A federal judge struck down the Army?s equal opportunities promotion process yesterday, saying the policy gives undue preference to women and minorities at the expense of white, male officers.
Full Story
Lethal
Full Story
Lethal
Ha! Take that affirmative action
- Thread starter LethalWolfe
- Start date
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,502
- 1
- 81
If only the business world would hire people based on how they can do the job instead of who they know or where they went to college!
- Nov 27, 1999
- 64,840
- 377
- 126
<< If only the business world would hire people based on how they can do the job instead of who they know or where they went to college! >>
That is a very interesting statement Dr Smooth, make me think about where to finish college, private or city run
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,502
- 1
- 81
The most of the people who run my company have MBA's from Ivy League or other big named schools. Also my company mainly recruits from Ivy League schools
The old guys at work told me that until about ten years ago that the company hired and promoted mostly white guys. Basically the white guys who ran the company hired and promoted people they were most comfortable with which were other white guys who had similar backgrounds. Women, Jews and Blacks were hired in small numbers but were past over when it came to promotions. People from the Pacific area or Spanish speaking areas were not hire at all. Now they make an effort to have the organization looked like our country.
One of the old guys told me that when he was hired you would not get promoted if your last ended in a vowel.
The old guys at work told me that until about ten years ago that the company hired and promoted mostly white guys. Basically the white guys who ran the company hired and promoted people they were most comfortable with which were other white guys who had similar backgrounds. Women, Jews and Blacks were hired in small numbers but were past over when it came to promotions. People from the Pacific area or Spanish speaking areas were not hire at all. Now they make an effort to have the organization looked like our country.
One of the old guys told me that when he was hired you would not get promoted if your last ended in a vowel.
I am pretty ambivalent when it comes to AA. Advancement should be based on achievement, not ascription. Therefore, affirmative action is inherently unfair. On the other side, haven't we been practicing affirmative action for centuries? It's only been in the last 35-40 years that African-Americans have gotten the same guaranteed legal/civil rights as whites. European immigrants got large land grants when colonizing America; African-Americans were sent here as slaves and forced to raise capital for other people. No one complained about affirmative action (for whites) back then.
So when determining social policy you have to take into account history, no matter how irrelevant it seems to you now.
So when determining social policy you have to take into account history, no matter how irrelevant it seems to you now.
i always bring up the asians argument. everyone says thats not fair, to compare other minorities to them. why not? i dont get it.
my roomate is black his parents are from nigeria and he was born here. I am from the philippines and my parents are from there and i was born there. I came over when i was 6. we were freaking poor. my parents work hard, and they are worth probably over a million dollars now. his parents worked hard, and they are doing great. they were immigrants too. we both go to ucla. that required work. does it matter that we are chinese or black. based on my limited experience, you do well if you work hard and work smart. crazy concept i know. but he says that people have a negative perception of black people and that like aa is ok to make up for that. man thats total bs. Im like change the perception then.
i dunno , people get mad about stereotypes and perceptions and well, outside of some really old people who are really racist and will probably die soon anyways we should be ok in the future. i mean really if there are enough people in your race who make an ass out of themselves that other people notice, maybe you should stop these people from making an ass outof themselves and causing this stereotype. whatever..... give everything 50 years, everyone will be green, and we'll all be ok
my roomate is black his parents are from nigeria and he was born here. I am from the philippines and my parents are from there and i was born there. I came over when i was 6. we were freaking poor. my parents work hard, and they are worth probably over a million dollars now. his parents worked hard, and they are doing great. they were immigrants too. we both go to ucla. that required work. does it matter that we are chinese or black. based on my limited experience, you do well if you work hard and work smart. crazy concept i know. but he says that people have a negative perception of black people and that like aa is ok to make up for that. man thats total bs. Im like change the perception then.
i dunno , people get mad about stereotypes and perceptions and well, outside of some really old people who are really racist and will probably die soon anyways we should be ok in the future. i mean really if there are enough people in your race who make an ass out of themselves that other people notice, maybe you should stop these people from making an ass outof themselves and causing this stereotype. whatever..... give everything 50 years, everyone will be green, and we'll all be ok
<< you do well if you work hard and work smart. >>
yep, i've seen every race and religion do well when they want to. success comes from desire, not from government compensations.
