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Harry Reid "I believe ... that this war is lost"

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The US Military is the wrong tool for the job. It's like using a Phillips screwdriver on a flat screw. You can do it until the Rupture, it still won't work. You will only mess up the tool and make the problem worse.
If you don't like saying "this war is lost" we can say "this war is won" and leave. The military's job is done.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Wouldn't losing a war require a military defeat?

About the only thing we have lost is the will to fight, nothing else.

You evidently have never heard about the fellow who liked to beat his head against the wall because it felt so good when he stopped.

But in the case of GWB, he just makes other people beat their heads against walls---and when they die---they are replaced by someone else.
In the case of Cho---he just killed 32---GWB seems bent on the million.
 
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
My argument was against John's, but you're too stupid to see that.
Actually, it wasn't all that clear, but I apologize for misunderstanding your post. It's about time we agreed about something. :beer: :thumbsup: 😎
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
New on drudge. link
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid said, on the same day US President George W. Bush was giving a speech at an Ohio town hall meeting defending the war on terror.
I don't see how these comments can be anything but harmful, unless you are a terrorist.

Can anyone explain how declaring that our military has 'lost' a war is helpful to the future of America?

By your logic the US due to our overwhelming superiority can pretty much never lose any conflict anywhere, ever. This is obviously false.

You can't be serious. Losing a war takes many forms. I think the easiest one to apply here would be that we are unable to accomplish our objectives. That sounds like a loss to me even though I doubt the insurgents will be launching a counter invasion of Washington DC any time soon. We lost the military battle here... we lost it years ago. Our army is incapable of accomplishing its objective of securing Iraq, and has therefore been defeated.

We have been trying this strategy to win for more then four years now. It has been a colossal failure. When confronted with this failure Bush has decided that we'll just keep doing it until someday they give up. (despite the fact that nearly all historical evidence points to the fact that the insurgents will never give up.)

Then there is the other option: Recognizing reality that what we are doing is not working, and choosing to change our policies accordingly. This means accepting the fact that we cannot accomplish the objectives we have set out. (by the way, still think the 'surge' is working? civilian death tolls are actually increasing)

To continue to declare victory in the face of this obvious realities is exactly what so many people condemn Bush for doing... not recognizing reality and dealing with the world how it is, not how you wish it was. Thank god Harry Reid has the balls that Bush so clearly lacks.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
New on drudge. link
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid said, on the same day US President George W. Bush was giving a speech at an Ohio town hall meeting defending the war on terror.
I don't see how these comments can be anything but harmful, unless you are a terrorist.

Can anyone explain how declaring that our military has 'lost' a war is helpful to the future of America?

Well I guess one would first have to agree that this is a "war" to begin with before they could call him a terrorist. Not sure what "war" was going on in Iraq before we got there a few years back to begin with. Just an FYI, it's not a war just because Bush calls it one. Besides, I am pretty sure we won that "war" about the first week we showed up when we steamrolled them. Please spare me the lame "war on terror" rebuttal, it is tired and played out, see sig.
 
Of course we can win---just nuke Iraq and fuse all the sand to glass.

If you are not that draconian---you start to realize its a people problem----and you have to offer the opposition something shy of a total loss sometimes.

And when you examine history--you find those who try to win total victory seldom achieve it---and those that have better people skills do better.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
New on drudge. link
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid said, on the same day US President George W. Bush was giving a speech at an Ohio town hall meeting defending the war on terror.
I don't see how these comments can be anything but harmful, unless you are a terrorist.

Can anyone explain how declaring that our military has 'lost' a war is helpful to the future of America?

Please show me where he Declared our military lost the war. Like its the Military's fault. Well maybe the Person way at the top, otherwise known as the "decider"

By the Way, the war was lost a long time ago and only delusional idiots deny it. Its funny that many of them, including the decider and his monkeys, Denied that Vietnam was a losing endeavor.

The Division in this country today, politically, is purely the Baby boomer's Fault. They have always been divided and Half of them refuse to except certain realities. Mainly Vietnam.

They are fighting vietnam still to this day.

 
Reid's statement is a bit misguided, and very much a partisan shot at the President's current "troop surge" strategy.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be in Iraq to begin with...and this may be a matter of semantics, but I don't think "lost" is the appropriate signal for sending to our troops, the American people and the enemy.

