GTS250 Review @ Tech Report

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: chizow
I just don't see a spot in the market for the 4850 anymore given its price and performance, especially given that $20 difference to the 4870 nets you a much faster card and an invariably better dual-slot cooler as well.

This is one of the things I took into consideration earlier last week. The 4850 does perform similarly to the 9800 GTX+, but often times the coolers - while they're no longer reference ones - aren't quite as nice as the 9800s for the same price. If you did find one that was, it wouldn't be much more money to get a 4870.

But, Anandtech still recommends the 4850. Thing is, some of the cheapest 4850s I saw on the egg sported decent heatsinks but had fans that couldn't be controlled through software.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: chizow
Looks like 4870 512MB at 150, GTS 250 at $130 and 4830/4750 or GTS 240 (9800GT) in the sub-$100 market. I'd assume any downward spreads would be covered in price differences and MIRs. I just don't see a spot in the market for the 4850 anymore given its price and performance, especially given that $20 difference to the 4870 nets you a much faster card and an invariably better dual-slot cooler as well.

I hardly see the GTS250/9800GTX+ being viable in the $150-$170 range when the GTX260 can be had for as little as $179 on a given day and is superior in most respects, and SHOULD fall even further to combat the 4870 on an even keel. Of course nvidia is banking on market confusion to make people thing the GTS250 is part of the GT200 line, and hence superior somehow to the 9800's thus masking the need for any price cuts on the GTX260 which nvidia honestly can't AFFORD.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: chizow
Looks like 4870 512MB at 150, GTS 250 at $130 and 4830/4750 or GTS 240 (9800GT) in the sub-$100 market. I'd assume any downward spreads would be covered in price differences and MIRs. I just don't see a spot in the market for the 4850 anymore given its price and performance, especially given that $20 difference to the 4870 nets you a much faster card and an invariably better dual-slot cooler as well.

I hardly see the GTS250/9800GTX+ being viable in the $150-$170 range when the GTX260 can be had for as little as $179 on a given day and is superior in most respects, and SHOULD fall even further to combat the 4870 on an even keel. Of course nvidia is banking on market confusion to make people thing the GTS250 is part of the GT200 line, and hence superior somehow to the 9800's thus masking the need for any price cuts on the GTX260 which nvidia honestly can't AFFORD.

I think we're brothers SunnyD, that's the same observation I had about this whole thing.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
I hardly see the GTS250/9800GTX+ being viable in the $150-$170 range when the GTX260 can be had for as little as $179 on a given day and is superior in most respects, and SHOULD fall even further to combat the 4870 on an even keel. Of course nvidia is banking on market confusion to make people thing the GTS250 is part of the GT200 line, and hence superior somehow to the 9800's thus masking the need for any price cuts on the GTX260 which nvidia honestly can't AFFORD.

Who said anything about the $150-$170 range?

From AT: The 512MB cards will sell for $129 while the 1GB cards will sell for $149.[/quote]

Like I said earlier, I'm sure there will be downward movement in pricing to fill in all those gaps, but that doesn't leave any room for the 4850 really, as it'll just bump into the 4830 on the low-end and its clearly too close to the 4870 at the top of this low-end spectrum.

 

[nosfe]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Its funny how they do all sorts of PCB improvements to the 1GB model, but the 512MB is left untouched..

from what i've read across the net the reason for the 512mb version staying the same is that they have a ton in stock so they won't use the new PCB design on the 512mb cards until they clear the old stock

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SunnyD
I hardly see the GTS250/9800GTX+ being viable in the $150-$170 range when the GTX260 can be had for as little as $179 on a given day and is superior in most respects, and SHOULD fall even further to combat the 4870 on an even keel. Of course nvidia is banking on market confusion to make people thing the GTS250 is part of the GT200 line, and hence superior somehow to the 9800's thus masking the need for any price cuts on the GTX260 which nvidia honestly can't AFFORD.

Who said anything about the $150-$170 range?

From AT: The 512MB cards will sell for $129 while the 1GB cards will sell for $149.