<< What of it?
Up till 20 years ago, Asian Americans as a big group didn't even exist as far as Americans were concerned. Loads of us came with almost nothing and worked hard as hell to make something of ourselves.
We never needed special treatment, never expected special treatment, and we're doing alright for ourselves just competing within the opportunity that America provides. >>
If you compare the conditions of settlement of Asian Americans vs. African Americans, there are key differences. Asian Americans settled voluntarily (for the most part) and were able to begin producing capital immediately for themselves. Even though they did suffer discrimination in the late 19th/early 20th century, it was not as prolonged and pervasive as discrimination against African Americans.
Hypothetically, what if all Asian immigrants were required to perform ~220 years of slave labor before starting over from scratch? In addition, afterwards they could be denied university admissions, housing opportunities (even if they were financially qualified), and job promotions based on their race for another 100 years before the state recognizes their equal and unalienable rights. Would it be fair to attribute a lack of success to laziness and a culture of poverty about 40 years later? While these things are certainly factors, they are not the core reason. Yet in spite of all of this the number of middle and upper class African Americans is growing, and the gap in income and infant mortality between blacks and whites is closing, which testifies to their perserverance.
I've never been a fan of affirmative action. I think companies/institutions should be punished/fined for practicing discrimination, but I do not think that companies/institutions should forced to higher possibly inferior workers just to meet a quota.
Anyway... affirmative action was set in place to help minorities yes? Well, women out number men in the US, so where's my affirmative action?
Anyway... affirmative action was set in place to help minorities yes? Well, women out number men in the US, so where's my affirmative action?
<<
<< What of it?
Up till 20 years ago, Asian Americans as a big group didn't even exist as far as Americans were concerned. Loads of us came with almost nothing and worked hard as hell to make something of ourselves.
We never needed special treatment, never expected special treatment, and we're doing alright for ourselves just competing within the opportunity that America provides. >>
If you compare the conditions of settlement of Asian Americans vs. African Americans, there are key differences. Asian Americans settled voluntarily (for the most part) and were able to begin producing capital immediately for themselves. Even though they did suffer discrimination in the late 19th/early 20th century, it was not as prolonged and pervasive as discrimination against African Americans.
Hypothetically, what if all Asian immigrants were required to perform ~220 years of slave labor before starting over from scratch? In addition, afterwards they could be denied university admissions, housing opportunities (even if they were financially qualified), and job promotions based on their race for another 100 years before the state recognizes their equal and unalienable rights. Would it be fair to attribute a lack of success to laziness and a culture of poverty about 40 years later? While these things are certainly factors, they are not the core reason. Yet in spite of all of this the number of middle and upper class African Americans is growing, and the gap in income and infant mortality between blacks and whites is closing, which testifies to their perserverance. >>
very well said....there should be affirmative action to lift up the african-americans to mainstream america....but the quota should be kept at a low...arent they like 15% of the population?
yellow...
i agree with you.
however, when will it end? how long can a group of people say "we went throgh this" or "we wen through that"?
dont get me wrong.....i agree with you......when will the madness stop!!!???
i agree with you.
however, when will it end? how long can a group of people say "we went throgh this" or "we wen through that"?
dont get me wrong.....i agree with you......when will the madness stop!!!???
One of the main reasons I think Asian American are able to become successful is because they save most of their income. Even if they work minium wages, they still find a way to save part of their incomes.
<< A federal judge struck down the Army?s equal opportunities promotion process yesterday, saying the policy gives undue preference to women and minorities at the expense of white, male officers.
Full Story
Lethal >>
EXCELLENT
If you compare the conditions of settlement of Asian Americans vs. African Americans, there are key differences. Asian Americans settled voluntarily (for the most part) and were able to begin producing capital immediately for themselves. Even though they did suffer discrimination in the late 19th/early 20th century, it was not as prolonged and pervasive as discrimination against African Americans.
the *reason* asians don't suffer as much discrimination is *because* they are successful. the only way to change stereotypes and thus discrimination is to consistently prove them wrong.
