Gun Control Measures

[soundforbjt]

My reason for wanting a ban on semi-autos and speed loaders is for lessening mass killings, not for suicide. Police & military would be the exceptions.

 

[ImpulsE69]

You are absolutely right. Being a gun owner, I'm also more likely to accidentally shoot myself, because obviously if I didn't have access to a gun, that risk would be 0. That being said, it's pretty easy to prevent shooting yourself.

I don't smoke and rarely drink, but somehow my risk isn't zero....but these guys don't care about that. Again, yes, all this is horrific, but the facts are they aren't killing as many people as many other things. The difference is those aren't in the news. Neither are things such as Chicago that isn't white on anything else crime. In Cali today there was Mexican who killed 2 people and injured 4 others (all Hispanic) with a machete. No ones talking about that either, and it made front page news.

I suppose the real narrative here is 'here' if it doesn't revolve around one political side blaming the others for the horrific acts of others, it isn't that important.

 

[soundforbjt]

I don't smoke and rarely drink, but somehow my risk isn't zero....but these guys don't care about that. Again, yes, all this is horrific, but the facts are they aren't killing as many people as many other things. The difference is those aren't in the news. Neither are things such as Chicago that isn't white on anything else crime. In Cali today there was Mexican who killed 2 people and injured 4 others (all Hispanic) with a machete. No ones talking about that either, and it made front page news.

It made front page news in Cali but no one is talking about it? I don't live in CA, so I never saw it. The top fives states for gun violence are all red states but no one talks about that either, Illinois was 36th, yet everyone blames Chicago.

 

[fskimospy]

That really relies heavily on correlation vs causation. There are things that you can do to greatly reduce risk (as with anything).

I don't believe that owning a gun makes me any more likely to attempt to commit suicide. I don't have any history of mental illness in myself, or my family. I DO think that access to guns (in general) makes people who DO attempt suicide much more effective. I do not think that owning a thing makes anyone significantly more likely to want to kill themselves. I will not belittle suicide victims, it's certainly an epidemic that needs to be addressed, and readily being able to access guns does improve chances of successfully doing the deed (obviously this is not something I would consider a "success"). This is where I think waiting periods and more thorough background screenings (of every purchase) would be beneficial. It's also the largest statistical component of gun deaths in this country by a pretty wide margin. I should also note that the type of gun made available here is of little consequence. The whole revolver vs semi-automatic debate is meaningless here. You can commit suicide equally as effectively with really any type of gun.

Yes, the risk factor is for completed suicide, not a suicide attempt. I agree waiting periods would be beneficial.

As far as the revolver vs semi thing, I think all handguns should be banned so I guess that covers my bases, haha.

The second aspect of this is safe gun handling and training. You can certainly reduce the risk of accidental discharge by following safe gun handling practices all the time, every time. Similar to not texting/playing on your phone while driving (or drinking and driving). If you always refrain from certain activities, you can eliminate your risk of causing certain events triggered by those activities (you can't control the activities of others). Always treat a gun as if it's loaded, always keep it pointed in a safe direction, always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, always know whats behind your target. I'm not saying that every gun owner, hunter, etc... does these things, but they are things that can be done to reduce or eliminate risk.

Accidental gun deaths only comprise about 1% of gun deaths in the US and while of course every death is a tragedy even with perfect safety precautions it wouldn’t change the number too significantly.

 

[ImpulsE69]

It made front page news in Cali but no one is talking about it? I don't live in CA, so I never saw it. The top fives states for gun violence are all red states but no one talks about that either, Illinois was 36th, yet everyone blames Chicago.

I don't live in Cali either, so not sure what your point is... I imagine it will get buried pretty quickly since it doesn't fit the narratives of this year. I'm not blaming Chicago, it just gets left out because it skews the numbers that people like to use to argue their agendas and what is happening there is far worse than most of what we've been talking about in the threads.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't live in Cali either, so not sure what your point is... I imagine it will get buried pretty quickly since it doesn't fit the narratives of this year.

So to be clear you think the news media reported something and then collectively decided not to pursue it further because they are trying to push a gun violence narrative? Might want to adjust that tinfoil hat.