Like I said earlier, I'm sure there will be downward movement in pricing to fill in all those gaps, but that doesn't leave any room for the 4850 really, as it'll just bump into the 4830 on the low-end and its clearly too close to the 4870 at the top of this low-end spectrum.[/quote]

Last time I checked, >= 5 gets rounded up. $149 sounds to me like the lower end of the $150-$170 range, doesn't it?

I agree with you that the lower end market is going to get squeezed severely. Given the 4830 already competes directly with the 4670 in terms of price (though not performance) at around the $70 mark, I still think there's plenty of headroom for the 4850 at the $85-$100 range. Given the fluctuating price points of the 4870 (again, as low as $105 this morning for the 512), seeing $110-$130 for the 512 and $140-180 for the 1GB versions, it makes a hell of a lot more sense on ATI's side than nvidia's.

We do have to see what the GTS250 pricing will actually bring to retail, but it sure looks to me like a stopgap measure to bolster the price point of the GTX260's, especially the the GTS250 really should be competing against the 4850 to be measured "even keel".

What I really want to see though is the high end market come down. The disparity for price/performance at the GTX285 level is ridiculous with most manufacturers hovering in the mid-$300's. Hopefully we'll see the high end margin be relegated to the GTX295. I'm babbling now... wishing for pipe-dreams. At least AMD's price strategy works, and does so for the benefit of the consumer.

 

[chizow]

Rofl, I guess if you really wanted to, you can round up the MSRP $1-21 to make your assessment accurate. I really don't care enough about these parts to continue on though, but I'd say the end result is great for anyone looking for cheap performance. Nvidia cut the price on their mid-range parts and which forced AMD to do the same. Incredible value at $150 or less now.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: chizow
Rofl, I guess if you really wanted to, you can round up the MSRP $1-21 to make your assessment accurate. I really don't care enough about these parts to continue on though, but I'd say the end result is great for anyone looking for cheap performance. Nvidia cut the price on their mid-range parts and which forced AMD to do the same. Incredible value at $150 or less now.

For once... I agree with you. :thumbsup:

I wish I saw the 4870 deal before it went out of stock. I could have gotten 2x 4870's for the same price as 1x 4870 1GB or a GTX260... can't touch that kind of deal with a stick!

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: josh6079
Why are the tech report and Anandtech benches still using the 8.12 drivers?

You know I didn't pay attention to that, probably instructed by nVidia.

Derek doesn't rerun benchmarks unless there's a good reason to. The 8.12 hotfix drivers are the same as the 9.2 Catalysts, which is presumably why he didn't rerun any ATI tests.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
I really like what bit-tech wrote here. :laugh:

That's pretty bad. Bit-tech is a great site and they're getting the run-around??!!! :disgust:

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
I really like what bit-tech wrote here. :laugh:

That's pretty bad. Bit-tech is a great site and they're getting the run-around??!!! :disgust:

AT nearly did too. NV had a card sent at the last moment. And this is the #1/#2 (depending on the metric used) hardware review site out there.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: Wreckage

I guess it was more than just a rebadge.

Yet the very name of the AT review is: NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250: A Rebadged 9800 GTX+

It's smaller, faster, uses less power and has 1GB of ram.

I agree, from a whole card perspective it isn't just a rebadge. They redesigned the PCB as well as, according to AT, due to the process being more mature with the new PCB make the new card use a bit less power. But from a performance stand point it looks to be pretty much a rebadge from what I saw.

 

[superunknown98]

While it is a decent card and it compares well to it's rival the 4850 1GB, I can't help but agree with Derek's review:

"Maybe this name change is for people who don't know anything about graphics hardware then. In that case the thing that "sells" the card is the simple fact that NVIDIA has convinced someone that this part is an affordable version of a card from their latest line of products. Saying they need a name change to maintain current naming is essentially admitting that the only reason the name needs to be changed is to mislead uninformed people".

Changing the name to match that of new hardware is only there to fool uninformed consumers. The name will give a better impression than if they knew the hardware was actually an older architecture. It's a despicable practice now and when ATI did it with the 8500/9000/9100/9200.

 

[Wreckage]

Changing the name to match that of new hardware is only there to fool uninformed consumers. .

Would these "uniformed consumers" know the difference between a GTS250 and a HD4870?

Are they tricking these poor lost souls into paying more money?

