Ha! Take that affirmative action

[manly]

TheDingo,

I don't disagree with most of your thoughts, but a question to you. Where do you think your family would be today if your parents were African American growing up in the South?

AA isn't about creating equality; it's about making sure everybody who wants to succeed is afforded a roughly equal opportunity to do so. Obviously, this being America, many people will still be left behind, regardless of how well AA works in any given situation.

Furthermore, you've created a completely simplistic example. We aren't talking about secretaries applying at the KKK. We're talking about the average U.S. corporation where there is often a wide variety of rank employees, but much less so in the executive positions.


gopunk,

No offense to you, but you're apparently one of the Asian Americans who doesn't seem to care enough that your family's situation today was greatly influenced by the Civil Rights Movement.

I more or less agree with you that admission and hiring should be based on merit. However, that cuts both ways. We don't live in a perfect world, and you can't just take an ideal golden rule as practical policy. If it weren't for AA, then discrimination and racism would still be a core component of hiring decisions. How is that fair in the idealistic sense that you advocate?

And if it is unfair, will such practices end if we all just persevere and ignore the inequities?

I think what you're implying is that American universities/corporations today are "good enough". I say it isn't, and even if it were, that still ignores how we got to where we are today. If you believe AA is unnecessary today, that's fine. But Asians wouldn't have achieved all the university degrees they have earned in the past 30 years without it being there in years (long) past.

As an example of AA, John Nason was a Swarthmore College president who essentially "smuggled" Japanese Americans from WWII internment camps into liberal arts colleges that would take them. It's work like that that exemplifies the spirit of leveling the playing field.

 

[gopunk]

No offense to you, but you're apparently one of the Asian Americans who doesn't seem to care enough that your family's situation today was greatly influenced by the Civil Rights Movement.

care to explain? i fail to see appreciation of not being discriminated against to have any relationship with the advocation of discrimination (aa). civil *rights* do not entail civil *privileges*.

I more or less agree with you that admission and hiring should be based on merit. However, that cuts both ways. We don't live in a perfect world, and you can't just take an ideal golden rule as practical policy.

maybe we shouldn't be looking towards rules as a means to fix all our problems.

If it weren't for AA, then discrimination and racism would still be a core component of hiring decisions. How is that fair in the idealistic sense that you advocate?

it's not, but you can't abolish cultural racism by replacing it with institutionalized racism.

And if it is unfair, will such practices end if we all just persevere and ignore the inequities?

it's not about persevering, it's about proving them wrong. this comes about from change, not maintaining the status quo, or preserving, as it were.

I think what you're implying is that American universities/corporations today are "good enough". I say it isn't, and even if it were, that still ignores how we got to where we are today. If you believe AA is unnecessary today, that's fine.

that's basically what i'm saying. what happened in the past is really of no concern for the purposes of this discussion, since no decisions made today can affect what happened in the past. i don't think we should keep AA around simply because at one point it had a useful purpose.

But Asians wouldn't have achieved all the university degrees they have earned in the past 30 years without it being there in years (long) past.

i disagree, i don't know a single asian that has gotten a degree or a job because of affirmative action... they get degrees and jobs because they succeed. asians have been successful well before affirmative action was in place.

 

[TheDingo]

<< TheDingo,

I don't disagree with most of your thoughts, but a question to you. Where do you think your family would be today if your parents were African American growing up in the South?

AA isn't about creating equality; it's about making sure everybody who wants to succeed is afforded a roughly equal opportunity to do so. Obviously, this being America, many people will still be left behind, regardless of how well AA works in any given situation.

Furthermore, you've created a completely simplistic example. We aren't talking about secretaries applying at the KKK. We're talking about the average U.S. corporation where there is often a wide variety of rank employees, but much less so in the executive positions.
>>



Thank god it's simplistic, this is a discussion board and anything beyond that would be even more of a waste of time

If my parents were black and from the south I would have faith that they still would have become what they are today, though they might have had to move.

But you missed my point, I used the KKK as an obvious example. Do you REALLY want to be accepted to a job because the employer is forced by the government to do so? And at the same time, this place would have discriminated against you, do you really think they will change their mind because they are required by law to hire you? Seeing as how that won't happen, do you really want to work for these racist people?

