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Hacking taking on a worrisome trend. Real world damage.

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zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
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Amen!

And I'll extend this from the "cloud" to just "networking" in general. It sometimes seems to me that IT people want to network everything just so that they can monitor everything from their desktop PC and never have to get out of their office chairs. :(

not only that, but i mean think of.. say. the banking system...

SHIT HAS TO BE REAL TIME.
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
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Why are these systems open though? You'd think they would require to have physical access to the control room or something. Like, an internal WAN that's not on the internet.

Or are these people actually hacking through the VPN? I know there was a huge wad of companies hacked recently because of an RSA SecurID exploit so guess VPNs can be easily hacked by people who know what they're doing especially when there's a known exploit.

You can't get the idea of not connecting everything through the heads of the Cloud based idealists. They only see the good side of cloud computing not the bad side. Look at windows 8 and how much of it is cloud specific. Look at how much sites like amazon, apple, want you to use the cloud.

I use zero cloud services and store data nowhere except my own equipment. If people want to be foolish and trust some corporate entity thousands of miles away that is their choice, I opt out.

Aren't they relying on people to carry these worms across security no man's lands as well though? A computer doesn't have to be connected to the internet or even have an assigned IP address to be targeted. Those wishing to target it simply have to have intimate knowledge of its existence and how it operates the systems it controls. The worm can use the internet and intranets to spread all the way up to said computer's doorstep then wait in hiding for someone to hand deliver it the extra few feet by hand. Say on a USB stick, when performing system upgrades. I could be wrong in thinking this has been exploited yet?
 

Meractik

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2003
1,752
0
0
The problem isn't code, it is people not understanding embedded security.
A water pump that has firmware that can be updated over a network ? The person who decided this was a good idea needs to be re-educated on how to secure firmware in embedded devices. I have written thousands of lines of firmware code and never once ever came close to anyone being able to replace it with their own, there are so many ways to guard against that . You can even make firmware hacking so hard that even having physical access to the hardware will not allow you to change the firmware. I can think of several ways that would hinder anyone except the best equipped people using acid and electron microscopes and even then they would have problems altering the firmware.

It all boils down to people doing work in areas they are not qualified to work under.

I totally agree, I look at today's simple BIOS firmware upgrade capabilities integrated on motherboards with the ability to update via LAN and I wonder why?
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
44
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Actually, the really "old school" technologies that don't use routable protocols or widely used operating systems are much less vulnerable to cyberterrorists. I'm thinking we'll be better off if we more carefully consider the benefits and risks of applying new computer technologies rather than just blindly applying whatever new thing hits the market -- particularly for critical infrastructure. If it ain't broke...

The SCADA systems that I am familiar with are far from being "open", but are protected behind firewall and by various other security arrangements. That said, I'm not really sure that the so-called cybersercuity experts that install and manage these protections are smarter than the free-lance hackers and government agencies that are bent on breaking them. A little more hubris might be our best protection.

Also, in my experience, the controls issued through a SCADA system are not capable of directly damaging equipment. Hackers would have to get deeper into the local devices on the equipment to do that.

The problem though is that some of these systems like the power distribution network is so overburdened and antiquated that it might as well be broken. So while introducing new tech to these areas may open up more security worries they would also massively improve their operation. The smart grid may indeed be a national security risk but not having it is also holding back long term growth and development.
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
81
Aren't they relying on people to carry these worms across security no man's lands as well though? A computer doesn't have to be connected to the internet or even have an assigned IP address to be targeted. Those wishing to target it simply have to have intimate knowledge of its existence and how it operates the systems it controls. The worm can use the internet and intranets to spread all the way up to said computer's doorstep then wait in hiding for someone to hand deliver it the extra few feet by hand. Say on a USB stick, when performing system upgrades. I could be wrong in thinking this has been exploited yet?

nope your not.
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
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I totally agree, I look at today's simple BIOS firmware upgrade capabilities integrated on motherboards with the ability to update via LAN and I wonder why?

