HardOCP CES Rumor: nVidia drops XFX Europe? Visiontek gets canned?

[Zstream]

I disagree here. You are giving price performance ,not performance.
You don't pit cards up against each other by price only.

Umm well you can have your opinion I guess but all OTHER consumer products ARE done doing price vs. price.

 

[lavaheadache]

But we were talking about performance and cards sold and market share.

Nvidia owns all three. I like the underdog and competition too but facts are facts.

If a the owner of Chevy challenges the owner of Ford in a race and tells him to bring YOUR BEST! and the owner of Ford brings a cheaper Mustang, does that mean its better or faster then a Vette? Does Ford have the better car because its cheaper and ALMOST as fast? NO.

The Ford owner should have bought the Ford GT to the race. But then again it costs 2 times the Vette?

If me and you race and I beat you . Do you still somehow win because your car was cheaper?

In the race to have the fastest graphics cards, the key word is fastest.

What kind of race is it though? The 4 series did beat the GTX series in a handful of situations, and was usually a good deal cheaper. I think that was his point. Also I think you are forgetting about the Ford GT

 

[happy medium]

Umm well you can have your opinion I guess but all OTHER consumer products ARE done doing price vs. price.

What if one company has the fastest and best product @ 1900x1080 and at the 500$ price point and another company has the second best product at a lesser price?

Which company has the fastest product?

Ati makes good cards for the money but they don't sell as many,don't have the market share ,or have the fastest cards. Well they do now but they didn't for the past couple of years.
Thats a fact!

Just like its a fact we are paying more for cards, because Nvidia dropped the ball with there Fermi product.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

I dont think anyone here disputed the fact that fastest means fastest, regardless of price... The point was only brought up because Wreckage keeps switching his standards to fit whatever Nvidia has to offer, and currently, they are 2nd tier in performance, so we get all that "physx 3d vision folding" mumbo jumbo

Either way, Nvidia sells more because of brand name/lack of marketing from AMD, not because their cards are better... Everyone here knows this

Im not sure how the situation was back when AMD trounced the pentium 4s, but didnt Intel still outsell AMD? (I have no idea if they did, but Im guessing yes)

 

[SlickR12345]

Nvidia hasn't had an architecture change basically since GT80, 8xxx series of graphics.
Yeah you could say GTX series was sort of that, but then again they did not release performance and low segment parts.

Were was the GTX 250, GTX 240 and GTX 220. Instead they rebrand 900GTX to 9800GTX+ to GTS250 and now we get more rebrands with GT 220 and GT240.
Where is the GTX 250 with 192 stream procesors, GTX 240 with 160 stream procesors, etc?
They were late in the nm war, the on-die size was huge and it wasn't economically for them to release such versions, and thats why Nvidia is suffering now.
Such graphic cards would have blown ATI's newest 5750, 5770 and maybe even 5850 away.

 

[tviceman]

Nvidia hasn't had an architecture change basically since GT80, 8xxx series of graphics.
Yeah you could say GTX series was sort of that, but then again they did not release performance and low segment parts.

So they have had an architecture change then? Or they haven't? What are you saying? You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Obsoleet]

Wreckage, if you believe nVidia will gain 80% market share then put your money where your mouth is. If nVidia gains 80% market share in the next year then you win. If they don't, I win. I am willing to put $5000.00 USD in an escrow service if you are willing to do the same with payment to be handed out by an impartial 3rd party/judge after the year is up. Basically all my winnings from NFL football this year but I love gambling so this is no different than any other sports futures bet like betting on who would win the Superbowl at the beginning of the year.

The only Wreckage that will be involved with this is the wreckage to his bank account.

 

[Zap]

But we were talking about performance and cards sold and market share.
...
If me and you race and I beat you . Do you still somehow win because your car was cheaper?

That's a good analogy.

Im not sure how the situation was back when AMD trounced the pentium 4s, but didnt Intel still outsell AMD? (I have no idea if they did, but Im guessing yes)

I'm pretty sure the inferior Pentium 4 outsold Athlon 64 all over the place (except with enthusiasts).