Might want to adjust that tinfoil hat. First, if you simply google ‘California machete attack’ you’ll see huge numbers of news stories about it so right away your theory is easily proven wrong. Second, the idea of a media conspiracy to bury non-gun violence is some Chemtrail level conspiracy theorizing.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't smoke and rarely drink, but somehow my risk isn't zero....but these guys don't care about that. Again, yes, all this is horrific, but the facts are they aren't killing as many people as many other things. The difference is those aren't in the news. Neither are things such as Chicago that isn't white on anything else crime. In Cali today there was Mexican who killed 2 people and injured 4 others (all Hispanic) with a machete. No ones talking about that either, and it made front page news.

I suppose the real narrative here is 'here' if it doesn't revolve around one political side blaming the others for the horrific acts of others, it isn't that important.

It is baffling that ‘guns don’t kill as many people as other things’ is considered a good argument. Of course someone dying of heart disease isn’t as newsworthy as someone being shot to death because it’s not as interesting.

Why does the news cover a nine car pileup and not ten people who died in individual wrecks? Because duh.

 

[Wuzup101]

My reason for wanting a ban on semi-autos and speed loaders is for lessening mass killings, not for suicide. Police & military would be the exceptions.

I understand that. My point is that banning semi-autos impacts millions of legal gun owners so you can feel good / safe about something that is incredibly unlikely (but possible) in the first place. I'm not trying to belittle the recent tragedies, but I don't support an outright ban. Make them harder to readily access, evaluate people better, etc... sure.

 

[ImpulsE69]

So to be clear you think the news media reported something and then collectively decided not to pursue it further because they are trying to push a gun violence narrative? Might want to adjust that tinfoil hat.

Might want to adjust that tinfoil hat. First, if you simply google ‘California machete attack’ you’ll see huge numbers of news stories about it so right away your theory is easily proven wrong. Second, the idea of a media conspiracy to bury non-gun violence is some Chemtrail level conspiracy theorizing.

I should have been more specific. I was referring to Yahoo, which is where I saw it. That still may be tinfoil hattish, I won't deny.

 

[purbeast0]

Imagine how many more people he would have killed if he had a semi automatic rifle.

And it was a robbery string too, it wasn't just some dude with some political agenda.

It's also being talked about as I have seen it in multiple outlets.

https://www.wkyt.com/content/news/4-dead-2-wounded-in-Southern-California-stabbings-526879281.html

 

[ImpulsE69]

It is baffling that ‘guns don’t kill as many people as other things’ is considered a good argument. Of course someone dying of heart disease isn’t as newsworthy as someone being shot to death because it’s not as interesting.

Why does the news cover a nine car pileup and not ten people who died in individual wrecks? Because duh.

It is all important. When you start throwing out numbers and facts and ignore other facts to say 'it's the guns', you are setting a narrative. Do you not understand that? The NDT incident is very much an example of today's freak mob non-objective mentality.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Imagine how many more people he would have killed if he had a semi automatic rifle.

And it was a robbery string too, it wasn't just some dude with some political agenda.

It's also being talked about as I have seen it in multiple outlets.

https://www.wkyt.com/content/news/4-dead-2-wounded-in-Southern-California-stabbings-526879281.html

He took a gun from one of the security guards at the end there, but it doesn't sound like he had a chance to use it.

 

[Veliko]

I understand that. My point is that banning semi-autos impacts millions of legal gun owners so you can feel good / safe about something that is incredibly unlikely (but possible) in the first place. I'm not trying to belittle the recent tragedies, but I don't support an outright ban. Make them harder to readily access, evaluate people better, etc... sure.

You quite literally are belittling the tragedies.

The utter desperation to be able to own a gun is sheer lunacy.

"Yeah, but it was only a few deaths and only some of them were children, and if some of the survivors can't afford proper treatment it's sort of their fault... I need my guns because, erm, I do, because of the gunny things that need to be done."

 

[fskimospy]

It is all important. When you start throwing out numbers and facts and ignore other facts to say 'it's the guns', you are setting a narrative. Do you not understand that? The NDT incident is very much an example of today's freak mob non-objective mentality.

But the evidence most strongly points to ‘it’s the guns’? Shouldn’t the news report that?

 

[Veliko]

It is all important. When you start throwing out numbers and facts and ignore other facts to say 'it's the guns', you are setting a narrative. Do you not understand that? The NDT incident is very much an example of today's freak mob non-objective mentality.

So what is the purely objective take on these mass shootings?

 

[fskimospy]

So what is the purely objective take on these mass shootings?

‘It’s the guns’ is the objective take on it because if you have to pick a factor to discuss it appears to be the single largest contributor.

