Gun Control Measures

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Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
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91
Ban all semi-auto handguns and rifles, there's no real need for them in hunting or self defense/home protection.

You can't really say that there is no real need for semi-autos for self defense / home protection if the reason you are banning them is that they are too good at shooting things.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Tighter background checks won't put a dent in the sales of pew-pew rifles & high capacity hand guns. Ammosexual lust for massive firepower must be satisfied at all costs.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
You can't really say that there is no real need for semi-autos the in self defense / home protection if the reason you are banning them is that they are too good at shooting things.

The issue is how many things, like people. If you haven't defended whatever you're defending with the first few rounds then you already lost. A revolver will do that as well as anything else. There's no advantage to a 17 round magazine.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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How can you believe anything from Trump's mouth, considering this:

Trump quietly used regulations to expand gun access







https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/07/trump-gun-access-restrictions-1449663

Federal agencies have implemented more than half a dozen policy changes — primarily through little-noticed regulatory moves — that expand access to guns by lifting firearms bans in certain locations and limiting the names in the national database designed to keep firearms away from dangerous people. The administration asked the Supreme Court to overturn New York City restrictions on transporting handguns outside homes. And it pushed to allow U.S. gunmakers to more easily sell firearms overseas, including the types used in mass shootings.

Other than the questionable move with the federal database (and I bet there is more to the story), I applaud every one of those moves, at least how it appears on the surface there. it makes me like him even more, finally someone is getting rid of some of the unjust regulations that do next to nothing. I mean, what was the limitation on transporting handguns outside of homes? What does that even mean. And WHY wouldn't one be able to transport their gun? Expanding gun access in some areas? That's probably a GOOD thing. Made it easier to get 3D printer plans for a firearm? Its on the internet, that's like trying to stop porn. (Also, no one uses 3D printed guns for anything other than an academic exercise) This whole article reads like someone ignorant about guns whining, and ignorant anti-2A'ers froth at the mouth right on queue.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Each of these shooters was a legal gun owner up until the moment they were shooting people in public. In general the transition from legal gun owner to illegal gun owner is instantaneous occurring at the time the crime is being committed. You're a legal gun owner until the second you are not.

Any attempt to try and curb illegal gun activities will have to affect legal gun owners in the forms of behavioral change or access to weaponry or something alongst those lines because we don't have "minority report*" type technology to identify "pre-thoughts" and pick up and convict people before they start shooting their loved ones in their private homes or strangers in random public catastrophies.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)


Then they weren't legal gun owners, they stopped being that, and guess what... the law that says don't murder, they didn't give a fuck. Just like they don't care about a gun free zone, or sawed off barrel ban, etc. etc.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
136
Other than the questionable move with the federal database (and I bet there is more to the story), I applaud every one of those moves, at least how it appears on the surface there. it makes me like him even more, finally someone is getting rid of some of the unjust regulations that do next to nothing. I mean, what was the limitation on transporting handguns outside of homes? What does that even mean. And WHY wouldn't one be able to transport their gun? Expanding gun access in some areas? That's probably a GOOD thing. Made it easier to get 3D printer plans for a firearm? Its on the internet, that's like trying to stop porn. (Also, no one uses 3D printed guns for anything other than an academic exercise) This whole article reads like someone ignorant about guns whining, and ignorant anti-2A'ers froth at the mouth right on queue.


Really? Expanding access to guns by mentally ill individuals? I thought you were stupid, but this is just icing on your Russian troll head. Allowing guns to be bought and shipped overseas without any sort of checks by the FTC and instead the Commerce Dept, which has very few enforcement abilities to control gun sales? Gotcha.....guess it's hard obtaining guns in Russia, but this helps solve that dilemma you've been facing. Now when are you going to go shoot up a school in Moscow?
 
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Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
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The issue is how many things, like people. If you haven't defended whatever you're defending with the first few rounds then you already lost. A revolver will do that as well as anything else. There's no advantage to a 17 round magazine.

Certainly there is, you can miss more times. Often it takes more than 1 round to stop a threat. If there was no advantage to using a semi-automatic then police departments would still be issuing revolvers. As a general rule, the vast majority of them aren't. It's also MUCH easier to keep a semi-automatic pistol/rifle completely unloaded in your home and only pop in a loaded mag/chamber a round if an event occurs. That's way faster than pulling out individual bullets and fumbling around with a revolver (since apparently half this forum is against speed loaders) or trying to load the blind magazine in your lever gun or pump shotgun. While a revolver is pretty easy to unload (I'd argue that it's similar to a semi-automatic handgun), a semi-automatic mag fed rifle is much easier to unload that something like a lever gun, pump action shotgun, bolt action rifle w/ a blind (internal) magazine, etc... Shit something like an AR-15 is much easier to put hits onto target than most of those other long guns simply because the gun itself manages the recoil.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,857
31,346
146
no more gun sales to right wingers, confiscate all that they own.