Now "creating equality" and "afforded a roughly equal opportunity to suceed" are the same in this country. In the eyes of the government, everyone really is the same. You can still drive and go to the movies, etc. etc. The only thing that really is in the way of social equality is racism in private schooling and work. AA does NOT give that equality, but rather just forces racism towards those not under AA's umbrela. How is that fair and how is that "making sure everybody who wants to succeed is afforded a roughly equal opportunity to do so"?

 

[dukdukgoos]

Another triumph for racism and inequality in Dubya's America

 

[Capn]

"Another triumph for racism and inequality in Dubya's America "

Unless Bush appointed that judge, which I doubt, that comment is just stupid.

Anyhow...

I do not have a problem at all really with giving special consideration to college applicants based on the school/region/parent's economic situation. I do have a problem giving special consideration based on race. Basically I think it is equally hard for a white/black/latino/asian/whatever kid from a poor area with a failing school to succeed.

 

[datalink7]

<< "Another triumph for racism and inequality in Dubya's America "

Unless Bush appointed that judge, which I doubt, that comment is just stupid.

Anyhow...

I do not have a problem at all really with giving special consideration to college applicants based on the school/region/parent's economic situation. I do have a problem giving special consideration based on race. Basically I think it is equally hard for a white/black/latino/asian/whatever kid from a poor area with a failing school to succeed. >>



I agree. Affermative Action type of policy should be based on economic situations of the person. If this happens to go in favor of the black population, then so be it. But then it will be based on them being poor instead of them being black. It still helps them out and then isn't racially based (so it will help out other poor people as well).

 

[manly]

gopunk,

That's because you're probably looking at our generation of Asian Americans. If you're saying no Asians have ever gotten through a door because of affirmative action, then I can only laugh.

There was a time when Asian representation at U.S. universities was extremely low, and that didn't change just through hard work alone. Obviously, a college degree is one crucial factor in eventual career path as well. And a factor in the well-being of the next generation.

What I mean by lack of appreciation of history is that you seemingly support today's conditions because Asian Americans have more or less succeeded. What if you were growing up 40 years ago? One just has to accept the system one lives in, warts and all? Wouldn't you say part of what makes America successful is being able to fix inequities? Without the Civil Rights movement, where would Asian Americans with their cultural values for education be today?

I don't think you can abolish cultural racism, but arguably the playing field would be even worse if everyone is forced to just play the hand they're dealt. I see your point if conditions are "good enough," then it's possible to overcome inequities by having stronger determination, and that AA is not necessary. I admitted as much earlier when citing that Asians receive no preferential treatment in college admissions. And that AA is not a permanent "solution".

However, I'm not sure you can simultaneously argue that AA is just plain wrong, but society would be where it is today without proactive efforts to combat discrimination in the last 30 years.

The bottom line is that in theory, if there is discrimination in any given situation, AA is meant to offset those inequities. It's not meant to cure society of racism. Privileges would imply a person to unnecessarily benefit from preferential treatment, which obviously can be a probem with AA as well. I don't agree that AA is wrong or doesn't work in practice though. Nor have I ever believed that AA is meant to be permanent.

I think our disagreement is partly because you're looking at it from an employer's standpoint. I admit that if I were making a hiring decision, I wouldn't want to choose a lesser candidate simply because he was an "unrepresented minority" applicant. However, I can see AA as being a practical policy with positive net benefits, whereas you seem to have more faith self-determination alone, against all odds.

 

[dukdukgoos]

In general, Republican administrations have tried to destroy affirmative action, while Democratics ones have tried to uphold it. Even if Dubya didn't appoint the judge, Republican administrations have historically waged war or the rights of minorities, women, workers, and the poor. This is just another example of the small encroachments that will slowly destroy equality and freedom in America.

While I agree that poor people regardless of race have a difficult time, until there is hard, statistical evidence that the wrongs of past and present racial discrimination have been corrected, AA is an essential part of maintaining equality in America.

 

[b0mbrman]

 

[Capn]

"In general, Republican administrations have tried to destroy affirmative action, while Democratics ones have tried to uphold it. Even if Dubya didn't appoint the judge, Republican administrations have historically waged war or the rights of minorities, women, workers, and the poor. This is just another example of the small encroachments that will slowly destroy equality and freedom in America."

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, it does not address the issue at all that you tried to blame the president because of the actions of a judge. Thus, it was still a stupid comment.

