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Gruber gets grilled tomorrow

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I think that it's important to remember that for the true believers Obamacare is already a huge success regardless of how it is being implemented and regardless for how it shakes out in the future. They deem it a success because they judge it based on the intentions of the legislation. Zorkorist made some excellent points in reference to zinfamous' post. Whether that single mother of four living in the inner city is actually taking her children and herself in for regular exams doesn't really matter in the world of the believers. What is important is that they feel she is now able to do so. The problem, it's fixed! Check off the box and move onto the next item on the list.

The people pointing out the shortcomings, the flaws in the legislation, the inconsistencies are deemed to be evil haters. Why? Because they are interfering with the feelings of accomplishment that the supporters of the legislation are reveling in. We're raining on their parade. The perceived problem has been fixed by a perceived solution and you guys are just, just making us have to think! Stop!

What's really mind boggling is the stubborn refusal to admit the flaws coupled with the outright refusal at any attempts to fix it. Which is why it may just be better to try and scuttle it altogether. Pull the band-off quickly versus listening to the whining and wailing as it's peeled back to apply some additional healing ointment. Perfect legislation crafted by perfect people is perfectly good and does not and will not be altered by imperfect people. Don't think at its base that those aren't the thought processes in play.

What's important is to remember that the legislation was based in lies, passed by telling lies and is being defended by lies. Lies are a cornerstone of the ideology of the progressive left. The end justifies the means and there are no lies too great to tell. Which takes us back to post #1 and Gruber exposing some of the lies.

Allow it to be fixed or watch it go away.
 
boomerang said:
I think that it's important to remember that for the true believers Obamacare is already a huge success regardless of how it is being implemented and regardless for how it shakes out in the future. They deem it a success because they judge it based on the intentions of the legislation. Zorkorist made some excellent points in reference to zinfamous' post. Whether that single mother of four living in the inner city is actually taking her children and herself in for regular exams doesn't really matter in the world of the believers. What is important is that they feel she is now able to do so. The problem, it's fixed! Check off the box and move onto the next item on the list.

The people pointing out the shortcomings, the flaws in the legislation, the inconsistencies are deemed to be evil haters. Why? Because they are interfering with the feelings of accomplishment that the supporters of the legislation are reveling in. We're raining on their parade. The perceived problem has been fixed by a perceived solution and you guys are just, just making us have to think! Stop!

What's really mind boggling is the stubborn refusal to admit the flaws coupled with the outright refusal at any attempts to fix it. Which is why it may just be better to try and scuttle it altogether. Pull the band-off quickly versus listening to the whining and wailing as it's peeled back to apply some additional healing ointment. Perfect legislation crafted by perfect people is perfectly good and does not and will not be altered by imperfect people. Don't think at its base that those aren't the thought processes in play.

What's important is to remember that the legislation was based in lies, passed by telling lies and is being defended by lies. Lies are a cornerstone of the ideology of the progressive left. The end justifies the means and there are no lies too great to tell. Which takes us back to post #1 and Gruber exposing some of the lies.

Allow it to be fixed or watch it go away.
Click to expand...

On one hand you have the actual numbers that show the ACA is performing quite well. On the other hand you have hand waving by people like boomerang. He can't admit that it is working well because it has become a foundational part of his ideology that it's Evil Tyranny.

What do you do about people who are so pathologically dishonest? I guess we ignore them and move on, as I can't think of any scenario where they admit to being wrong about this?
 
highland145 said:
Or let the middle class get squeezed to death. My new $10K deductible family plan...$618/mo.
Click to expand...
The middle class must be squeezed. Politicians need the big donors and even if they didn't there isn't enough money to be confiscated from them to last very long and accomplish very much. What a progressive government needs is a vast source of wealth that can be tapped for a long and seemingly sustainable period of time.

The poor? Nope, not them for obvious reasons.
The rich? Nope, not enough and pissing them off could be disastrous.
The middle class? There we go. Those chumps are willing to keep right on working and when you add up the sum total of their wealth it eclipses the assets of the rich. That's the ticket right there.

We're from the government and we're here today to tell you how we'll be investing your IRA and 401K accounts from this point forward.

"What? What's going to happen?"

"Something wonderful."
 
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Maybe once the Repubs in Congress get the idea that the ACA is here to stay they can get off the "Repeal Obama Care" wagon and actually turn their attention toward fixing what needs to be fixed and improving what needs to be improved. OR, miracles of miracles, the Repubs can actually come up with a plan of their very own that actually benefits the masses more than benefiting big pharma and the health insurance companies like how it is now and how they and a lot of Dems are trained to ensure at the moment.

With a unified Congress bent on making fixes and improvements, the ACA would surely provide what the original intent was before the Health Insurance/Health Care lobby weighed in and practically wrote large parts of the Act to insure their profit margins wouldn't be restrained in any way, shape or form.