Because! Them liquid nitrogen overclockers got to be able to flash their BIOS at the drop of a hat. From anywhere round the world! Seriously though you tend to see this kind of feature more in enthusiast / OC mobos. They don't use these types of boards in critical systems. At least I hope to god not.
 

Meractik

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2003
1,752
0
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Because! Them liquid nitrogen overclockers got to be able to flash their BIOS at the drop of a hat. From anywhere round the world! Seriously though you tend to see this kind of feature more in enthusiast / OC mobos. They don't use these types of boards in critical systems. At least I hope to god not.

I just built a newer system with a Gigabyte mobo and it is the first time i have seen it. I don't even overclock nor do i care too. I will never use it and i think it is a really silly idea.

You're right though, i know for a fact that the critical systems do not use this type of technology. Having worked on some special systems the technology is normally years behind whats available on the private market today, it works for what they need it for though... so they're happy with it. even though it might not be the latest and greatest.
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
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I just built a newer system with a Gigabyte mobo and it is the first time i have seen it. I don't even overclock nor do i care too. I will never use it and i think it is a really silly idea.

You're right though, i know for a fact that the critical systems do not use this type of technology. Having worked on some special systems the technology is normally years behind whats available on the private market today, it works for what they need it for though... so they're happy with it. even though it might not be the latest and greatest.

what's silly about overclocking? shit that's bang for the buck man... and as long as you know what your doing with volts and temps.. it's no harder on your hardware than running it default.. shit.. every clocked chip i've ever owned actually ran MORE EFFICIENTLY than it would have default/factory cooled..
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
44
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I just built a newer system with a Gigabyte mobo and it is the first time i have seen it. I don't even overclock nor do i care too. I will never use it and i think it is a really silly idea.

Yes you're still in the demographic for that type of mobo, enthusiast system builders. My guess is that your average computer at power plants that monitor and control power distribution aren't running ASUS formula IV mobos. If they are using mainstream retail parts they would be bare bones Intel boards, or Tyan or Supermicro type server boards. Or some other company I've never heard of. Remember I'm actually making the argument that these systems ARE dangerously open to hacking, but it's not like you can login in through telnet and reflash their BIOSs.
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
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Yes you're still in the demographic for that type of mobo, enthusiast system builders. My guess is that your average computer at power plants that monitor and control power distribution aren't running ASUS formula IV mobos. If they are using mainstream retail parts they would be bare bones Intel boards, or Tyan or Supermicro type server boards. Or some other company I've never heard of. Remember I'm actually making the argument that these systems ARE dangerously open to hacking, but it's not like you can login in through telnet and reflash their BIOSs.

but you could remote admin into them assuming you could get that far.. most mobos can be flashed from in windows nowdays..

but then again, anything worthwhiles not running windows.. so you'd be working with a unix prompt...
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
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but you could remote admin into them assuming you could get that far.. most mobos can be flashed from in windows nowdays..

but then again, anything worthwhiles not running windows.. so you'd be working with a unix prompt...

A lot of these systems are old and may not be running windows. I suspect a lot of them are running some form of unix or if they are embedded systems then they are running some custom code.
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
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Remember Stuxnet was a masterful piece of coding. We aren't talking kiddy scripting here.
 

Meractik

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2003
1,752
0
0
what's silly about overclocking? shit that's bang for the buck man... and as long as you know what your doing with volts and temps.. it's no harder on your hardware than running it default.. shit.. every clocked chip i've ever owned actually ran MORE EFFICIENTLY than it would have default/factory cooled..