 

[Balthazar]

<< If only the business world would hire people based on how they can do the job instead of who they know or where they went to college! >>



Like that matters, in that case you have just as high odds of getting shafter regardless your background.

 

[Balthazar]

<< I am pretty ambivalent when it comes to AA. Advancement should be based on achievement, not ascription. Therefore, affirmative action is inherently unfair. On the other side, haven't we been practicing affirmative action for centuries? It's only been in the last 35-40 years that African-Americans have gotten the same guaranteed legal/civil rights as whites. European immigrants got large land grants when colonizing America; African-Americans were sent here as slaves and forced to raise capital for other people. No one complained about affirmative action (for whites) back then.

So when determining social policy you have to take into account history, no matter how irrelevant it seems to you now. >>



I have to disagree with you there, what happened in the past is to be learned from, not used as a basis of treatment in current society.
The goal you SHOULD be aiming for is fairness for all, keep in mind alot of white people died for this country to break free from England.
The point is you could sit there using a races previous history as bargaining chips for current practices, or you could just say "whats past is past, mistakes have been made, everyone has had trials, and injustice, lets move forward with everyone equal.". And maybe you just might get somewhere.

 

[dukdukgoos]

Dubya and the Republican party are ultimately responsible for encroachments in AA laws. I stand by my statement. It would be interesting to see who appointed the judge though...

 

[Balthazar]

<< i always bring up the asians argument. everyone says thats not fair, to compare other minorities to them. why not? i dont get it.

my roomate is black his parents are from nigeria and he was born here. I am from the philippines and my parents are from there and i was born there. I came over when i was 6. we were freaking poor. my parents work hard, and they are worth probably over a million dollars now. his parents worked hard, and they are doing great. they were immigrants too. we both go to ucla. that required work. does it matter that we are chinese or black. based on my limited experience, you do well if you work hard and work smart. crazy concept i know. but he says that people have a negative perception of black people and that like aa is ok to make up for that. man thats total bs. Im like change the perception then.


i dunno , people get mad about stereotypes and perceptions and well, outside of some really old people who are really racist and will probably die soon anyways we should be ok in the future. i mean really if there are enough people in your race who make an ass out of themselves that other people notice, maybe you should stop these people from making an ass outof themselves and causing this stereotype. whatever..... give everything 50 years, everyone will be green, and we'll all be ok >>



Or better yet, if a they make an ass of themselves, show everyone around you what your made of, live by example. I'm white and because of such I feel, I guess obligated to be open minded, to not slack on it and risk becoming a racist or in anyway not giving someone a chance based on something so stupid and superficial as race or gender.

 

[IGBT]

Affirmative action IS racial profiling. No controversy on this. Only denial.

 

[Balt]

<< In general, Republican administrations have tried to destroy affirmative action, while Democratics ones have tried to uphold it. Even if Dubya didn't appoint the judge, Republican administrations have historically waged war or the rights of minorities, women, workers, and the poor. This is just another example of the small encroachments that will slowly destroy equality and freedom in America.

While I agree that poor people regardless of race have a difficult time, until there is hard, statistical evidence that the wrongs of past and present racial discrimination have been corrected, AA is an essential part of maintaining equality in America. >>

In my experience if people grow up hearing something is owed to them, they will believe it and expect it. If they grow up knowing they will have to work hard to get what they want (just like the other 99% of the population), they will do exactly that. One of my roommates is a perfect example of that. His parents told him from his childhood that if he wanted to go to college HE was going to have to pay for it, and that's EXACTLY what he did. In fact, he's going to be making a lot more money than I am when we get out of college (just as he deserves to).

 

[LethalWolfe]

<< Another triumph for racism and inequality in Dubya's America >>



Uh... yeah... It's not racist to hire a an under qualified minority over a qualified white guy, but it is racist to hire an under qualified white guy over a qualified minority?

Instead of spending money and making sure that AA is being followed I think that we should scrap AA and spend money to make sure that people/companies/institutions are investigated and, if need be, punished if they are practicing discrimination.


Lethal

 

[manly]

<<
It's because things were *unequal* back then. The Civil Rights movement made them *equal*. Now that things are equal and Asian Ams are succeeding.

Why should African Americans get a better chance because they can't make it in an equal world? >>



That's a blatantly racist opinion that I won't even respond to.