A more appropriate and reasonable approach is to criticize Bush's current strategy, and offer a counter strategy in its place...and that counter strategy could be setting a timetable withdrawal, or perhaps even an immediate withdrawal.

But to proclaim that "this war is lost" only proves to me that the Democrat leadership has no solution for Iraq, despite that very issue being the catalyst for their winning the majority in Congress...lots of partisan jabs, with no results or solutions. I wonder what the Democrats will do once they don't have Bush to blame for everything.
 
GWBs biggest mistake is to keep thinking this is a war.

Wars are won by causing the opposing side to expend sufficient blood and treasure that they reach a point that is no longer seems worthwhile to continue.

Considering the hundreds of billions we have already spent, it would seem that the opposing side is getting us to spend several million for every handful of dollars they spend.

While we do apparently kill more of them than they do us in most engagements, we would have to assume that they have a finite numbers fighters that can be overcome in a battle of attrition. This would seem to be untrue as they keep finding new recruits.

Since there is no other national treasury to deplete, no standing army to grind to dust; but we spend the tax dollars of our grandchildren, and grind down our own army, how do we expect to "win" anything?

Ried just pointed out the obvious.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Wouldn't losing a war require a military defeat?

About the only thing we have lost is the will to fight, nothing else.

Here is an analogy based on some stats from a football game a few years back:

The Texans were outgained 422-47 after sacks
completed only three passes and had only three first downs
The Steelers led 24-3 in first downs

Now, who do you think one that game from those stats?

No NFL team ever played worse offensively and won. What made the difference was very few teams -- much less an expansion one -- have played a game like this defensively.

Aaron Glenn scored twice on long interception returns and the Texans scored the first three defensive touchdowns in their history, all off Tommy Maddox turnovers, to stun the Pittsburgh Steelers 24-6.

The Steelers (7-5-1) were 6-1-1 in their previous eight games, the NFL's best record over that span except for Atlanta's 7-0-1, yet lost to a first-year team that completed only three passes and had only three first downs. The Texans were outgained 422-47 after sacks, the fewest yards ever by a winning team in NFL history.

Your problem is that you are unable to look at things objectively and to realize that even though you are superior in every manner, the "final score" is what matters. Right now it is 4th and 20, the score is 24-6 and the Bushies have less than a minute left on the clock.

The war is a lost cause and not because of anything the troops are capable of doing, they have done a remarkable job (minus some exceptions here and there). The "game" has been lost because of inept coaching. Those standing on the sidelines have called all the wrong plays and just cannot accept that they are done for and they shouldn't get anymore of their "star players" hurt.

Take them out of the game and wait for the next contest.
 
This thread is a good example of the arrogance of power, by 'framing' the issue not by the right areas such as the morality of the war, but just whether it can be won.

When we look at the revolutionary war of the colonies against Britain, we look at the principles - the purported abuses of King George III justifying war against Britain and political independance, with great pride in how moral the war was, and with England cast as the bad guys. But today, the arrogance of power leads to not asking any such questions, and just assuming the war is morally right, and the only question is about the method to win the war.

Going to war should involve many issues being satisfied, from the war being morally justified to it making military and even economic sense. The arrogance of power makes all those worries about morality fall by the wayside, just as England didn't ask any questions about whether their going to war against the colonies was right or wrong.

The US was supposed to be better, by moving the moral decisions to the public instead of a few elites, but as the posts from right-wingers show, the people can be corrupted too.

You can see the right offer up the worst sorts of justifications for more war, from 'saving face' and looking strong to 'keeping the losses from being in vain'.

The right lacks the morality to say no to wars it should say no to.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
New on drudge. link
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid said, on the same day US President George W. Bush was giving a speech at an Ohio town hall meeting defending the war on terror.
I don't see how these comments can be anything but harmful, unless you are a terrorist.

Can anyone explain how declaring that our military has 'lost' a war is helpful to the future of America?

So we can all be THINKING it, but we can't SAY it w/o being a terrorist? Oh man, you take the cake, you really do.
 
Originally posted by: Zorba
Admitting there is a problem is the first step.