At least this allowed Intel to make shitloads of money that they put back into R&D, which is now giving us Core i5/i7.

Eh, maybe in the years to come, we can look back to now and say to each other, "at least Nvidia's endless rebrands allowed them to make money that they put back into R&D, which is now giving us Fermi2." :awe:

Nvidia hasn't had an architecture change basically since GT80, 8xxx series of graphics.

You can say the same about ATI since at least the 3000 series. Add more processors, shrink process, name change... add more processors, shrink process, name change...

 

[akugami]

If me and you race and I beat you . Do you still somehow win because your car was cheaper?

In the race to have the fastest graphics cards, the key word is fastest.

I do agree with what you're saying and that's one way of looking at things but I think you'll agree that a different way of measuring things is bang for the buck. Neither way of measuring is wrong. Just different.

Wreckage will pump up one way of measuring things to put nVidia on top. He'll then change metrics and make a different argument on why nVidia is better while completely ignoring the fact that AMD caught up or surpassed nVidia in the original way Wreckage was measuring things to put nVidia on top. That is the problem.

If I wanted to, even during the times when AMD was at its worse, I could probably twist things around to show AMD is better than nVidia but that would just be bias. That's why they say there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

I have a set of criteria that I use to measure how much a card is worth to me. I stick to it while acknowledging other criteria. For me, bang for the buck is one of the most important since I set a personal limit of $400 tops for a video card. Having the absolute fastest card is not that important to me. I can afford $600+ for a video card, I just choose not to spend that much due to a decrease in available gaming time. It would take a very good reason for me to change how I evaluate what value a video card has to me.

 

[T2k]

I have a set of criteria that I use to measure how much a card is worth to me. I stick to it while acknowledging other criteria. For me, bang for the buck is one of the most important since I set a personal limit of $400 tops for a video card. Having the absolute fastest card is not that important to me. I can afford $600+ for a video card, I just choose not to spend that much due to a decrease in available gaming time. It would take a very good reason for me to change how I evaluate what value a video card has to me.

Exactly the same thing here - like most working adult I could afford probably any card (even Quadro 5800 is under $2k) but why would I when it's for mostly hobby purposes (well, except I work for a 3D/anim company )?
I am willing to buy the fastest single GPU or dual GPU card as long as it's around $400 and that's it. So far it served perfectly fine for me since my X800PE*...

*: OK, there was this exception with my OCZ 8800GTX 768MB@Ultra (Mfr OC) a bit above $500 but that served me ~18 months...

 

[thilanliyan]

Apparently BFG is also leaving the EU market?
From the owner of overclockers.co.uk online retailer:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=15506463&postcount=65

 

[biostud]

probably don't have enough fermi GPU's to all the vendors

 

[evolucion8]

Actually, for the vast majority of people out there, price is a very important metric in deciding on any purchase, video card, car, whatever. Remember, most people work within a budget and price/performance in whatever product is being bought is a huge factor.

And once you factor in price, the competition is much closer than you obviously care to admit.

Also he forgot to include the HD 4850X2 and the GTX 260 192 and its faster competitive solution, the HD 4870 512MB.

 

[Wreckage]

Either way, Nvidia sells more because of brand name/lack of marketing from AMD, not because their cards are better... Everyone here knows this

No only a handful of ATI fans believe this. NVIDIA simply sells a better product and of course more people want to buy it. Sales data shows this.

Look the 275 was faster than the top ATI GPU. So was the 280 and 285. That means ATI had 4th fastest GPU last round.

As for the whole "bang for the buck" argument. My 260 was cheaper than a 4870 at the time, so the argument is...invalid. This was always a lame argument to begin with. Besides with ATI cards so overpriced right now, you would think this would be an issue with you.

On average NVIDIA met them on price, beat them on performance and dominated them in market share and sales.

 

[evolucion8]

What if one company has the fastest and best product @ 1900x1080 and at the 500$ price point and another company has the second best product at a lesser price?

Which company has the fastest product?

Ati makes good cards for the money but they don't sell as many,don't have the market share ,or have the fastest cards. Well they do now but they didn't for the past couple of years.
Thats a fact!