This reminds me of discussions about the cause of the civil war. Sure, lots of factors contributed to it, but if someone asked you what caused the civil war the answer is obvious - slavery.

 

[ImpulsE69]

But the evidence most strongly points to ‘it’s the guns’? Shouldn’t the news report that?

It was posted that wasn't the case (basically) and that person was lambasted. 'Feelings' or not, no one actually wants to hear the facts. There is no evidence that you keep talking about because it's never been done here to that degree.

 

[fskimospy]

It was posted that wasn't the case (basically) and that person was lambasted. 'Feelings' or not, no one actually wants to hear the facts. There is no evidence that you keep talking about because it's never been done here to that degree.

There is in fact a great deal of evidence that it’s the guns and I’ve linked it before. If a person said that wasn’t the case then they are not familiar with the empirical research on the issue.

While I can link you to a lot of statistical research into this (or you can search my prior posts for reams of it). If you’re looking for a simple encapsulation of it though here you go.

It’s the guns.

 

[soundforbjt]

I understand that. My point is that banning semi-autos impacts millions of legal gun owners so you can feel good / safe about something that is incredibly unlikely (but possible) in the first place. I'm not trying to belittle the recent tragedies, but I don't support an outright ban. Make them harder to readily access, evaluate people better, etc... sure.

How does it "impact them " other than they won't be able to have them? They can still hunt, target shoot, defend their homes, conceal carry or open carry. What's the impact? One of the survivors at the Garlic Festival shooting was also a survivor of the Vegas shooting. To be at two separate events where there was a mass shooting is unbelievable. There's been more multiple shootings than days so far this year, so it's becoming a norm not a rarity.

 

[Jhhnn]

I understand that. My point is that banning semi-autos impacts millions of legal gun owners so you can feel good / safe about something that is incredibly unlikely (but possible) in the first place. I'm not trying to belittle the recent tragedies, but I don't support an outright ban. Make them harder to readily access, evaluate people better, etc... sure.

What if we just made retailers quit selling them, their magazines & the parts to repair them? What if we offered reasonable cash buyback programs?

 

[Wuzup101]

What if we just made retailers quit selling them, their magazines & the parts to repair them? What if we offered reasonable cash buyback programs?

What if you put them into the NFA program instead of outright banning them? The weapons that are currently regulated by the NFA (machine guns, suppressors, SBR, SBS, AOW, etc.) are barely ever used in the commission of crimes in this country. Speed up the NFA process so the government can't drag it's feet (I'm talking about like a 45 day wait instead of a year+). Require a non-trivial, but non-prohibitive tax stamp (to fund the people processing the applications). Automate the process as much as possible and make the laws clear.

I'm not saying that we should be handing them out like candy, without a background check. I'm just saying that there are other ways to make both sides (somewhat) happy and actually prevent gun deaths without outright stripping individual liberties.

 

[soundforbjt]

What if you put them into the NFA program instead of outright banning them? The weapons that are currently regulated by the NFA (machine guns, suppressors, SBR, SBS, AOW, etc.) are barely ever used in the commission of crimes in this country. Speed up the NFA process so the government can't drag it's feet (I'm talking about like a 45 day wait instead of a year+). Require a non-trivial, but non-prohibitive tax stamp (to fund the people processing the applications). Automate the process as much as possible and make the laws clear.

I'm not saying that we should be handing them out like candy, without a background check. I'm just saying that there are other ways to make both sides (somewhat) happy and actually prevent gun deaths without outright stripping individual liberties.

What liberty is being stripped by banning semi-autos? The liberty to have one because reasons?

 

[SMOGZINN]

What if you put them into the NFA program instead of outright banning them?

I think that most people on both sides of this arugment would consider putting them in the NFA program a ban.

 

[ImpulsE69]

There is in fact a great deal of evidence that it’s the guns and I’ve linked it before. If a person said that wasn’t the case then they are not familiar with the empirical research on the issue.

While I can link you to a lot of statistical research into this (or you can search my prior posts for reams of it). If you’re looking for a simple encapsulation of it though here you go.

It’s the guns.

Yea, and here's the rest of that statistic that actually shows what the above means, and makes it much less sensational.



1/3 of violent death involving guns is homicide. Oddly, I cannot find any studies about non gun related violent deaths around the world (which are known to have increased) in the same manner, but I'll keep looking.

 

[purbeast0]

So suicide deaths by guns don't count as deaths by guns?