If you honestly believe society is equal as you suggest, then I'll leave you in your blissfully ignorant state of mind.

Those who argue that history should not be an important factor for current policy miss the point. Nobody is claiming you responsible for slavery, racism or discrimination. However, as yellowperil argued, the state of conditions today is predicated on decades of discrimination, which is still is alive in America.

 

[LH]

The slave card is just BS. Every race has been enslaved, some still are in parts of the world. AA is reverse racisim. I bet there are some in this thread so narrowminded that they think racisim works one way. Afraid to tell but its a two way street. Im a middle class white guy, and well Ive had hispanic and blacks be racist towards me.

 

[b0mbrman]

<<

<<
It's because things were *unequal* back then. The Civil Rights movement made them *equal*. Now that things are equal and Asian Ams are succeeding.

Why should African Americans get a better chance because they can't make it in an equal world? >>



That's a blatantly racist opinion that I won't even respond to.

If you honestly believe society is equal as you suggest, then I'll leave you in your blissfully ignorant state of mind. >>


It's equal enough. If you want to claim that it's not equal, then you'd only have an argument if trying to prove that it's Blacks who get equal treatment.

But let's pretend that we're all just blind and that Asian Americans really do get special treatment somehow. The difference is insanely small in proportion to the rapid advancement of Asian Ams of late.

 

[LethalWolfe]

<< AA is reverse racisim. >>



Pet peeve here. There is no such thing as "reverse racisim" there is only racisim.


Lethal

 

[dukdukgoos]

<< keep in mind alot of white people died for this country to break free from England >>



A lot of black people did too. The Revolutionary Army was actually quite integrated. It was only later racist practices that led to blacks not being allowed to fight or segregated in all-black units.



<< If they grow up knowing they will have to work hard to get what they want (just like the other 99% of the population), they will do exactly that. >>



Unfortunately, REALITY is that a large number of people DO work hard and don't get what they want, or even need to live with any sort of dignity. The number of working poor (people who work full time and still live below the poverty line) is growing rapidly as the gap between rich and poor rises. Just because your and your roommates families are doing well doesn't mean that everyone's is or that remedies shouldn't be taken to repair inequities in the system.

Arguments based on "your experience" are irrelavent. Stick to arguments based on infomation that can be analyzed objectively.

 

[melly]

<< A federal judge struck down the Army?s equal opportunities promotion process yesterday, saying the policy gives undue preference to women and minorities at the expense of white, male officers.
>>



undue preference, i think not. i'm not a femi-nazi, just someone who wants women to be given equal preference.

 

[Balt]

<<

<< keep in mind alot of white people died for this country to break free from England >>



A lot of black did too. The Revolutionary Army was actually quite integrated. It was only later racist practices that led to blacks not being allowed to fight or segregated in all-black units.



<< If they grow up knowing they will have to work hard to get what they want (just like the other 99% of the population), they will do exactly that. >>



Unfortunately, REALITY is that a large number of people DO work hard and don't get what they want, or even need to live with any sort of dignity. The number of working poor (people who work full time and still live below the poverty line) is growing rapidly as the gap between rich and poor rises. Just because your and your roommates families are doing well doesn't mean that everyone's is or that remedies shouldn't be taken to repair inequities in the system.

Arguments based on "your experience" are irrelavent. Stick to arguments based on infomation that can be analyzed objectively. >>



Okay, chum. How about this information: The rich-poor gap is growing among WHITE people too. Therefore that argument is completely irrelevant as it applies to the AA issue. Don't even try to pretend that the rich-poor gap is a racial issue.

 

[Geekbabe]

<<

<< A federal judge struck down the Army?s equal opportunities promotion process yesterday, saying the policy gives undue preference to women and minorities at the expense of white, male officers.
>>



undue preference, i think not. i'm not a femi-nazi, just someone who wants women to be given equal preference. >>



Best way to do that is to be the best person for the job.

Melly IT is providing endless opportunity for women, hell I'm already being headhunted and seeing some salary ranges that give me nosebleeds. You don't need a ton of upper body stregth to press "enter" just enough gray matter between your ears to know when to do so. We can best the boyz on this and run circles around many of em in people and communication skills, wmen are do very well in college and women are starting their own companies in record numbers,what do we need with AA laws ?