Hamas and Fatah agree to reunite.

[spacejamz]

So what does this say about the new Egyptian government who is now brokering deals between terrorists organizations?

What impact, if any, will this have to the 'stability' in this region? Will items that were previously barred from entering Palestine through Egypt's borders now be allowed to flow through? Wonder if that will have any long term impact as well...

 

[EagleKeeper]

The FGD Israeli history goes as follows in a direct quote.

"the problem with this assumtion in my opinion goes as followed:

Israel has always wanted peace with its neighbors, they even want it today (even if you dont think so)

but after 62 years of

from 48 to 67- "minor" clashes, nothing significant (The war of independence where the Arabs attacked on Day 1 and '58 when Egypt attempted to choke ISraels access to the Red Sea)
67- the point where the arab nations realize they couldnt take israel out (PLO takes over as a proxie to create terror instead)

67- 73

73- truely the last attempt to get rid of israel (by the Arab states)

73- 2000- years of minor clashes, some suicide bombing, rocket attacks, etc (+civilian massacres by the Palestinians outside of the ME areana)2000-present- lebanon war, operation cast lead, lots of suicide bombs and rocket attacks."

But two or three significant FGD omissions.

1. Between 1948 to 1949, Palestinians owned the bulk of the Land in Israel. By 1953, Israel in a series of Palestinian land thefts had swindled away all Palestinian land and had imprisoned all Palestinians in refugee camps. Until the Palestinians can again be made whole, Israel can never have any moral legitimacy. (Ignoring that Israel was attacked from within those lands with the acquence of the Palestinains. That land was under stewardship of the Arab states. It was the Arab states that created the refugee camps for the Palestinians.)

2. We can debate all the day long on who caused the 1967&73 wars, but two cogent facts are basically not in dispute. (a) Israel gained significant land by right of no longer legitimate conquest. (b) By the end of 1973, it was apparent to all that Israeli could not be defeated by the combined might of all Arab armies. (So the land conquest was originally legitmate - was that by the Arab states or Israel. Where are you drawing the line and why? The Arab states have not cared at all for the Palestinians)

3. Now we come back to that other original FGD contention, that "Israel has always wanted peace with its neighbors, they even want it today (even if you dont think so)"
But the problem with that FGD contention, is that early on, it was apparent to all after 1973, that the way to make the Palestinians whole, and secure a just peace, was to grant them the land Israel conquered in the 1967&73 wars. (The Arab states and the Palestinians did not have any interest in their own Palestinian state when they had control of the land. It was only after they realized that they would be unable to drive ISrael into the see and take that land, that they changed their tune.)

Now here we are in 2011, and still Israeli refuses to give up those lands as the price of the peace Israeli claims it desires. As Israel talks and talks and settles settles on land it cannot ever own, and still Israel refuses to leave, says it wants a Palestinian State and then does nothing but act to torpedo it.

The Palestinians have not offered peace up to this point. As long as shelling occurs from Gaza - controlled by a elected government; how can you considered that trying for peace. Abbas never showed up for peace talks. Arafat talked peace and war in the same sentence at Oslo

But now the world asks, in 2011, isn't time to force a final settlement?

So the real question to ask, is Israel running out of cards to play or not to prevent the formation of a Palestinians State by 9/2011.

Bolding is pointing out LL selective history. Who is the author and publisher where you learned your "facts" about the ME conflicts?

Let a Palestinians state occur by decree - doing so will void any agreements that the Palestinians have made and allow Israel to operate own her own as needed.

 

[Lemon law]

We argue along those same old lines on every similar thread, but by this Gaza West Bank reunification, its my my best guess that that single move will do much to help advance a Palestinian State in the fall of 2011.

But still Obama has not laid out his last plan expected this May, which is about the only thing I can now see as possible to alter that schedule.

Various Israeli fan clubbers can argue until they are blue in the face about various false revisionist histories, I think I prefer state why in future the Israeli hold on disputed territories will be kaput.

 

[Freshgeardude]

yes LL. once the palestinians declare a state in 9/11, all of the land israel claims will automatically be handed over without struggle.


naive is naive

 

[Macamus Prime]

I am pretty sure they are reunified to "strengthen" their attacks on Israel. The don't have the ability to hold back their thurst for blood.