That will take care of 74% of extremist murders in this country right there.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
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Sooooo how many fucking DECADES has this been suggested for now? Suddenly it’s the best idea ever?
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,079
5,450
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Certainly there is, you can miss more times. Often it takes more than 1 round to stop a threat. If there was no advantage to using a semi-automatic then police departments would still be issuing revolvers. As a general rule, the vast majority of them aren't. It's also MUCH easier to keep a semi-automatic pistol/rifle completely unloaded in your home and only pop in a loaded mag/chamber a round if an event occurs. That's way faster than pulling out individual bullets and fumbling around with a revolver (since apparently half this forum is against speed loaders) or trying to load the blind magazine in your lever gun or pump shotgun. While a revolver is pretty easy to unload (I'd argue that it's similar to a semi-automatic handgun), a semi-automatic mag fed rifle is much easier to unload that something like a lever gun, pump action shotgun, bolt action rifle w/ a blind (internal) magazine, etc... Shit something like an AR-15 is much easier to put hits onto target than most of those other long guns simply because the gun itself manages the recoil.

You have a touch of those ammosexual urges, too, huh? I didn't say one round. I said the first few. Cops carry what they carry because they were getting out-gunned by the bad guys. That's obviously unacceptable. We can't have that.

You also have some confused thinking about guns as self defense. If that's why you have it then it best be loaded. Nothing else makes sense given all the possible yet highly unlikely in the first place scenarios.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
You have a touch of those ammosexual urges, too, huh? I didn't say one round. I said the first few. Cops carry what they carry because they were getting out-gunned by the bad guys. That's obviously unacceptable. We can't have that.

You also have some confused thinking about guns as self defense. If that's why you have it then it best be loaded. Nothing else makes sense given all the possible yet highly unlikely in the first place scenarios.
And locked in a gun safe.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
You can't really say that there is no real need for semi-autos for self defense / home protection if the reason you are banning them is that they are too good at shooting things.
Should we allow bazookas as well for home defense since they are pretty good?
And why are sawed off shotguns illegal in texas? (because they can stun and kill police officers in armor in part and can be easily hidden)

Essentially banning something because its too good at killing is probably the number one reason to ban something from general use.
Finally the constitution gives no sanction to guns for use for self-defense. That's not part of the second amendment.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
You know, there has been a lot of talk about guns and the mentally ill. Saw a post from a super liberal Facebook friend today, she was firing off some anti-2A nonsense and complaining about how we don't have free healthcare to help the mentally ill. And it got me thinking, how do we know taking guns from mentally ill people won't backfire and keep people that have guns and think they need mental, suicide prevention, anger management, etc. help from purposely not seeking that help out due to fear their expensive pieces of hardware, their hobby, maybe their family heirloom being taken from them? I think we could end up with an issue like we have with drugs, where people are afraid to get help because of the stigma, or what it could mean for their family, job, etc. As I thought on it, I'm not sold that's going to help all that much, depending on how criteria would be set for taking guns from those with mental health issues.
 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
You have a touch of those ammosexual urges, too, huh?

Stop being a patronizing and start using logic.

I didn't say one round. I said the first few. Cops carry what they carry because they were getting out-gunned by the bad guys. That's obviously unacceptable. We can't have that.

Cops carry what they carry because they are straight up more efficient, better technology. Look at all those western European countries that everyone references when talking about how well gun control works. Their population has very limited access to any type of fire arm. Do you see any of them (the police) carrying manually actuated rifles and revolvers? Of course not.

You also have some confused thinking about guns as self defense. If that's why you have it then it best be loaded.

Sure, the one that's on me is carried condition 1, because that just makes sense (I don't carry all that often though). I don't generally leave rifles/shotguns chambered in the house.

Nothing else makes sense given all the possible yet highly unlikely in the first place scenarios.