 

[zerocool84]

The 4870 is the new bang for the buck after the price drop. The 9800GTX+/GTS250 would not even be able to use that 1GB effectively cus it's too slow for when the 1GB would even make a difference.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Would these "uniformed consumers" know the difference between a GTS250 and a HD4870?

Sure they would, one's got a frog on the box and the other boasts of sexy girls double-wielding swords :laugh: I know which one I would buy if I was 15 yrs old :laugh:

 

[nitromullet]

Those you talking about the new PCB do realize that the 9800 GTX+ has been available with a new, smaller PCB with only one PCIe 6-pin connector already...?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814143162
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814130416
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814125245 (1GB RAM on this one too, although it appears to be a slightly different PCB than the others)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814130420

I'm not sure why none of the review sites compared the GTS 250 to these cards.

 

[nosfe]

i think we're starting to see the effects lower priced gddr5 memory with the 4870 getting better and better while the 4850 becoming a worse buy from a purely price/performance point of view

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: nosfe
anyway, this whole 4850 vs 9800gtx+ should stop, it's been done to death, how about we find something fresh to argue about?

How about we argue about ATI ripping off consumers with high 4850/4870 price gouging, and how NVIDIA saved the day by releasing a competitive card, thus "forcing" ATI to stop being greedy and lower prices?

Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Originally posted by: ViRGE
AT nearly did too. NV had a card sent at the last moment. And this is the #1/#2 (depending on the metric used) hardware review site out there.

You can thank BFG's director of marketing for AT having a card to review.

So, will web sites now be clamoring for the new "rebranded" G94 9600 GSO card to review?

Are people still confused and/or upset over the GTS 250? Seriously though:

240SP = 285 = $340
192-216SP = 260 = $230
128SP = 250 = $150

Isn't that reasonable enough? This "rebadge" promises lower prices with slightly higher performance (1GB 9800 GTX+ were pretty much always 2000MHz memory) and a unified naming scheme. What's to hate? Was it really necessary for NVIDIA to create all new GPUs from ground-up to fill the gap underneath 192SP? I guess they could try to hit exactly 144SP to make it more of an even gap. :roll:

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Zap

How about we argue about ATI ripping off consumers with high 4850/4870 price gouging, and how NVIDIA saved the day by releasing a competitive card, thus "forcing" ATI to stop being greedy and lower prices?

Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Well said.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Zap
Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Reminds me of how quickly folks forget how expensive AMD's X2 cpu's were until Intel rolled C2D in summer 2006. An equally taboo subject.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
Those you talking about the new PCB do realize that the 9800 GTX+ has been available with a new, smaller PCB with only one PCIe 6-pin connector already...?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814143162
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814130416
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814125245 (1GB RAM on this one too, although it appears to be a slightly different PCB than the others)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814130420

I'm not sure why none of the review sites compared the GTS 250 to these cards.

So really it is just a rebrand and nothing at all more than?

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Zap

How about we argue about ATI ripping off consumers with high 4850/4870 price gouging, and how NVIDIA saved the day by releasing a competitive card, thus "forcing" ATI to stop being greedy and lower prices?

Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Well said.

I guess I don't get that whole line of thinking. How did AMD price gouge on the 4850/4870? From what I see, now matter what you call a 9800GTX+ it's really not a competior to the 4870.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Zap

How about we argue about ATI ripping off consumers with high 4850/4870 price gouging, and how NVIDIA saved the day by releasing a competitive card, thus "forcing" ATI to stop being greedy and lower prices?

Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Don't forget to add that this will force ATI to sell their cards at a loss and they will be doooooomed.

That seemed a popular line as well.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Zap
Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

You're comparing the price drop on 280s and 260s when the 4800s came out to the price drop on a 4870/4850 when these 250s came out? Not even close.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Zap

How about we argue about ATI ripping off consumers with high 4850/4870 price gouging, and how NVIDIA saved the day by releasing a competitive card, thus "forcing" ATI to stop being greedy and lower prices?

Oh wait, nevermind. That was when ATI released the 4870, causing NVIDIA to drop GTX 280 prices. When it goes the other way 'round, we're not supposed to notice. :roll:

Don't forget to add that this will force ATI to sell their cards at a loss and they will be doooooomed.

That seemed a popular line as well.

:laugh: