.

I pointed out earlier that if love were the only interest that the state had in mind when it set bounds for marriage, then it would have permitted us to marry relatives and to marry more than one person. The state (and the Judeo-Christian world) has recognized monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, more than an institution to kindle love or a way to reproduce, as the supreme mechanism to raise children and form strong families and a strong society. Any different mechanism is less than ideal.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,906
6,788
126
Originally posted by: Stonewall
You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make your words rational. It is either natural or it is not. We both seem to agree it is naturally 'natural' but not as common as heterosexual orientation. No need to say additionally anything else especially when it introduces your bigotry. There are people who are born infertile or become that way in life. Should we describe these as natural aberrations unworthy of married life? You are again confusing breeding with love. This happens to you because you are propelled to argue in a definable direction, by your bigotry. You need to find a way to introduce a negative value judgment on being gay. Natural aberration and anti-pro creationist is flowery and cute, but a value judgment full of bigotry. There is nothing wrong with people who can't or don't have children. They can and do still love.

I pointed out earlier that if love were the only interest that the state had in mind when it set bounds for marriage, then it would have permitted us to marry relatives and to marry more than one person. The state (and the Judeo-Christian world) has recognized monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, more than an institution to kindle love or a way to reproduce, as the supreme mechanism to raise children and form strong families and a strong society. Any different mechanism is less than ideal.

There would be no change in the mechanism, right?


 

imported_Papi

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2002
2,413
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Originally posted by: conjur
There have been no convincing arguments about preventing gays from being married.

They key points of contention are:

1) Marriage - the definition (puh-leeze...lame-ass excuse...give them civil unions but don't call it a marrage. Ok, fine, you politically correct bigots)
2) It's against God and the Bible (Who fvcking cares? Not everyone in this country is a Christian. Stop ramming your Christian beliefs down everyone's throat)
3) Next will be polygamy and bestiality (both slippery slope arguments easily refuted)

Soo...that leaves us with....hmm...nothing!

1. Marriage is a religious thing. Basically you are just spitting in the face of religious people.
2. Stop ramming your athiest views on us Christians. I CARE. Once again, marriage is a religious thing, so if you are not religious, you have no reason to get married anyway. You should be arguing that marriage should not be recognized by our gov't because everything religious should be done away with within our gov't.
3. Sometimes slippery slop actually occurs. After all, what's to stop polygamy and bestiality? Your exact arguments can easily be used to allow them.

what about marriges before religion. explain that?

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
126
Law is almost never based on a study, but based on a proven link between an activity and harm caused to society.
no it isn't. sit through a constitutional law class and you'll see that. most laws don't have to have any basis in reality, but only on some rationalizing that the thing sought to cure is actually being cured and needed curing to begin with. its called rational basis scrutiny.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Law is almost never based on a study, but based on a proven link between an activity and harm caused to society.
no it isn't. sit through a constitutional law class and you'll see that. most laws don't have to have any basis in reality, but only on some rationalizing that the thing sought to cure is actually being cured and needed curing to begin with. its called rational basis scrutiny.

Mmm, note to self, go to law school soon.

Can't come soon enough. Stupid undergrad. :(