Just like its a fact we are paying more for cards, because Nvidia dropped the ball with there Fermi product.

Totally true except the fact that ATi indeed gained market share in the HD 4x00 era, being a price/performance champion that forced nVidia to drop dramatically the GTX price, you can use the steam hardware survey as an approximation, and you can see that the share of the HD 4x00 series is higher than the GTX series, and that the most card sold under the GTX series is the GTX 260 which is a damn good card.

I don't think that Wreckage think the same about the HD 4870 though

No only a handful of ATI fans believe this. NVIDIA simply sells a better product and of course more people want to buy it. Sales data shows this.

Look the 275 was faster than the top ATI GPU. So was the 280 and 285. That means ATI had 4th fastest GPU last round.

As for the whole "bang for the buck" argument. My 260 was cheaper than a 4870 at the time, so the argument is...invalid. This was always a lame argument to begin with. Besides with ATI cards so overpriced right now, you would think this would be an issue with you.

On average NVIDIA met them on price, beat them on performance and dominated them in market share and sales.

You are sick man, you should go a see a doctor. Doing the same attitude that cost you a ban for the third time is for insane people. GTX 295 was faster than the HD 4870X2 which was faster than the HD 4850X2 which was faster than the GTX 285 that was faster than the HD 4890 which was faster than the GTX 275 which was faster than the HD 4870 which was faster than the GTX 260 216 which was faster than the HD 4870 512MB which was faster than the GTX 260 192. A perma ban is the medication that you need!

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658&p=6

I can't see the GTX 285 beating the HD 4890. Not bad for a 4th place GPU like you stated :S

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658&p=6

I can't see the GTX 285 beating the HD 4890. 3fps? LOLL

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658&p=7

In all tests, the GTX 285 and the HD 4890 traded blows, so both are equal, with the almighty GTX 285 winning the benchmark by the huge amount of 8fps, loll

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658&p=8

The GTX 285 defeated the HD 4890 by 7fps average, and the GTX 295 is only 5% faster than the HD 4870X2, and yet $100 cheaper at its launch price,

In the end, this data proves Wreckage can harness a wreck effect in the threads and the fact that mods aren't doing their job to keep the threads clean. Allowing him to derail, troll, mislead, lie with cheap nVidia fanboysm attacks with no real data to backup. You could state that I'm doing the same, which is far from true because I'm simply counter posting his lies with real data and facts and the avatar is a parody of TWIMTBP (I hate marketing programs that only promotes anti competitive practices and do nothing to the gaming community, the same goes to Intel inside crap and their cheap compiler tactics). And the fact that I don't get allergic reactions recommending nVidia cards suited to the needs of the OP.

Yup... it goes something like this. Nvidia has the best bang for the buck parts, they are the best! 48xx are released. Nvidia has the overall fastest card at any price, the are the best! 58xx are released. Nvidia has more market share, they are the best! It's the same thing over and over, the metric changes regardless of the conversation.

Forgot to add stereoscopic 3D, CUDA, PhysX and 2:1

 

[SlowSpyder]

Wreckage will pump up one way of measuring things to put nVidia on top. He'll then change metrics and make a different argument on why nVidia is better while completely ignoring the fact that AMD caught up or surpassed nVidia in the original way Wreckage was measuring things to put nVidia on top. That is the problem.

Yup... it goes something like this. Nvidia has the best bang for the buck parts, they are the best! 48xx are released. Nvidia has the overall fastest card at any price, the are the best! 58xx are released. Nvidia has more market share, they are the best! It's the same thing over and over, the metric changes regardless of the conversation.

Apparently BFG is also leaving the EU market?
From the owner of overclockers.co.uk online retailer:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=15506463&postcount=65

I wonder if other brands are bigger sellers in Europe then the popular brands here in America? I believe the EU is a bigger market then America, I can't imagine that BFG would be thrilled with this if it's true.

I'm actually suprised that more board makers don't use both companies, that way you'd always be selling the 'hot' technology. I guess those price incentives to stay loyal to one brand must be pretty good.