Everyone admits there are major problems, do I have to provide a dozen Bush quotes stating so?
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Everyone admits there are major problems, do I have to provide a dozen Bush quotes stating so?
No, they'd only be lies, distractions and diversions that would fail to address the problems. The biggest problem is the Traitor In Chief and his cabal of murderers and traitors that started their war of lies. :thumbsdown: :frown: :thumbsdown:
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Zorba
Admitting there is a problem is the first step.

Everyone admits there are major problems, do I have to provide a dozen Bush quotes stating so?

Are there any that aren't followed by "but" ? 😉

 
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Reid's statement is a bit misguided, and very much a partisan shot at the President's current "troop surge" strategy.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be in Iraq to begin with...and this may be a matter of semantics, but I don't think "lost" is the appropriate signal for sending to our troops, the American people and the enemy.

A more appropriate and reasonable approach is to criticize Bush's current strategy, and offer a counter strategy in its place...and that counter strategy could be setting a timetable withdrawal, or perhaps even an immediate withdrawal.

But to proclaim that "this war is lost" only proves to me that the Democrat leadership has no solution for Iraq, despite that very issue being the catalyst for their winning the majority in Congress...lots of partisan jabs, with no results or solutions. I wonder what the Democrats will do once they don't have Bush to blame for everything.

yeah I THINK you are arguing semantics

Thats like GenX saying Iraq is engulfed in "civil strife" when the rest of the world is calling it a "civil war"

but I suppose instead of proclaimin the war is lost one could say that the "surge" has had no impact...and still be relaying the same message.

shrug.

I disagree that congress has offered no solution. The President is threatening a part of the solution with a veto as we speak.
 
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Reid's statement is a bit misguided, and very much a partisan shot at the President's current "troop surge" strategy.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be in Iraq to begin with...and this may be a matter of semantics, but I don't think "lost" is the appropriate signal for sending to our troops, the American people and the enemy.

A more appropriate and reasonable approach is to criticize Bush's current strategy, and offer a counter strategy in its place...and that counter strategy could be setting a timetable withdrawal, or perhaps even an immediate withdrawal.

But to proclaim that "this war is lost" only proves to me that the Democrat leadership has no solution for Iraq, despite that very issue being the catalyst for their winning the majority in Congress...lots of partisan jabs, with no results or solutions. I wonder what the Democrats will do once they don't have Bush to blame for everything.

Enough of all this who's sending what signals bullshit. That's not how you fight a war, and that's not how you win a war. So far as I can tell, Republicans believe that the way to win a conflict is to have the best bumper stickers...that as long as they feel good about the war that the actual, you know, war, will take care of itself. There is no military strategy, no political objectives, it's all about slapping a "Support the Troops" bumper sticking on your Hummer and waiting for the victory parade. And anybody who intrudes on this reality is a terrorist.

It's one of the most idiotic things about this whole war, and I can't see how even the most partisan idiots on the right cling to this fantasy. If the last several years have proven anything, it's that wars are not won by sending out the good vibes...they are won by good political and military decisions, from the moment the first boots hit the ground until the last soldier packs up and goes home. And so far, the decisions have been terrible...leading to where we are today. I'm not sure if the war is lost or not, but it's certainly in trouble. Had the Republicans been doing an excellent job thus far, I could see how statements that the war was going poorly could be seen as "defeatism", but Bush has spent every single day since the invasion driving Iraq right off a cliff...I don't see how you can blame the Democrats for simply speaking the truth.

Like I said, I'm not sure the war is lost, but I could certainly understand why some people might think so. As righties love to say, Bush is commander in chief, and he's done a piss poor job of it thus far. If he (or anybody else on the right) wants to convince an increasing majority of the country that things are going to turn out well in Iraq, there is probably a better strategy than suggesting anyone with concerns is some sort of pro-terrorist traitor. When you're the guy (or supporting the guy) who drove the war into a ditch in the first place, it looks pretty bad for you to blame people who question your ability to salvage the situation.
 
The point is also by all tenants of war---our military has already won---we occupied the capital of a supposedly hostile power in a week----our problem is that we have lost the peace because of the incredibly inept bungling of GWB&co.---and that process of winning or losing the peace is, was, and remains a political problem.

And after four long years---isn't it time to give up any faith in GWB&co?

Who was it who said lead, follow, or get out of the way?----with GWB&co. refusing to EFFECTIVELY lead, refusing the follow any alternate ideas, and refusing to get out of the way.
 