Now, the Israels will not longer have to be careful on who they shoot back a,... oh, thats right,.. they never did.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I am pretty sure they are reunified to "strengthen" their attacks on Israel. The don't have the ability to hold back their thurst for blood.

Now, the Israels will not longer have to be careful on who they shoot back a,... oh, thats right,.. they never did.

When the Palestinians choose war; they have to accept that the opponent may not want to play with one hand tied behind their back. Hiding behind civilians only works when one does not care about civilians

 

[Lemon law]

For what its worth, in terms of Hamas renouncing violence, Abbas has issued one clarification today.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ntinue-to-handle-mideast-peace-talks-1.358620

So in short, Abbas and Fatah, and not Hamas will with one voice speak for all the Palestinian people regarding the negotiations leading up to a Palestinian State.

Negotiations that are really a world and UN concern, and not just an Israeli one. But key point its the PA, Fatah, and not Hamas that will be that one voice for all the Palestinian people for the next eight months and thus nothing has changed regarding Hamas being included in peace talks.

Then it turns into more of a decision tree.

Then if the world without a US veto decides to authorize a Palestinians State with or without Israeli participation in the debate before the deadline end of 9/2011, its extremely likely as part of any such a deal, the Palestinian people will have to renounce any use of violence against Israel outside of the borders of that Palestinian State, thus binding both Fatah and Hamas for all time. And in terms of any Palestinian motivations, attacking Israel would then gain them noting.

But then let us alternately ask, if the end of 9/2011 ends without a Palestinian state,
Then Abbas as sole spokesman may still petition the UN for a majority vote, and is still likely bind Hamas against the use of violence as the price of a majority vote. And then the USA will be put between a rock and hard place should it defy a probable world majority vote for a Palestinian State.

But still we must ask, its still possible neither tactic may secure the establishment of a Palestinian State, then a unified Palestinian people voice and future tactics, will be democratically determined by majority vote around 11/2011. And since that outcome is uncertain, its hard to make any predictions about how it will affect the still expected Palestinian State.

Meanwhile other events to be considered (a) Netanyuhu may lay out a new plan by the end of May and Obama is almost certain to. (b) The UN is expected to come up with a report in the next two weeks on past Israeli actions regarding last years flotillas. Its possible the UN could rule the Israeli blockade of Gaza as illegal. But on that point we will have to see. (c) A much large partially Turkish sponsored Flotillas is in the mid-planning stages, but will be unlikely to depart until after the 6/11/2011 Turkish elections. (d) We can't predict other random unknown events that will happen between
now and the end of September.

But still, the push for Palestinian Statehood is now better defined, now that we know, Fatah and the PA speak for all the Palestinian people.

 

[Macamus Prime]

When the Palestinians choose war; they have to accept that the opponent may not want to play with one hand tied behind their back. Hiding behind civilians only works when one does not care about civilians

Hands covered in innocent blood are still hands covered in innocent blood - no matter who started it. Both sides are willing to kill; no ifs, ands or buts. Give me all the reasons you want. None of them are an excuse or justification to spill innocent blood.

Also, this unity may be the last push to wipe out Israel, when in reality, Israel would have just cause to wipe out the Palestinians - so, look at the bright side! They can finally kill them all off!

Or, maybe hold onto a few of them to allow casinos or something years later??

 

[JSt0rm]

Or, maybe hold onto a few of them to allow casinos or something years later??

lol

 

[EagleKeeper]

For what its worth, in terms of Hamas renouncing violence, Abbas has issued one clarification today.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ntinue-to-handle-mideast-peace-talks-1.358620

So in short, Abbas and Fatah, and not Hamas will with one voice speak for all the Palestinian people regarding the negotiations leading up to a Palestinian State.

<snip>

But still, the push for Palestinian Statehood is now better defined, now that we know, Fatah and the PA speak for all the Palestinian people.

Is this Fatah/Abbas talking with or with Hamas approval

From your article links:

A senior Hamas leader said negotiations would not be part of the program of the new government to be formed as part of the agreement.

Abbas' comments came after earlier Wednesday, Mahmoud Zahar, a senior Hamas leader who participated in the reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas, said on that the interim Palestinian government would not be able to work on peace negotiations with Israel.

