Guild Wars, MMORPG or just a RPG with online abilities?

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Looney

Incorrect. Diablo and UT2k4 do not have thousands of players in the same game. As Malak has pointed out, neither does Guild Wars.

Thus, it is not an MMORPG. However, the reasons have nothing to do with persistence.

You're a moron. Why is there not thousands of people playing simultaneously? Because there is no persistent world.

True in this instance, but if a game had a mechanic where thousands could play simultaneously in a non-persistant world, it would still qualify as massively multiplayer.

No it wouldn't. So what would happen, they would kick people out of the world every couple of hours simply so they can claim they don't have a persistent world? The costs for such a game (such as a server farm powerful enough to handle thousands of players simultaneously) will still be the same.

Really, your points are weak and pathetic, give it up now.

 

[Malak]

I think the real point to a persistent world is that it grows, changes, evolves. Not all MMO's actually do this. All MMO's have downtime, what happens when they come back up? How many are the same they were since launch when they reboot?

Planetside, for instance, is exactly the same each time you play. Sure, maybe the NC own this continent today and the VS own it tomorrow, but it's just basing. I don't think a persistent world really does matter in the case of an MMO. It might be the focus of some MMO's, but it isn't really present at all in others.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: malak
I think the real point to a persistent world is that it grows, changes, evolves. Not all MMO's actually do this. All MMO's have downtime, what happens when they come back up? How many are the same they were since launch when they reboot?

Planetside, for instance, is exactly the same each time you play. Sure, maybe the NC own this continent today and the VS own it tomorrow, but it's just basing. I don't think a persistent world really does matter in the case of an MMO. It might be the focus of some MMO's, but it isn't really present at all in others.

Looks like someone else is thinking too

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Looney
No it wouldn't. So what would happen, they would kick people out of the world every couple of hours simply so they can claim they don't have a persistent world? The costs for such a game (such as a server farm powerful enough to handle thousands of players simultaneously) will still be the same.

Really, your points are weak and pathetic, give it up now.

I'm not guessing about how it would be implemented (I couldn't care less), which is where you're getting sidetracked. It's simply the meaning of the term. Massively Multiplayer Online Game means thousands of players in the same game.

Anything else is optional.

It's not that my points are weak, it's that you're arguing that nothing like what I'm describing has been done or is in the works. I don't disagree with you there, but I also don't care, because it's completely beside the point. If it was done, it would be MMO.

[whine]Give it up already![/whine]

 

[Tom]

If Guild Wars was just Diablo 2 but with the ability to stream in new quests and monsters, I would consider that worth getting.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Looney
No it wouldn't. So what would happen, they would kick people out of the world every couple of hours simply so they can claim they don't have a persistent world? The costs for such a game (such as a server farm powerful enough to handle thousands of players simultaneously) will still be the same.

Really, your points are weak and pathetic, give it up now.

I'm not guessing about how it would be implemented (I couldn't care less), which is where you're getting sidetracked. It's simply the meaning of the term. Massively Multiplayer Online Game means thousands of players in the same game.

So thousands of people are in UT2k4, does that mean it's an MMOG?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: malak
I think the real point to a persistent world is that it grows, changes, evolves. Not all MMO's actually do this. All MMO's have downtime, what happens when they come back up? How many are the same they were since launch when they reboot?

Planetside, for instance, is exactly the same each time you play. Sure, maybe the NC own this continent today and the VS own it tomorrow, but it's just basing. I don't think a persistent world really does matter in the case of an MMO. It might be the focus of some MMO's, but it isn't really present at all in others.

That would be the next step in MMOG... but just because a world doesn't grow or 'evolve', doesn't mean it's not a persistent world. Persistent world just means when you quit the game, the game world is still alive and running, and doesn't pause for you.

And i have no idea why you brought up reboots... just because a game reboots, it's not persistent? There will always be downtime, and if you think a game world can ever be made without ever having any, i think you've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

Seems like some of you guys just don't understand these basic definitions.
MMOG = thousands of people playing in a persistent world together
Persistent = a world that continues to exist even when you quit a game.

Thousands of people play Unreal together, does that mean it's an MMOG? Of course not, because it doesn't have a persistent world. There are Neverwinter Nights servers that have more uptime than the best MMOGS, but are they MMOGs? No, because they only have 40 people max in the world at any one time.

 

[Malak]

Looney, that was my point. If reboots don't count, then even a counterstrike server is persistent We aren't going to say NWN is an MMOG despite it's persistent world. It simply comes down to the massively multiplayer gameplay. Unreal doesn't have that, which seperates it from Planetside. Guildwars doesn't have it either.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: malak
Looney, that was my point. If reboots don't count, then even a counterstrike server is persistent We aren't going to say NWN is an MMOG despite it's persistent world. It simply comes down to the massively multiplayer gameplay. Unreal doesn't have that, which seperates it from Planetside. Guildwars doesn't have it either.