A dream? Yeh, but at least it's something that can be done to improve the general welfare of the nation, rather than continuing to pile up wealth in the hands of the few.
 
eskimospy said:
What are you basing that on?
Click to expand...

POTENTIAL EFFECTS OF THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT ON INCOME INEQUALITY
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re...care act income inequality aaron burtless.pdf

Exploding wealth inequality in the United States
http://equitablegrowth.org/research/exploding-wealth-inequality-united-states/

102014-wealth-web-03.jpg
 
Doc Savage Fan said:
POTENTIAL EFFECTS OF THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT ON INCOME INEQUALITY
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re...care act income inequality aaron burtless.pdf

Exploding wealth inequality in the United States
http://equitablegrowth.org/research/exploding-wealth-inequality-united-states/

102014-wealth-web-03.jpg
Click to expand...

You can't really say the middle class is poorer than at any time since the 1940's by any commonly recognized measure by that data.

You're mistaking relative share of national wealth with who is rich and poor. As a way to show how ridiculous that is, if we had a nation where everyone was a billionaire and you only had $50 million, you would have a wealth that was a minuscule fraction of the national wealth, but you would by no means be poorer than someone who was much poorer in absolute terms but had a larger share of national wealth in a much poorer nation.

So what you might mean is that wealth inequality has increased, which is a very different statement. As an easy way to look if we've become poorer (or equally poor), look at the standard of living of the average American household in 1945 or whatever and ask yourself if you would trade places.

Additionally, looking at wealth without income can also be misleading. For example a high school dropout has considerably greater wealth than a new college graduate with student loans, yet I doubt anyone would want to change places with them.
 
eskimospy said:
You can't really say the middle class is poorer than at any time since the 1940's by any commonly recognized measure by that data.

You're mistaking relative share of national wealth with who is rich and poor. As a way to show how ridiculous that is, if we had a nation where everyone was a billionaire and you only had $50 million, you would have a wealth that was a minuscule fraction of the national wealth, but you would by no means be poorer than someone who was much poorer in absolute terms but had a larger share of national wealth in a much poorer nation.

So what you might mean is that wealth inequality has increased, which is a very different statement. As an easy way to look if we've become poorer (or equally poor), look at the standard of living of the average American household in 1945 or whatever and ask yourself if you would trade places.

Additionally, looking at wealth without income can also be misleading. For example a high school dropout has considerably greater wealth than a new college graduate with student loans, yet I doubt anyone would want to change places with them.
Click to expand...
Middle class income has substantially declined since 1999 as well.

median%20house%20income2.png


1280px-US_Real_Household_Median_Income_thru_2012.png
 
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Doc Savage Fan said:
Middle class income has substantially declined since 1999 as well.

median%20house%20income2.png
Click to expand...

And is still much, much higher than in the 1940's.

By the way it's also probably a bad idea to use household income at the height of a massive bubble as a reference point. That's not to say that household income gains over the last decade haven't been basically nonexistent, but still.
 
How does that chart support your position at all? We're clearly on the higher end of the range, and that's with bottoming out on recessionary wage declines. Given the pace of growth we are currently experiencing, wages are poised to rise.
 
Bitek said:
How does that chart support your position at all? We're clearly on the higher end of the range, and that's with bottoming out on recessionary wage declines. Given the pace of growth we are currently experiencing, wages are poised to rise.
Click to expand...
My position is that (1) middle class wealth has significantly eroded in terms of share of wealth as well as in terms real income and (2) ACA has contributed to middle class wealth erosion.

That said, I hope you're right...but I'll believe it when I see it.
 
Zorkorist said:
Zinfamous,

You seem to imagine, that now that Government owns health care, that waiting times at hospitals, for stubbed toes, will go down.

Why would you think that?

Health care is already socialized by insurance companies and Government. It has been for years. Do you expect inner city hospitals to become this clean place that schedules health care, versus the triage centers they are today?

Do you expect a mother with four children, working two jobs, to take time out of her day to visit a general practitioner?

What little miracle of socialism do you imagine Obama Care to be?

-John
Click to expand...

Yes, I obviously think a magic wand was waved across this country and all inefficiencies and all behavior was changed instantly.

are you daft?

Tell me this: why do you think a mother of 4 with 2 jobs would, when given the choice, prefer to take her kids or herself to an E-Room over urgent care? Those appointments can be made daily, and it's certainly faster than the Emergency waiting room.

Your hypothetical isn't exactly swimming in logic.
 
boomerang said:
I think that it's important to remember that for the true believers Obamacare is already a huge success regardless of how it is being implemented and regardless for how it shakes out in the future. They deem it a success because they judge it based on the intentions of the legislation. Zorkorist made some excellent points in reference to zinfamous' post. Whether that single mother of four living in the inner city is actually taking her children and herself in for regular exams doesn't really matter in the world of the believers. What is important is that they feel she is now able to do so. The problem, it's fixed! Check off the box and move onto the next item on the list.
Click to expand...