Zahar said the newly formed deal covered five points, including combining security forces and forming a government made up of "nationalist figures".

"Our program does not include negotiations with Israel or recognizing it," Zahhar said in Cairo. "It will not be possible for the interim national government to participate or bet on or work on the peace process with Israel."

Seems like as before.

Abbas may claim to have authority, but only in his mind. Hamas is not supporting him.

 

[QuantumPion]

If the New reunified Palestinian Government renounces violence, and follows up by greatly reducing anti-Israeli terrorism, its panic time for only Netanyuhu and other Israeli extremists.

Umm... what? Why? What does that even mean?

 

[Lemon law]

There is a possible flaw in the Common Courtesy statement, namely in saying, "Abbas' comments came after earlier Wednesday, Mahmoud Zahar, a senior Hamas leader who participated in the reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas, said on that the interim Palestinian government would not be able to work on peace negotiations with Israel."

And in thus saying, Mr. Zahar, probably does not speak as the united voice of Hamas. And even then, if Zahar was the united voice of Hamas, why did Fatah and Hamas ink any sort of a deal?

Any large entity, be it Israel, the US, Fatah, or Hamas, are never totally united behind just one voice. And my guess is that Zahar is simply speaking as a sore loser because he was on the wrong side of a Hamas majority.

And for that matter, before the eight months forward larger Palestinian election, Abbas authority to speak for both in peace negotiations could be put in the form of a joint Fatah and Hamas people's Palestinian referendum almost immediately if needed.

As for the rest of the world, it looks like almost no one is rushing to make any final judgment, as most of the world is looking at the surprising reunification news, as they slowly access exactly what it will end up meaning.

 

[Lemon law]

I wonder how delusional Quantumpion is if he asks what this means?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
If the New reunified Palestinian Government renounces violence, and follows up by greatly reducing anti-Israeli terrorism, its panic time for only Netanyuhu and other Israeli extremists.
Umm... what? Why? What does that even mean?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because QauntumPion, both Israeli and Palestinian behavior is on world probation, and if the Palestinians behave better than Israelis, which IMHO they have been doing for some years, then international judgment will fall mostly on Israel.

After all, at the request of Israel, Fatah renounced the use of anti-Israeli violence many years ago, but in terms of Israel making any concessions to Fatah, where has it gotten Fatah in the West Bank except nowhere but getting more and more illegal Israeli settlers.

And now the UN has to decide to grant a Palestinians State in 2011 before too much Israeli settlement makes it too late to remain a viable option.

And without a Palestinian State, the Palestinian refugee crisis will still remain, meaning the only other options is Israeli assimilation of the Palestinian people with full voting rights. Smarter people in Israel already know this, its only crazed settler parties and Netanyuhu who are short term delusional.

But Quantumpion somewhat only shows his own ignorance, and cannot mentally conceive just because he is an Israeli fan clubber does not mean everyone in the world must be.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I wonder how delusional Quantumpion is if he asks what this means?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon law View Post
If the New reunified Palestinian Government renounces violence, and follows up by greatly reducing anti-Israeli terrorism, its panic time for only Netanyuhu and other Israeli extremists.
Umm... what? Why? What does that even mean?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because QauntumPion, both Israeli and Palestinian behavior is on world probation, and if the Palestinians behave better than Israelis, which IMHO they have been doing for some years, then international judgment will fall mostly on Israel.

After all, at the request of Israel, Fatah renounced the use of anti-Israeli violence many years ago, but in terms of Israel making any concessions to Fatah, where has it gotten Fatah in the West Bank except nowhere but getting more and more illegal Israeli settlers.

And now the UN has to decide to grant a Palestinians State in 2011 before too much Israeli settlement makes it too late to remain a viable option.

And without a Palestinian State, the Palestinian refugee crisis will still remain, meaning the only other options is Israeli assimilation of the Palestinian people with full voting rights. Smarter people in Israel already know this, its only crazed settler parties and Netanyuhu who are short term delusional.

But Quantumpion somewhat only shows his own ignorance, and cannot mentally conceive just because he is an Israeli fan clubber does not mean everyone in the world must be.

Your IMHO is worthless in terms of behavior. the Palestinians can do no wrong. Where is the rest of your rose colored team?
What caused Cast Lead. What happened when the "peace agreement" was first inked between Hamas and Israel?