Why doesn't Unreal, Counterstrike, Guildwars count then? They DO have thousands of people playing at any one time. It's because they're not playing TOGETHER at the same time.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Looney
So thousands of people are in UT2k4, does that mean it's an MMOG?

Are you having trouble reading?

Originally posted by: Insomniak
Massively Multiplayer Online Game means thousands of players in the same game.

Originally posted by: Looney
Why doesn't Unreal, Counterstrike, Guildwars count then? They DO have thousands of people playing at any one time. It's because they're not playing TOGETHER at the same time.

I'll be damned...looks like you finally got it. *pats on back*

 

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: randumb
not an mmo...it's like Diablo

exactly it is bascially diablo3 with an enhanced Battlenet

 

[Griffinhart]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Looney

Originally posted by: Insomniak
I really don't see how it is not an MMORPG.

Thousands of players per server? Yes. MM.
Online? Yes. O.
Character creation and growth? Yes. RPG.

MMORPG?

The world isn't persistent. EVERYTHING is instanced... as soon as you leave the zone, it's gone. If you re-enter it, it's a completely reset zone.

So it's not persistent. I don't see what persistence has to do with MMORPGs.

I understand most of them are, but it's not a requirement. Let's look at the name one more time:

Massively Multiplayer: Massive amounts of players (thousands) in the same server.
Online: On the intertron.
Role Playing Game: Players create characters and play vicariously through them.


As far as I'm concerned, those are the only three elements you need to be an MMORPG, because those are precisely the three things described in the phrase Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Is Guild Wars missing any of them?

Other factors are immaterial.

What makes it not a MMORPG is the way instancing is used. sure, There are thousands of players you can interact with in the cities, but, once you leave the cities you are isolated since every other zone(not just dungeons) is instanced.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Griffinhart
What makes it not a MMORPG is the way instancing is used. sure, There are thousands of players you can interact with in the cities, but, once you leave the cities you are isolated since every other zone(not just dungeons) is instanced.

Yeah we already went over that and I stand corrected. It's all posted in here somewhere.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Looney
So thousands of people are in UT2k4, does that mean it's an MMOG?

Are you having trouble reading?

Originally posted by: Insomniak
Massively Multiplayer Online Game means thousands of players in the same game.

Originally posted by: Looney
Why doesn't Unreal, Counterstrike, Guildwars count then? They DO have thousands of people playing at any one time. It's because they're not playing TOGETHER at the same time.

I'll be damned...looks like you finally got it. *pats on back*

You're just ignorant... or just stupid. Probably both. When you play Counterstrike, you're playing the SAME GAME with thousands of other people, but you're just in your own little world in each one, limited to a couple dozen people. You NEED a PERSISTENT world where you can play TOGETHER that makes it an MMOG.

If you've ever played an MMOG before, and played Diablo or GW, you'll see the difference. You obviously haven't.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Looney
You're just ignorant... or just stupid. Probably both. When you play Counterstrike, you're playing the SAME GAME with thousands of other people, but you're just in your own little world in each one, limited to a couple dozen people. You NEED a PERSISTENT world where you can play TOGETHER that makes it an MMOG.

I think there's confusion over the term "game" here. You, because you are not me, mistakenly believe "game" to mean the software app in question. That is not the case. "Game" refer to the actual action of playing, or the "match" in Counter-Strike, or UT2k4, or what have you.

Please try to be more clear with your terminology in the future. It will save me the trouble of having to take responsbility for being partially at fault.

 

[jaedaliu]

Originally posted by: malak
I think the real point to a persistent world is that it grows, changes, evolves. Not all MMO's actually do this. All MMO's have downtime, what happens when they come back up? How many are the same they were since launch when they reboot?

Everquest had a persistent world event in Velious when a guild killed 4 dragon warders and awoke the sleeper. Sony then stated something to the effect that while it was a totally awesome event, they would never put it into a game again. It caused too much headache, and um, i forget, but it was basically unfair to the people that weren't at the top of the list. Something like 3 years later they re-populated the zone(dungeon) with new and different enemies just to make it more interesting.

aside from my one EQ point, the only other online games with persistence that I can think of would be UO with their houses.

oh, and it's nice to see people finally comparing it to dungeon siege. I've started playing it again so that I could save money and not buy guildwars.

 

[Reckoner]

The game has been great so far, but one of the major pet peeves I have right now is buying skills. It can be incredibly difficult for new players, like myself, to figure out how to find, say, Water spells for my Elementalist, since the trainers all have a different set of skills they can give you. In a game such as WoW, they had the perfect system I thought, where you can purchase ANY skill from ANY trainer.