It's funny that you are super worried about these possible yet highly unlikely mass shootings with these super deadly weapons. Semi-automatic rifles, in particular, account for VERY , VERY few of the overall deaths per year in this country. I'm far and away more likely to be the victim of a violent crime as the result of someone breaking into my home than be killed in a mass shooting, and it's not even close. You're more likely to be murdered with someone's bare hands OR a blunt object (not combined), than you are a rifle of any type.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Looks like Trump is pushing forward some measures of gun control, and I'm all for this. This is intelligent, logic-based thinking. Expand background checks, great idea. No assault weapons ban as that is a do-nothing feel good bs restriction that will only affect legal gun owners. They tried such a ban not long ago and it made zero difference whatsoever, a stupid idea pushed forward by stupid, ignorant people. But, background checks over time can possibly help and do not affect the rights of legal gun owners.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...o-political-appetite-for-assault-weapons-ban/

Read on sucker --
FactCheck PostsDid the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban Work?
By Robert Farley
Posted on February 1, 2013
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Both sides in the gun debate are misusing academic reports on the impact of the 1994 assault weapons ban, cherry-picking portions out of context to suit their arguments.
  • Wayne LaPierre, chief executive officer of the National Rifle Association, told a Senate committee that the “ban had no impact on lowering crime.” But the studies cited by LaPierre concluded that effects of the ban were “still unfolding” when it expired in 2004 and that it was “premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence.”
  • Conversely, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who has introduced a bill to institute a new ban on assault weapons, claimed the 1994 ban “was effective at reducing crime.” That’s not correct either. The study concluded that “we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence.”
Both sides in the gun debate are selectively citing from a series of studies that concluded with a 2004 study led by Christopher S. Koper, “An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003.” That report was the final of three studies of the ban, which was enacted in 1994 as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.
The final report concluded the ban’s success in reducing crimes committed with banned guns was “mixed.” Gun crimes involving assault weapons declined. However, that decline was “offset throughout at least the late 1990s by steady or rising use of other guns equipped with [large-capacity magazines].”
Ultimately, the research concluded that it was “premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun crime,” largely because the law’s grandfathering of millions of pre-ban assault weapons and large-capacity magazines “ensured that the effects of the law would occur only gradually” and were “still unfolding” when the ban expired in 2004.
The Competing Claims
Now both LaPierre and Feinstein are lifting parts of the reports out of context to bolster their arguments for or against a renewed ban.
Testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Jan. 30, LaPierre said of the 1994 ban that “independent studies, including one from the Clinton Justice Department, proved that ban had no impact on lowering crime.” The testimony LaPierre submitted to the committee cited the first of the three major studies on the ban — this one by Koper and Jeffrey A. Roth in 1997 — in a footnote to support that claim.
The 1997 study said its analysis “failed to produce evidence of a post-ban reduction in the average number of gunshot wounds per case or in the proportion of cases involving multiple wounds.” But that’s not the same as saying the ban had “no impact.” The authors noted that the study was “constrained” to findings of short-term effects, “which are not necessarily a reliable guide to long-term effects.”
And most fundamentally, the authors wrote, “because the banned guns and magazines were never used in more than a fraction of all gun murders, even the maximum theoretically achievable preventive effect of the ban on gun murders is almost certainly too small to detect statistically with only one year of post-ban crime data.” The two later major studies of the ban included more years of analysis and concluded with an “updated assessment” that was published in 2004.
Feinstein, meanwhile, put out a press release touting her proposed legislation, the Assault Weapons Ban of 2013, which claims that “the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban was effective at reducing crime.”
Specifically, Feinstein’s press release cites a Justice Department study of the assault weapons ban that, it says, “found that it was responsible for a 6.7 percent decrease in total gun murders, holding all other factors equal” (citing the 1997 study) and that “the use of assault weapons in crime declined by more than two-thirds by about nine years after 1994 Assault Weapons Ban took effect” (citing the 2004 study). We briefly addressed this issue in a previous article.
Both sides are cherry-picking from the studies. Here’s a fuller context of what the third and final study actually concluded:
Koper, 2004: Although the ban has been successful in reducing crimes with AWs [Assault Weapons], any benefits from this reduction are likely to have been outweighed by steady or rising use of non-banned semiautomatics with LCMs [large-capacity magazines], which are used in crime much more frequently than AWs. Therefore, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence, based on indicators like the percentage of gun crimes resulting in death or the share of gunfire incidents resulting in injury, as we might have expected had the ban reduced crimes with both AWs and LCMs.​
However, the grandfathering provision of the AW-LCM ban guaranteed that the effects of this law would occur only gradually over time. Those effects are still unfolding and may not be fully felt for several years into the future, particularly if foreign, pre-ban LCMs continue to be imported into the U.S. in large numbers. It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence.​
In Koper’s Own Words
We were not able to reach Koper directly, but it so happens that he gave a presentation on his findings at a Summit on Reducing Gun Violence in America, held at Johns Hopkins University on Jan. 14 and 15. (His presentation begins at about the 30-minute mark.)
Koper, who is currently an associate professor in the Department of Criminology, Law and Society at George Mason University, provided this summary:
Koper, Jan. 14: What we found in these studies was that the ban had mixed effects in reducing crimes with the banned weaponry due to various exemptions that were written into the law. And as a result, the ban did not appear to effect gun violence during the time it was in effect. But there is some evidence to suggest that it may have modestly reduced shootings had it been in effect for a longer period.​
That the law did not have much of an impact on overall gun crime came as little surprise, Koper said. For one, assault weapons were used in only 2 percent of gun crimes before the ban. And second, existing weapons were grandfathered, meaning there were an estimated 1.5 million pre-ban assault weapons and 25 million to 50 million large-capacity magazines still in the U.S.
“So obviously, these grandfathering provisions had major implications for how the effects of the law would unfold over time,” Koper said.
The study found “clear indications that the use of assault weapons in crime did decline after the ban went into effect” and that assault weapons were becoming rarer as the years passed (this is the part of the study Feinstein seized on). But, he said, the reduction in the use of assault weapons was “offset through at least the late 1990s by steady or rising use of other semi-automatics equipped with large-capacity magazines.”
And here is the part that LaPierre highlights:
Koper, Jan 14: In general we found, really, very, very little evidence, almost none, that gun violence was becoming any less lethal or any less injurious during this time frame. So on balance, we concluded that the ban had not had a discernible impact on gun crime during the years it was in effect.​
But Koper went on to say that an assault weapons ban “could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings” if allowed to remain in place for a longer time frame.
Koper, Jan. 14: The grandfathering provisions in the law meant that the effects of the law would occur only very gradually over time. It seems that those effects were still unfolding when the ban was lifted, and indeed they may not have been fully realized for several more years into the future even if the ban had been extended in 2004.​
The evidence is too limited for any firm projections, but it does suggest that long term restrictions on these guns and magazines could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings.​
Other studies, he said, have suggested attacks with semiautomatic guns – particularly those having large magazines – “result in more shots fired, persons hit and wounds inflicted than do attacks with other guns and magazines.” Another study of handgun attacks in Jersey City during the 1990s, he said, “estimated that incidents involving more than 10 shots fired accounted for between 4 and 5 percent of the total gunshot victims in the sample.”
Koper, Jan. 14: So, using that as a very tentative guide, that’s high enough to suggest that eliminating or greatly reducing crimes with these magazines could produce a small reduction in shootings, likely something less than 5 percent. Now we should note that effects of this magnitude could be hard to ever measure in any very definitive way, but they nonetheless could have nontrivial, notable benefits for society. Consider, for example, at our current level of our gun violence, achieving a 1 percent reduction in fatal and non-fatal criminal shootings would prevent approximately 650 shootings annually … And, of course having these sorts of guns, and particularly magazines, less accessible to offenders could make it more difficult for them to commit the sorts of mass shootings that we’ve seen in recent years.”​
Koper concluded by saying that “a new ban on large capacity magazines and assault weapons would certainly not be a panacea for gun crime, but it may help to prevent further spread of particularly dangerous weaponry and eventually bring small reductions in some of the most serious and costly gun crimes.”
That kind of guarded language may not make for great sound bites for either side in the gun debate, but it more accurately reflects Koper’s findings and conclusion.
— Robert Farley
 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
Should we allow bazookas as well for home defense since they are pretty good?