So, uhh, the fact that she's free to do so isn't good enough? I thought it was all about freedom & personal responsibility? Should we add some sort of compulsion to satisfy your authoritarian tendencies?

The people pointing out the shortcomings, the flaws in the legislation, the inconsistencies are deemed to be evil haters. Why? Because they are interfering with the feelings of accomplishment that the supporters of the legislation are reveling in. We're raining on their parade. The perceived problem has been fixed by a perceived solution and you guys are just, just making us have to think! Stop!

What's really mind boggling is the stubborn refusal to admit the flaws coupled with the outright refusal at any attempts to fix it. Which is why it may just be better to try and scuttle it altogether. Pull the band-off quickly versus listening to the whining and wailing as it's peeled back to apply some additional healing ointment. Perfect legislation crafted by perfect people is perfectly good and does not and will not be altered by imperfect people. Don't think at its base that those aren't the thought processes in play.

What's important is to remember that the legislation was based in lies, passed by telling lies and is being defended by lies. Lies are a cornerstone of the ideology of the progressive left. The end justifies the means and there are no lies too great to tell. Which takes us back to post #1 and Gruber exposing some of the lies.

Allow it to be fixed or watch it go away.
Click to expand...

Why, yes, of course- the answer is to invoke death & destitution for the weakest among us so that the system can be fixed. Just dump 'em!

Nobody has offered that the ACA is perfect but rather that Repub proposals to "fix it" have just been trojan horses. They are ideologically opposed to people depending on the govt of the people for anything- they want us to be totally dependent on their sacred system of Capitalism & their idols, the supposedly Job Creating Financial Elite. They just hide it behind appeals to emotion.
 
zinfamous said:
It's the royal "you."

Yes, it has made medical care better for "you," meaning, more people than before. This is undeniable. Some get the short end...for now. It will only get better, because the insurance companies will be squeezed out by forces they can no longer control. Emergency Care is no longer the primary source for millions that had no health care before. If you are unfamiliar with this aspect of poverty, then let me tell you that the significance of eliminating emergency care as primary care is astronomical. Costs in medical care for the rest of us aren't going to be realized as quickly as say, when the prince of SA shoots under par and decides to pump 10 billion more barrels of oil to celebrate his victory, thus driving down oil prices for the next month, but they will happen, and they will be across the board, and they will be permanent.

That is a fact. Care is only getting better, and it will only get better. And it is getting cheaper and yes, you will be paying less. That is a fact.

What the fatty in the radio booth chowing on beef jerky blathers into his microphone about the ebil muslim and his healthcare really shouldn't concern you. that guy is a fucking idiot, and he will be dead of multiple infarction in ~5 years. That is a fact.

patience, I guess? :\

There was a time in this country when we were all in this shit together. Now, no one seems to give a good goddamn about their neighbor. Thanks, Reagan!
Click to expand...
Aren't I someone's neighbor too? Don't I count?

I'm not stupid enough to ever believe that we could pay for all the new people without people like me paying more. I'm willing to accept that. Just don't piss on me and tell me it's raining. The only way I'm ever going to be paying less is when the quality of my health care has been driven low enough to more than support the uninsured. There is no free lunch, and just because you can use the armed might of government to force me to buy it doesn't make it free.

eskimospy said:
On one hand you have the actual numbers that show the ACA is performing quite well. On the other hand you have hand waving by people like boomerang. He can't admit that it is working well because it has become a foundational part of his ideology that it's Evil Tyranny.

What do you do about people who are so pathologically dishonest? I guess we ignore them and move on, as I can't think of any scenario where they admit to being wrong about this?
Click to expand...
So you believe Robert and I and so many more like us are pathologically dishonest? Right back at you.
 
werepossum said:
So you believe Robert and I and so many more like us are pathologically dishonest? Right back at you.
Click to expand...

I mean I feel like I've made that pretty clear. I've lost count of how many classes of people and organizations you've declared part of a massive conspiracy to trick you by telling you things that you find ideologically inconvenient.
 
shady28 said:
The economy is not well, anyone who thinks it is, isn't paying attention.
Click to expand...

Speaking of not paying attention, you linked charts from four years ago.

Did you do that because you didn't bother to read what you were linking to or were you deliberately trying to be dishonest? It's hard to think of a third alternative.
 
eskimospy said:
I mean I feel like I've made that pretty clear. I've lost count of how many classes of people and organizations you've declared part of a massive conspiracy to trick you by telling you things that you find ideologically inconvenient.
Click to expand...
Which is, not surprisingly, a blatantly dishonest statement of my positions.
 
werepossum said:
Which is, not surprisingly, a blatantly dishonest statement of my positions.
Click to expand...

lol.

It's entirely accurate, but if you were capable of the sort of self-reflection to realize it you probably wouldn't have made those posts to begin with, you know? It's sort of a chicken or the egg thing.
 
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