 

[MrK6]

No only a handful of ATI fans believe this. NVIDIA simply sells a better product and of course more people want to buy it. Sales data shows this.

Look the 275 was faster than the top ATI GPU. So was the 280 and 285. That means ATI had 4th fastest GPU last round.

As for the whole "bang for the buck" argument. My 260 was cheaper than a 4870 at the time, so the argument is...invalid. This was always a lame argument to begin with. Besides with ATI cards so overpriced right now, you would think this would be an issue with you.

On average NVIDIA met them on price, beat them on performance and dominated them in market share and sales.

Nope, not at all. Honestly, I can understand fanboyism, but the above is just inane drivel. If you want to talk last generation (which is convenient, let's live in the past because let's face it, NVIDA provides zero competition for this generation), AMD greatly outsold NVIDIA in the high-end market in summer of 2008. Where does that fit into your "bang-for-your-buck" argument? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

Concerning the news, I can't say I'm surprised. I think we're going to see some major shake-ups in the graphics market very soon. ATI had a rough change-over to AMD and was just barely able to float, but starting with the 4xxx series and now definitely with the 5xxx series, they're produce 9xxx series caliber parts again (great innovation, design, performance, bang-for-your-buck, features, etc.). Unfortunately, I think NVIDIA took a "vacation" at the worst time possible, and AMD may have caught them with their pants down. If Fermi turns out to really be a fantastic part (which from all current reports it doesn't seem like it will be), it may be time will spent. Otherwise, NVIDIA is going to be in for a rough ride for the next cycle or two.

All in all, I think there are several factors at play here. Primarily, you have the stagnation of the market due to consolitis, which drives away the need for higher performing parts and shifts focus to other metrics, like power usage, feature sets, and the like. You also have Global Foundries starting up (are they going to do GPU chips?), the TSMC supply issues, and penetration into other technologies and markets like GPGPU, Ion, Eyefinitiy, DX11, etc. My point is that the GPU market is becoming much more intricate/complicated than ever. I think AIB partners playing musical chairs with their suppliers is just a standard side effect. Whether or not the dropping/picking up is good or bad will remain to be seen.

 

[nemesismk2]

You can't argue with a spam bot. There is no way there is actual person behind the wheel on this one. Definately a programmed entity that can form on-the-fly responses with the same general response.

That is very funny and in the future would probably be true

 

[Mem]

Yeah getting close to 70% of the video card market at one point and beating them in virtually every benchmark sure sounds like they were not competing.

Seems the OP left out the fact that AMD was going to do some cuts as well.



Again I'm expecting NVIDIA to hit up near 80% of the market by the end of the year. Trimming a few lesser performing brands is just par for the course.

Its clear Nvidia are not happy, nice try on your 80% estimate and damage control spin.

The way they threat their partner companies always makes me think why people like you defend them,personally Nvidia have gotten too big for their boots IMHO,companies can choose or go over to the otherside or even look for a new market in the free world.

Why somebody like you would defend Nvidia over the years in every thread is beyond me,maybe its time to go outside (there is a real better world out there beyond Nvidia with pretty women,beer etc...trust me . )

 

[nemesismk2]

It's gutting to hear that BFG will no longer be operating in Europe. BFG made some great video cards which were usually factory overclocked.

 

[nemesismk2]

I deleted my post because I was talking rubbish. Too much work and not enough coffee

 

[yh125d]

In the UK Nvidia have been too expensive for a number of years compared to ATI. For the same price I can get a radeon 5750 if I went with Nvidia I could only get a geforce gts 250.

Aren't those similar in performance though? Maybe even edge to the GTS?

 

[Daedalus685]

Aren't those similar in performance though? Maybe even edge to the GTS?

You are correct.. I'm not sure what he is on about.. though the 5750 and gts250 are about the same price at overclockers.co.uk (depending on brand, most 5750's actually seem a bit more)

 

[nemesismk2]

off topic so deleted post

 

[SpacemanSpiffVT]

wow this is thread should be renamed to fanboy anonymous... entertaining read

in other news i just got a radeon 5770... my first ATI after about 4 Nvidia GPUs
so far its solid.