I still haven't spent any of my 10 skill points because I can't find a damn trainer. I'm at the Academy mission right now.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Looney
You're just ignorant... or just stupid. Probably both. When you play Counterstrike, you're playing the SAME GAME with thousands of other people, but you're just in your own little world in each one, limited to a couple dozen people. You NEED a PERSISTENT world where you can play TOGETHER that makes it an MMOG.

If you've ever played an MMOG before, and played Diablo or GW, you'll see the difference. You obviously haven't.

Honestly, can you read? Is your comprehension level grade 2? He already admitted it wasn't an MMO, we've already said a thousand times it isn't, yet you continue to not only insult him but keep saying the same arguement we are saying! We all already know it's not an MMO! Of course you'll probably disregard this post too and tell me I'm an idiot as well.

 

[Icopoli]

If you're at Nolanai Academy, you're not going to find a trainer for awhile.

 

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: jaedaliu

Originally posted by: malak
I think the real point to a persistent world is that it grows, changes, evolves. Not all MMO's actually do this. All MMO's have downtime, what happens when they come back up? How many are the same they were since launch when they reboot?

Everquest had a persistent world event in Velious when a guild killed 4 dragon warders and awoke the sleeper. Sony then stated something to the effect that while it was a totally awesome event, they would never put it into a game again. It caused too much headache, and um, i forget, but it was basically unfair to the people that weren't at the top of the list. Something like 3 years later they re-populated the zone(dungeon) with new and different enemies just to make it more interesting.

aside from my one EQ point, the only other online games with persistence that I can think of would be UO with their houses.

oh, and it's nice to see people finally comparing it to dungeon siege. I've started playing it again so that I could save money and not buy guildwars.

Dungeon Siege was fun but I play GW for the guild combat system. GW's combat system in general is a lot more intricate anyway. DS is fine for mindless hack'n'slash but imho GW is a superior multiplayer experience.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: malak

Originally posted by: Looney
You're just ignorant... or just stupid. Probably both. When you play Counterstrike, you're playing the SAME GAME with thousands of other people, but you're just in your own little world in each one, limited to a couple dozen people. You NEED a PERSISTENT world where you can play TOGETHER that makes it an MMOG.

If you've ever played an MMOG before, and played Diablo or GW, you'll see the difference. You obviously haven't.

Honestly, can you read? Is your comprehension level grade 2? He already admitted it wasn't an MMO, we've already said a thousand times it isn't, yet you continue to not only insult him but keep saying the same arguement we are saying! We all already know it's not an MMO! Of course you'll probably disregard this post too and tell me I'm an idiot as well.

The point i was making is that GW is NOT a MMOG because it has no persistent world. If you've played GW, you would see there are thousands of people playing the same game as you. Log into the game, and you're thrown into a city with hundreds of others. You can group with them, you can chat with them, you can trade, but it's all a graphical interface for what use to be text. Neat idea, and gives the feeling of an MMOG when you first log into the game, but then when you actually start to play it, you realize it's not, because you're doing everything alone or with small groups.

 

[torpid]

Yes, GW is diablo 3 with an enhanced battle.net in the same way that WoW is a mud with graphics. GW gameplay reminds me a lot of end game MMORPGs. Everyone gathers in a central town waiting for a pvp battle or another instance run, basically. While chatting and answering stupid questions from newbies like me. There still is a sense of co-existing with others. I can ask for help and somene can show me or trade with me. People still recruit you into guilds that do activities together. People still sell items and the like.

I'm not saying it's an MMORPG, but I don't want people who don't know much about the game to think it's just D3 and battle.net. It's a bit more MMORPGish than that, and does have some strong social elements.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Looney
The point i was making is that GW is NOT a MMOG because it has no persistent world. If you've played GW, you would see there are thousands of people playing the same game as you. Log into the game, and you're thrown into a city with hundreds of others. You can group with them, you can chat with them, you can trade, but it's all a graphical interface for what use to be text. Neat idea, and gives the feeling of an MMOG when you first log into the game, but then when you actually start to play it, you realize it's not, because you're doing everything alone or with small groups.

It has nothing to do with being a persistent world, we've already discussed that. There are plenty of games classified as MMO's that are not persistent, and plenty of non-MMO RPG's that are persistent. The single factor that makes a game an MMO is that it is massively multiplayer. NOTHING ELSE. Guildwars is not massively multiplayer, therefore is not an MMO. /thread

 

[zerodeefex]

I feel like I've wandered into the middle of a nerd circle jerk.

 

[shurato]

Then I suppose you have difficulty with comprehension of the English language as the title clearly translates, "Nerd Circle Jerk In Here".
Well... I have to say that this thread has peaked my interest and I will be going to pick up this game after work =)