It is over my head to do any type of overclocking, plus my systems never require the extra 'ommph' so i don't bother. Good for you on reaching the physical limits of your hardware, assuming you meet the proper cooling and such then I will agree that you can get the best bang for your buck. I never push my systems so far though that I need that extra power. (plus im afraid id ruin something....) I was refering to the flashing BIOS via LAN as being silly though, not the idea of overclocking... ;)
 
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zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
81
Remember Stuxnet was a masterful piece of coding. We aren't talking kiddy scripting here.

yep, the majority of people really, really, do not understand how much we are a slave to tech, i mean... i could think of ways to really, really, fuck some shit up.. and i'm not even that advanced of a network guru.. i'm like.. very very bottom of the barrel.. but i know, exactly, how easy it would be for someone to really do some serious damage..


think of how bad it would be if the fiber under the ocean was disrupted..for a couple days... the satellite backups we have in place, would NOT be of much help.. think of the latency... yeah.. you could really mess some stuff up if you strategically took down our power grid, and silmultaniously disrupted the fiber backbones connecting NA to Eurasia....
 

janas19

Platinum Member
Nov 10, 2011
2,313
1
0
Actually, the really "old school" technologies that don't use routable protocols or widely used operating systems are much less vulnerable to cyberterrorists. I'm thinking we'll be better off if we more carefully consider the benefits and risks of applying new computer technologies rather than just blindly applying whatever new thing hits the market -- particularly for critical infrastructure. If it ain't broke...

The SCADA systems that I am familiar with are far from being "open", but are protected behind firewall and by various other security arrangements. That said, I'm not really sure that the so-called cybersercuity experts that install and manage these protections are smarter than the free-lance hackers and government agencies that are bent on breaking them. A little more hubris might be our best protection.

Also, in my experience, the controls issued through a SCADA system are not capable of directly damaging equipment. Hackers would have to get deeper into the local devices on the equipment to do that.

Yeah, and good luck explaining that to the suits in the private sector, you ass.

Manager of power plant: "No, I don't want to upgrade to the latest Siemens control system, because older stuff is just SAFER."

General manager of utility company: "Oh yeah? Get the fuck out of here, you're fired."

Yep, I'm sure that's what would happen.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
Bottom line, these system shouldn't be connected to the internet in ANY way. Physical security is still king too.
 

videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
6,783
27
91
Remember Stuxnet was a masterful piece of coding. We aren't talking kiddy scripting here.

There are some very smart hackers out there. I would go as far as saying there aren't many systems in the world I actually consider secure.

As always, physical access is king. Unplug the net connection, and most hackers won't risk breaking into your building to mess with your firmware.
 
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Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
44
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There are some very smart hackers out there. I would go as far as saying there aren't many systems in the world I actually consider secure.

As always, physical access is king. Unplug the net connection, and most hackers won't risk breaking into your building to mess with your firmware.

But as I stated above they don't need to. The systems doesn't need to be connected to the net to be vulnerable. You don't need to get all the way there, and you don't even need to be there yourself as some mission impossible spy. you just need to get the worm 90% of the way there and some guy doing system upgrades with all the right clearance will do the work for you when he plugs in that USB stick he's carrying around system updates on.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
But as I stated above they don't need to. The systems doesn't need to be connected to the net to be vulnerable. You don't need to get all the way there, and you don't even need to be there yourself as some mission impossible spy. you just need to get the worm 90% of the way there and some guy doing system upgrades with all the right clearance will do the work for you when he plugs in that USB stick he's carrying around system updates on.


Most embedded systems are safe from this kind of attack because they can't be updated by USB or from just running a command on a network. The majority of the older and current embedded gear makes use of physical connectors on the hardware to perform the updates. The connectors to update embedded hardware use connections like JTAG which means you need physical access to the hardware , the correct programming adapters, and a laptop with the correct software running. The other popular way to do more modern embedded hardware updates is to use a bootloader.

A bootloader is a small piece of code that resides at the very beginning of the firmware. On start-up the mcu will run the bootloader code before doing anything else, it then will wait for a specific command and if it doesn't receive it in say , 5 seconds, it will proceed to load the main firmware. The bootloader code itself can be set so it has to be done locally with the JTAG unit so someone can't just replace your code nor can they download your code while the main firmware is running. The flash chips have hardware read and write protection that can be set to block any reading after the bootloader has loaded the main firmware.