Hypothetically, what if all Asian immigrants were required to perform ~220 years of slave labor before starting over from scratch? In addition, afterwards they could be denied university admissions, housing opportunities (even if they were financially qualified), and job promotions based on their race for another 100 years before the state recognizes their equal and unalienable rights. Would it be fair to attribute a lack of success to laziness and a culture of poverty about 40 years later?
nearly every culture on this earth has at one point been subjected to slavery... yet we somehow move on... btw, what if all african americans were subjected to starvation, totalitarianism, war, etc? and they had to escape a regime, swim to some friendly nation, and scrape up enough money to sit on a crappy boat that might not even make it here? and what if they didn't even speak the language, were ALSO denied admissions, housing opportunities, jobs, etc based on their race?
the *reason* asians don't suffer as much discrimination is *because* they are successful. the only way to change stereotypes and thus discrimination is to consistently prove them wrong.
Hypothetically, what if all Asian immigrants were required to perform ~220 years of slave labor before starting over from scratch? In addition, afterwards they could be denied university admissions, housing opportunities (even if they were financially qualified), and job promotions based on their race for another 100 years before the state recognizes their equal and unalienable rights. Would it be fair to attribute a lack of success to laziness and a culture of poverty about 40 years later?
nearly every culture on this earth has at one point been subjected to slavery... yet we somehow move on... btw, what if all african americans were subjected to starvation, totalitarianism, war, etc? and they had to escape a regime, swim to some friendly nation, and scrape up enough money to sit on a crappy boat that might not even make it here? and what if they didn't even speak the language, were ALSO denied admissions, housing opportunities, jobs, etc based on their race?
One of the main reasons I think Asian American are able to become successful is because they save most of their income. Even if they work minium wages, they still find a way to save part of their incomes.
well, in addition to that, i think the *largest* reason for asian success is the emphasis on education. poor families can succeed in later generations if an emphasis on education is placed. you see this with families of all nationalities... some poor ass family, but the parents make sure the kids go to school. guess what? they succeed.
well, in addition to that, i think the *largest* reason for asian success is the emphasis on education. poor families can succeed in later generations if an emphasis on education is placed. you see this with families of all nationalities... some poor ass family, but the parents make sure the kids go to school. guess what? they succeed.
pyonir
Lifer
- Dec 18, 2001
- 40,856
- 311
- 126
yellow you forgot to mention the fact that concentration camps existed (though many from the US don't like to refer to them as Concentration camps) in the late 1930s early 40s where Asian-Americans were forced into camps solely based on looking Asian just because we were at war with Japan (among others). Don't you think that might have set them back a few years?
tkim,
It isn't madness at all. Affirmative action isn't meant to disenfranchise the status quo; it's meant to level the playing field for all participants. It isn't a permanent solution.
If you look at Asian admission to major American universities, you'll see that there is no preferential treatment given anymore. AA is a policy decision that admits that history has created fundamental differences of opportunity. In fact, it's extremely difficult for Asian students to be admitted to the cream of the crop universities these days.
I believe one thing most Asian Americans don't realize is how much we've benefited from the work of Martin Luther King during the Civil Rights Era.
Yes, education is ingrained into many Asian cultures from early childhoold, but that doesn't mean anybody who doesn't "make it" didn't deserve to make it. Honestly, some folks never get the chance. If you question my opinion here, just ask yourself if there's a difference between attending a run-down public school vs. attending private academies from day one.
Finally, I said it in another thread, but the "work hard" argument is just a way of wrongly putting down people who haven't achieved the same measure of success in society. Everybody understands that most lazy folks won't get very far.
However, there are millions of working poor in America who I assert work just as hard as anybody else, regardless of income. Many of them are in the service economy that pays a pittance compared to executive compensation. Sure, many don't have the education for higher-paying professional jobs, but don't dismiss them as lazy or without work ethic. On a similar note, I disrepect anyone who gives the tired argument that being a corporate exec is an incredibly difficult job that demands the compensation multiple that we see. Simply put, compensation in the U.S. is the most inequitable in the developed world, and a big reason is the old-boys network that exists amongst executives and the board. There's a famous quote from J.P. Morgan that says executives should be compensated at some (maybe 50X) multiple of regular employees. Right now, the multiple is ridiculously higher than his quote.