No I was giving examples of things that were legitimately good for home defense. I hardly think anyone with a logical train of thought would consider a device meant to blow up vehicles from a distance a suitable home defense weapon (but I mean if you want to blow up your house I'm sure you can figure out how to do that on the internet). I wouldn't consider large caliber pistols / rifles good home defense weapons either. Grenades, nope... mortars, nope... rockets, nope... gun that is literally designed to quickly and accurately stop threats... yeah... that's kinda the point.

And why are sawed off shotguns illegal in texas? (because they can stun and kill police officers in armor in part and can be easily hidden)

Who the hell knows, I'm too lazy to look that up and see if it's even true (that they are illegal). If it's true, it was probably some sort of a knee jerk reaction like most of this fudd. Any idiot with a $15 hack saw can cut down the barrel of a smooth bore shotgun and make a sawed off shotgun in under an hour. Besides, look at the NFA laws closely, a shotgun has to be "stocked" to be considered a long gun. You can buy pre "sawed off" shotguns (remington tac 13 and tac 14) that have pistol grips (not stocks) and are perfectly legal title 1 guns. These were made legal in texas some time in 2017. Please provide a reference explaining why they were illegal previously if you find it. I thought Texas generally followed the NFA.

Edit: from what I'm finding, short barreled shotguns are/were legal in Texas just like in many other states if purchased or made through the standard NFA process (i.e. tax stamp).

Essentially banning something because its too good at killing is probably the number one reason to ban something from general use.
Finally the constitution gives no sanction to guns for use for self-defense. That's not part of the second amendment.

I'm all for limiting purchases / licensing, waiting periods, red flag laws, and closing all the background check loopholes if you think that'll help (along with better background checks). But I won't support an outright ban.

Also, no it just says that our right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed. Banning seems a lot like infringing.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
no more gun sales to right wingers, confiscate all that they own.

That will take care of 74% of extremist murders in this country right there.
So much for Chicago and other violent cities were mass shooting happen weekly by non right wingers.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Stop being a patronizing and start using logic.



Cops carry what they carry because they are straight up more efficient, better technology. Look at all those western European countries that everyone references when talking about how well gun control works. Their population has very limited access to any type of fire arm. Do you see any of them (the police) carrying manually actuated rifles and revolvers? Of course not.

Most UK & French police don't carry guns. When they do, they face the same issue of being out-gunned as our police.

Sure, the one that's on me is carried condition 1, because that just makes sense (I don't carry all that often though). I don't generally leave rifles/shotguns chambered in the house.

You know full well that chambered and loaded aren't the same thing.

It's funny that you are super worried about these possible yet highly unlikely mass shootings with these super deadly weapons. Semi-automatic rifles, in particular, account for VERY , VERY few of the overall deaths per year in this country. I'm far and away more likely to be the victim of a violent crime as the result of someone breaking into my home than be killed in a mass shooting, and it's not even close.

If civilians didn't have access to weapons suitable for mass murder it wouldn't be a concern at all.
 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
Most UK & French police don't carry guns. When they do, they face the same issue of being out-gunned as our police.

Yeah there are a few other countries where normal police officers don't carry them either (at least on their person). Obviously varies by country. Some have them secured in cars, some have special teams, etc... My point was that they are still are using modern technology. Manually operated long guns are, in general, vastly inferior to semi-automatics for defensive scenarios. Long guns in general (including semi automatics) are responsible for a very small amount of gun deaths in this country.

My point was that semi-automatic pistols and rifles are VERY valid choices for home defense / personal protection. By their very nature they are well suited to this task. Obviously in the hands of someone bent on killing as many people as possible, they can also be very effective.

You know full well that chambered and loaded aren't the same thing.

Chambered is loaded, loaded isn't necessarily chambered. Any legal, safety, etc.. definition of loaded includes guns in condition 3 (magazine in chamber, no round chambered). I'm not sure what the confusion here is, my point was that popping a magazine into an AR-15 and pulling the charging handle takes a very small amount of time. Plenty of people don't necessarily want to have a condition 1 AR-15 around the house, especially if you routinely have to make them safe for transport. It's not legal in my home state to transport a long gun loaded in a vehicle. Much easier and safer (via less manipulation to obtain the end result) to pop a magazine out at the press of a single button than have to eject a tube worth of rounds from a lever or pump.

If civilians didn't have access to weapons suitable for mass murder it wouldn't be a concern at all.

There are plenty of other instruments of mass murder that one can get their hands fairly easily. Eliminating semi-automatic weapons in general isn't going to have a huge impact on gun deaths overall as a huge portion of them are suicides or "non-mass shooting" homicides.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
55,346
136
Stop being a patronizing and start using logic.

Cops carry what they carry because they are straight up more efficient, better technology. Look at all those western European countries that everyone references when talking about how well gun control works. Their population has very limited access to any type of fire arm. Do you see any of them (the police) carrying manually actuated rifles and revolvers? Of course not.

Sure, the one that's on me is carried condition 1, because that just makes sense (I don't carry all that often though). I don't generally leave rifles/shotguns chambered in the house.

It's funny that you are super worried about these possible yet highly unlikely mass shootings with these super deadly weapons. Semi-automatic rifles, in particular, account for VERY , VERY few of the overall deaths per year in this country. I'm far and away more likely to be the victim of a violent crime as the result of someone breaking into my home than be killed in a mass shooting, and it's not even close. You're more likely to be murdered with someone's bare hands OR a blunt object (not combined), than you are a rifle of any type.

Speaking of logic, the evidence shows that if you have a gun in your home you’re more likely to be the victim of both homicide and suicide. So if what you’re worried about is what is most likely it sure seems silly to own a gun for protection at all, no?