What caused the attacks into Lebanon?

Anything that Israel has done with respect to the Gaza strip has been as a result of the Palestinians there trying to determine how much trouble they can get away with before Israel backslaps them.

The same happened in Lebanon.

IN the process now of the Palestinians getting their acts together
Every rocket fired into Israel will be logged.
Every suicide attack and/or sniping will also be logged.
Accountability of Palestinian actions will happen.

You will find that while Fatah/West Bank may have a very minor incident ratio; the Gaza side does/will not. And if Abbas is speaking for ALL Palestinians; then he has to accept the handicap of those that refuse to work within his framework.

Your many years ago was before Fatah & Hamas split. Fatah has to accept the responsibility/handicap of Hamas. The Hamas record belongs to the Palestinian people.

As much as the Palestinians want the "right of return" it is not going to happen. Any refugees will be free to go into the new Palestinian state and be absorbed by that system. Israel does not have to do squat for anyone outside its territorial borders. Voting rights are determiend by a government, not an external body.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This will be interesting to watch from an internal politics POV. I wonder if there will be assassinations in the jockeying for position within the new organization.

 

[Lemon law]

Delude on Common Courtesy, because an external authority demanded an end to South African Apartheid, one stick was to demand voting rights for blacks and whites, and the mechanism was an economic embargo.

And while I have said Israeli apartheid is likely to end the same way, failing the establishment of a Palestinian State, its still not looking very good for Israel hanging onto to disputed territory.

But at least one of my predictions came true today, as I said as long ago, the Israeli embargo of Hamas would not be much longer tolerated. The flotillas forced Israel into partial reform, but now as of today the Israeli embargo is largely kaput or should I say in 10 days. And this link makes it official.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...er-crossing-to-be-permanently-opened-1.358690

Of course now there is a new question, will Hamas abuse the privilege by importing offensive weapons to be used against Israel , or will Hamas start to rebuild its economy?
And with a pledge from Saudi Arabia to the tune of at least three billion, Hamas can do much to build its economy. And if Hamas imports some defensive weapons, the next cast lead Israeli type operations may see Israeli tanks faring about as well as they did against Hezbollah.

In short Israel now has more reasons to support a Palestinian State as Israel finds itself ever more isolated.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

In short Israel now has more reasons to support a Palestinian State as Israel finds itself ever more isolated.

I'm ambivalent about statehood as I see good and bad points to it but you should understand the potential consequences. If a recognized nation of Palestine co-exists with Israel then things are all good. If however Hamas or its derivative were to attack Israel then all bets are off as they have declared war. No amount of "but look at the history" will mitigate official acts of hostilities. That leaves Israel to determine the fate of Palestine. Their options range from simple retaliation to obliteration depending on the nature of the provoking attack.

There really do be dragons here.

 

[Lemon law]

I'm ambivalent about statehood as I see good and bad points to it but you should understand the potential consequences. If a recognized nation of Palestine co-exists with Israel then things are all good. If however Hamas or its derivative were to attack Israel then all bets are off as they have declared war. No amount of "but look at the history" will mitigate official acts of hostilities. That leaves Israel to determine the fate of Palestine. Their options range from simple retaliation to obliteration depending on the nature of the provoking attack.

There really do be dragons here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is simply, without a Palestinian State, the only possible expression of Palestinian energy has been in attacking the very Israeli State whole stole their rights and land in 1948.

But we have at least two or more new dragons, running around the mid-east. Because all over the mid-east region old line Arab dictators are losing all legitimacy. Because those dictators enriched only themselves, at the expense of not only their own people, but also retarded the development of their national economies.

Then we have a somewhat new dragon to confront, will the new rising mid-east democracies follow the policies and ideals of a Shia Iran of militant Islam , or will they follow more mainstream old line Sunni dominant but less aggressive policies? Its now a crucial question for the larger oil dependent world, as its somewhat apparent that only the Arabs themselves are making those decisions. And more over make them only on their own.
As the EU, the USA, have little control, especially since they too long gave Israeli policy, a blank check. As its the single Israeli irritant that unites all Arabs, and Israel has done everything to continue to earn Arab Hatreds.