Not to mention executives who do a lousy job are never held accountable in any fashion. If you are I screw up seriously on a job, we'd be shown the door immediately.
It isn't madness at all. Affirmative action isn't meant to disenfranchise the status quo; it's meant to level the playing field for all participants. It isn't a permanent solution.
If you look at Asian admission to major American universities, you'll see that there is no preferential treatment given anymore. AA is a policy decision that admits that history has created fundamental differences of opportunity. In fact, it's extremely difficult for Asian students to be admitted to the cream of the crop universities these days.
I believe one thing most Asian Americans don't realize is how much we've benefited from the work of Martin Luther King during the Civil Rights Era.
Yes, education is ingrained into many Asian cultures from early childhoold, but that doesn't mean anybody who doesn't "make it" didn't deserve to make it. Honestly, some folks never get the chance. If you question my opinion here, just ask yourself if there's a difference between attending a run-down public school vs. attending private academies from day one.
Finally, I said it in another thread, but the "work hard" argument is just a way of wrongly putting down people who haven't achieved the same measure of success in society. Everybody understands that most lazy folks won't get very far.
However, there are millions of working poor in America who I assert work just as hard as anybody else, regardless of income. Many of them are in the service economy that pays a pittance compared to executive compensation. Sure, many don't have the education for higher-paying professional jobs, but don't dismiss them as lazy or without work ethic. On a similar note, I disrepect anyone who gives the tired argument that being a corporate exec is an incredibly difficult job that demands the compensation multiple that we see. Simply put, compensation in the U.S. is the most inequitable in the developed world, and a big reason is the old-boys network that exists amongst executives and the board. There's a famous quote from J.P. Morgan that says executives should be compensated at some (maybe 50X) multiple of regular employees. Right now, the multiple is ridiculously higher than his quote.
Not to mention executives who do a lousy job are never held accountable in any fashion. If you are I screw up seriously on a job, we'd be shown the door immediately.
Unfortunatly, racism is everywhere. I have many problems with affirmative action, but I think it is hilarious that minorities complain that there are business that only hire white men. That is very true, but do you really want to work for these ignorant people? I mean, if the KKK had a job opening for a secretary and were forced to hire a minority because of affirmative action, would you really want to take that job?
Affirmative action is a self defeating act. It is an attempt at equality, but it in fact forces companies to pay specific attention to race and sex. The only thing that will rid us of racism is time and diversity. I don't care how racist your parents might be, if you grow up among a diverse group you will be very open.
The other thing I find funny is people complaining about how "their people are poor." Sure, as a whole most minorities are pretty poor, but it's not because of anyone holding them back. It's actually because they got a late start. The "whites" are all European, commonly from families that came over here poor and desperate (like any minority) hundreds of years ago. Thats a lot of time for a family to generate wealth. And those first couple generations had to bust their a$$ to afford their shacks, like many minorities today. *Note that for the african americans they didn't truely get their freedom until a few decades ago, which is when they started.
My parents are both white, and they started their life together at 19, unemployed, and almost completely broke. Yet they were able to accumulate considerable wealth through hard work, dedication, and one of the few countries with all this opertunity.
Affirmative action is a self defeating act. It is an attempt at equality, but it in fact forces companies to pay specific attention to race and sex. The only thing that will rid us of racism is time and diversity. I don't care how racist your parents might be, if you grow up among a diverse group you will be very open.
The other thing I find funny is people complaining about how "their people are poor." Sure, as a whole most minorities are pretty poor, but it's not because of anyone holding them back. It's actually because they got a late start. The "whites" are all European, commonly from families that came over here poor and desperate (like any minority) hundreds of years ago. Thats a lot of time for a family to generate wealth. And those first couple generations had to bust their a$$ to afford their shacks, like many minorities today. *Note that for the african americans they didn't truely get their freedom until a few decades ago, which is when they started.
My parents are both white, and they started their life together at 19, unemployed, and almost completely broke. Yet they were able to accumulate considerable wealth through hard work, dedication, and one of the few countries with all this opertunity.
gopunk,
Emphasis in education is great.