To update the firmware, you reset the device, wait for the bootloader to load then send it the correct string to halt the firmware loading. In bootloader mode you then issue the commands to update the firmware. This is easy to protect too because all you have to do is set up the bootloader to only accept firmware with your unique key, these keys can be 256 bits in length.

To physically protect the chips the flash can also be set to be unreadable even if you physically remove the flash chip and place it in a flash chip programmer. The solutions to protecting embedded gear are already in place, the problem is engineers not using them . It comes back to the same thing as normal pc security. If engineers are not going to enable security features, are going to leave passwords at defaults, then nothing can protect devices.

A good example of security done right is directTV. Directv had trouble from the time they started offering service with people pirating tv channels. Their solution was to use smart cards, basically small computer chips on a plastic card that would hold the users information and whether they could watch a channel. Hackers quickly overcame each revision of the cards. For years the company struggled to block them out until they finally hit on the solution, don't use off the shelf software and hardware, create your own in house.

Now they had a truly difficult product to hack because there was no public documentation of the methods used and security was tightened from allowing anyone at a manufacturing plant to gain information to just allowing those who need to know. It has been several years since Directv switched over to this practice and nobody has cracked it yet. The market for pirate cards or boxes is in the millions of dollars and people have poured hundreds of thousands into reverse engineering the protocols and hardware yet it remains secure.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
I didn't really read all that but my point is this: a cyber attack can be done clandestinely so it is hard to trace. Then sending in the Marines, as you say, is going to be really hard to justify. Case in point: Stuxnet. It destroyed their centerfuges but they couldn't retaliate openly, so the army was null at that point
yeah so what?
they fix the problem, and they begin doing it again. This time with better security maybe.
You haven't solved shit.

You can cut off electricity and water with hacker attacks. But they'll get solved over time, and you won't have conquered anything (resources or whatever).
Also guerilla ppl live in the jungle without any infrastucture.
How you gonna solve that with hacks?
 

rivan

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2003
9,677
3
81
Amen!

And I'll extend this from the "cloud" to just "networking" in general. It sometimes seems to me that IT people want to network everything just so that they can monitor everything from their desktop PC and never have to get out of their office chairs. :(

Or looking at it from another angle, when it's time to cut costs, centralized monitoring of X devices takes a lot less time than a monkey walking from unit to unit.

Network everything = lower overhead.

Not that I don't agree with you, I just don't think it's as simple as you put it.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
why is everything connect to www anyways?? can you have a facility and specially these machines not connected to www and just have once console to control it? after all decentralized network is the reason why Galactica survived...

Let us not forget that BSG was a documentary about factual, historical events. There is much to learn from our ancestors' mistakes!
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,606
785
136
The problem though is that some of these systems like the power distribution network is so overburdened and antiquated that it might as well be broken. So while introducing new tech to these areas may open up more security worries they would also massively improve their operation. The smart grid may indeed be a national security risk but not having it is also holding back long term growth and development.

I'll be interested in learning what you think the "smart grid" consists off, as well as how the capabilities of the "smart grid" will "massively improve their operation" and how the lack of a "smart grid" is holding back "long term growth and development".

"Smart grid" is a poorly defined catch-all term applied to all sorts of distributed monitoring and control technologies that can be applied to the distribution networks (the fundamental workings of which are unchanged). The value of applying these technologies is far from being firmly established, as also are its attendent costs and risks. Aside from possible reduction in utility operating costs (for meter reading and switching procedures), the biggest use may be allowing utility control of customer loads (in order to "shave peak loads" and offset the minute-by-minute unpredictability of renewable energy sources like wind and solar). It will be interesting to see to what degree utility customers will be willing to have their ability to use electricity somewhat restricted in return for somewhat lower electricity rates.

Don't take this to mean that I am against implementing new technologies on the distribution system. I'm just somewhat appalled the media hype promoting "smart grid" and am virtually certain that more is being promised than will be delivered.