But no one can predict how the new Arab uprising will play out or how far they will go. But one thing we can say that is almost certain, the old Israeli policies that worked at pacifying the old line Arab dictators are now as a dead as the dodo. And compared to the
Israeli dragon, the new transition Arab dragon promises to be become far larger. As Israeli is now at a new cross roads.

Israel can now choose to endorse and help develop a Palestinians State, and in that way maybe finally becomes a useful part of the new Mid-east, or Israeli can continue to try to hold onto to disputed territory until its far far beyond the US ability to save it.

As for the rest of the world, they have long ago written off Israeli arrogance as a world liability.

But the key is really Iran, as some see Israeli as a counter to Iran. But gradually there is a rising world consensus, aiding Israel only empowers Iran. And now a shell shocked Arab league has to decide if they will dope slap the Iranian proxy in Syria.

As for Israel, its really absurd to assume that a tiny nation like Israel will long be permitted to destabilize the entire mid-east. As now the Israeli dragon, has to make a choice, will they try to be a useful part of a new Mid-east, or try a to climb upon a new Massada, that did not work out well for Israel last time Israel tried it.

Its maybe a ancient Chinese curse, may you live in changing times, but at the same time smarter nations exploit change and gain, and the dumber one fight it and lose.

 

[lupi]

why is this thread still going, jonks won it with the first reply.

 

[Lemon law]

why is this thread still going, jonks won it with the first reply.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't be an idiot lupi, jonks may have tickled the funny bone for a few Israeli fan clubbers, but if you follow world news like I do, you will find these questions are not only very much alive, but moving to an end game despite your denials.

 

[nick1985]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't be an idiot lupi, jonks may have tickled the funny bone for a few Israeli fan clubbers, but if you follow world news like I do, you will find these questions are not only very much alive, but moving to an end game despite your denials.

Hamas fan clubber

 

[Infohawk]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't be an idiot lupi, jonks may have tickled the funny bone for a few Israeli fan clubbers, but if you follow world news like I do, you will find these questions are not only very much alive, but moving to an end game despite your denials.

Do you have the balls to give a date certain when things will be ended by? Because otherwise all you are is a guy that keeps screaming that Israel is near its end while the seasons keep passing.

 

[Lemon law]

Hamas fan clubber

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if I were a Hamas pro violent solution which I am not, riddle me this Nick1985, what the hell difference would it make in any grand scheme of things.

May I politely suggest to you Nick1985, that the ways to form valid informed opinions is to read current world news.

Right now I spend some time reading the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, but if that is too liberal for your taste, there is also the Jerusalem Post.

But in any case, many in Israel share many of my concerns, as some casual reading of even the Jpost will rapidly reveal to you.

But now the new Netanyuhu policy is to demand of the entire world that they reject the unity government of Hamas and Fatah.

And when the world does not all agree to the Netanyuhu delusions, it may be time for Netanyuhu to realize Israel is no longer the arbitrator of a likely coming Palestinian State.
And the realization the larger world does not revolve around only Israel.

 

[nick1985]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if I were a Hamas pro violent solution which I am not, riddle me this Nick1985, what the hell difference would it make in any grand scheme of things.

May I politely suggest to you Nick1985, that the ways to form valid informed opinions is to read current world news.

Right now I spend some time reading the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, but if that is too liberal for your taste, there is also the Jerusalem Post.

But in any case, many in Israel share many of my concerns, as some casual reading of even the Jpost will rapidly reveal to you.

But now the new Netanyuhu policy is to demand of the entire world that they reject the unity government of Hamas and Fatah.

And when the world does not all agree to the Netanyuhu delusions, it may be time for Netanyuhu to realize Israel is no longer the arbitrator of a likely coming Palestinian State.
And the realization the larger world does not revolve around only Israel.

Hamas fan clubber

 

[Infohawk]

May I politely suggest to you Nick1985, that the ways to form valid informed opinions is to read current world news.

Right now I spend some time reading the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, but if that is too liberal for your taste, there is also the Jerusalem Post.

WTF do you think you are? You're an obviously uneducated asshat on the internet. Stop trying to act like you're deserving of respect or that you have anything to share with the world. Nobody cares what you think. Not even on this random internet forum. If you're going to repeat your garbage ad nauseum at least do it without the pathetic ego-stroking.