But if the education provided is simply inequitable, do you just ignore that? Nobody's saying the rich shouldn't have the benefits of prep schools if they so choose; but I can't defend the state of public education throughout America. From experience, I know what the best LAUSD education provides, and shudder to think what the worst is like.
pyonir,
There's no question that Japanese Americans (who had lived in the U.S. for multiple generations) were set back severely by the internment camps. In fact, there's quite a long history of discrimination against Asian immigrants to America; history that simply isn't taught in U.S. grade schools. But what's your point?
You're confused if you're insinuating that Asians have persevered past that low point, because most Asians living in the U.S. today belong to a wave of immigration that started decades after WWII (late 60s I believe). And even for the Japanese Americans that did persevere and succeed, the federal government still (eventually) recognized that internment was wrongful, and provided a token payout to those who were interned.
Emphasis in education is great.
But if the education provided is simply inequitable, do you just ignore that? Nobody's saying the rich shouldn't have the benefits of prep schools if they so choose; but I can't defend the state of public education throughout America. From experience, I know what the best LAUSD education provides, and shudder to think what the worst is like.
pyonir,
There's no question that Japanese Americans (who had lived in the U.S. for multiple generations) were set back severely by the internment camps. In fact, there's quite a long history of discrimination against Asian immigrants to America; history that simply isn't taught in U.S. grade schools. But what's your point?
You're confused if you're insinuating that Asians have persevered past that low point, because most Asians living in the U.S. today belong to a wave of immigration that started decades after WWII (late 60s I believe). And even for the Japanese Americans that did persevere and succeed, the federal government still (eventually) recognized that internment was wrongful, and provided a token payout to those who were interned.
It isn't madness at all. Affirmative action isn't meant to disenfranchise the status quo; it's meant to level the playing field for all participants. It isn't a permanent solution.
it is madness. people should be admitted/hired on the basis of their ability. period.
Honestly, some folks never get the chance. If you question my opinion here, just ask yourself if there's a difference between attending a run-down public school vs. attending private academies from day one.
how many asian immigrants and/or their children attend private academies from day one? i know i didn't... my parents didn't...
of course the playing field is not equal... but it's not like it was terribly equal for asian immigrants (which shows that it's not impossible to overcome the difference), and it's not like you're going to fix it willy nilly with some legislation.
it is madness. people should be admitted/hired on the basis of their ability. period.
Honestly, some folks never get the chance. If you question my opinion here, just ask yourself if there's a difference between attending a run-down public school vs. attending private academies from day one.
how many asian immigrants and/or their children attend private academies from day one? i know i didn't... my parents didn't...
of course the playing field is not equal... but it's not like it was terribly equal for asian immigrants (which shows that it's not impossible to overcome the difference), and it's not like you're going to fix it willy nilly with some legislation.
gopunk,
Emphasis in education is great.
But if the education provided is simply inequitable, do you just ignore that?
when i say "emphasis in education" i am referring to an aspect of the culture, not the quality of schooling provided by the government. when people value education, they will overcome the shortcomings of the schools by tutoring their own children. the asians didnt' succeed because they had better schools, they succeeded because they made sure their children got a good education, whether it be from the schools or from their parents.
the fundamental issue here is whether the parents
a.) recognize the need for this and
b.) have the time
in regards to b, this is why family planning needs to be emphasized more. people should not be having children until they can care for them properly godammit. as for a, i have no opinion on how that can be expediated.
Emphasis in education is great.
But if the education provided is simply inequitable, do you just ignore that?
when i say "emphasis in education" i am referring to an aspect of the culture, not the quality of schooling provided by the government. when people value education, they will overcome the shortcomings of the schools by tutoring their own children. the asians didnt' succeed because they had better schools, they succeeded because they made sure their children got a good education, whether it be from the schools or from their parents.
the fundamental issue here is whether the parents
a.) recognize the need for this and
b.) have the time
in regards to b, this is why family planning needs to be emphasized more. people should not be having children until they can care for them properly godammit. as for a, i have no opinion on how that can be expediated.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 11K
-
Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)- Started by Vattila
- Replies: 13K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 8K
-
Facebook
Twitter