Just to help offer a different perspective, here is a quick summary of the progression of the Iraq war from my perspective.

1. Bush tells me that Iraq is a dangerous enemy in league with the 9/11 terrorist group, and could be behind future acts of nuclear terrorism. I don't know about that, but the guy seems like he's on the ball when it comes to fighting terrorism, so me and a lot of the country go along with his plan.

2. Leading up to the actual invasion, Bush and the rest of his administration go into GREAT detail about how dangerous Saddam's Iraq is, and how EASY it will be to turn it from a terrorist supporting dictatorship into a pro-US democracy. It sounds a little weird, but Bush keeps reassuring us that the invasion and occupation will be quick and easy, and Iraqis will be shopping at the Gap and drinking Starbucks in no time flat...so me and a lot of other people still like the idea.

3. We invade, and as promised, that part of the war is quick and easy. Bush, with a great deal of ceremony, lands on an aircraft carrier, and with his flightsuit and codpiece, struts onto the deck to declare "Mission Accomplished". Saddam is out of power, and we're well on our way to disarming Iraq of WMDs and setting up a democracy. Yay!

4. The WMDs are proving elusive, and the Iraqis aren't exactly taking to democracy like we might have hoped. But it's just a little growing pains and Iraq will be all better in no time, and those WMDs are probably just in some bunker somewhere. We're mollified.

5. STILL no WMDs, and Iraq seems to be getting worse, not better. They're holding elections and transferring power, but the crucial ingredient of not killing each other seems to be missing. Some grumbling starts, and Republicans are quick on the offense, saying that WMDs weren't the main goal anyways, it was getting those terrorists, and that anybody who says otherwise hates America. As for peace in Iraq, it's just a matter of time...and stop bringing up how "quick and easy" Bush said this would be...do you hate America or something? Fox News viewers are relieved that we got the folks behind 9/11 (look up the polling if you think this is a joke), but the rest of us are getting a little concerned.

6. Obviously no WMDs were in the country, obviously no real links to Al-Qaeda, and that whole democracy thing seems to have hit a few roadblocks. But it's still important, say the Republicans, because it's the "central front in the global war on terror". Those of us that point out that it's only been that since we invaded are invited to move to France if we hate America so much. And those WMDs, well they weren't a big deal anyways, but we found some. Hah! Or at least Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly say so, and really, why would they lie? Many of us who initially supported the war are worried about the outcome of the disaster it has become, only to be reminded by Republicans that attitude is the most important thing...as long as we think positive, it's all going to work out. Quite frankly, this sounds like new-age hippie bullshit, but since the only alternative to faith-based war fighting is supporting the terrorists, what are we going to do?

To sum up, what this looks like from my side is an incompetent jackass totally fvcked things up, after assuring us that it was all well in hand, changed his story about why we had to be there (and then insulted our intelligence when we pointed that out), and he and his supporters seem firmly entrenched in their rosy belief that the REAL enemy we need to defeat to win in Iraq is the Democrats. Never mind those sectarian militias we can't seem to keep under control, never mind the astonishingly weak Iraqi government, never mind the toothless Iraqi police and military, the real thrust of our "surge" needs to be against people who aren't confident in the outcome of the war. I mean, geez, with how great it's going, how could ANYONE doubt its eventual success?!?
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
New on drudge. link
The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.

"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid said, on the same day US President George W. Bush was giving a speech at an Ohio town hall meeting defending the war on terror.
I don't see how these comments can be anything but harmful, unless you are a terrorist.

Can anyone explain how declaring that our military has 'lost' a war is helpful to the future of America?

He is on the side of logic. Declaring it a lost cause might *gasp* cause us to get the hell out of that hellhole and admit our mistakes. You are just parroting the nonsensical "if you aren't with us, you are with the terrorists!".
 
Enough of all this who's sending what signals bullshit. That's not how you fight a war, and that's not how you win a war.
We already won the war in Iraq...sticking around to secure the peace was our mistake.
 
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Enough of all this who's sending what signals bullshit. That's not how you fight a war, and that's not how you win a war.
We already won the war in Iraq...sticking around to secure the peace was our mistake.

Our first mistake was getting into it at all.....
 
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