Growing weary of religious moral hypocrisy

[woolfe9998]

So, case in point to kick off this discussion is one disgusting piece of excrement named Josh Duggar.

He is the oldest of 19 children. Conservative religious parents. Home schooled. Father was in Arkansas state legislature for two terms. Family was already being profiled in the media 20 years ago, way before they got that big reality TV show on TLC in '08. Around 2003, the family was invited as guests on Oprah Winfrey, but the show cancelled after getting an e-mail tip that the eldest son, Josh, had been reported for serial child molesting.

Evidently, when Josh was 15ish, he repeatedly molested four of his sisters, all under 10, one who was 3 years old at the time. Also a babysitter. Apparently the parents found out and gave him a "stern talking to" but did nothing else, until 16 months later he was still doing it so dad decides to report it to the Arkansas state police. But the Arkansas police decide to do nothing about it at all, with the dad assuring them that Josh will get more stern talkings to and "religious counseling." So Oprah is informed about the police report and decides to cancel. But the public remains unaware.

Then, after all that, in 2008, the family gets this big high rated reality TV series called "19 and Counting" on TLC. And now Josh is this big celebrity! Yay for him. BTW, in the interim, he had gone to various religious rehab places for sick perverts and evidently pretended to repent for the whole thing. Confessed to many many people: parents, friends, friends of parents, elders in his church, religious organizations. They all knew about it. But now he's a celebrity! So the Family Research Council, conservative "moral majority" group hires him as their director of lobbying, for certain knowing about his past child molestation. So for over five years, while the TLC show was running, he's going around the country preaching about other people's sexual morality.

Then in 2015 all hell breaks loose. The police investigation which went nowhere in 2003 is made public, the report having been leaked to the press. Also revealed that he's paying big credit card charges to Ashley Madison, cheating on his wife with whom he now has 7 kids at age 32. He publicly admits to the whole thing, to being a scummy piece of crap, pulls a Jimmy Swaggart self-flagellation "I have sinned against you lord" act. But alas, he is finally forced to resign from FRC because now it was public. Public! And he'd embarrassed the organization which stood for pious religious morality, or so they say. Oh, also TLC cancels the show.

But wait, that isn't the end. Because three years later, in 2018, he's caught with a large cache of kiddy porn on his work computer! A stash which the special investigator said was in the "top 5 worst" he'd ever seen in his career. We're talking really sick shit here. One video depicts an 18 month old toddler being raped and tortured, for example.

Well, today the jury has spoken, guilty on all counts.

Josh Duggar found guilty of child pornography | CNN

A jury on Thursday found reality TV star Josh Duggar guilty of receipt of child pornography and possession of child pornography, according to the judgement filed in the United States District Court Western District of Arkansas Fayetteville Division.

www.cnn.com

Facing up to 20 years. May he rot in a cage for all eternity.

Christian evangelicals really need to stop telling other people how to live their lives. Because they aren't any better than anyone else. They're actually worse. They couldn't care less about the behavior of anyone in their tribe. They cover for it, sweep it under the rug. They do nothing until it goes public and then they take action only to cover their own asses.

 

[dank69]

Almost as sick is the fact that his wife enables his behavior.

 

[woolfe9998]

Almost as sick is the fact that his wife enables his behavior.

Yep, they all do. Even his sisters who were molested, IIRC at least one went on TV in 2015 saying she forgives him, he's back with Jesus now, whatever. Give me a fucking break.

It isn't even Josh's behavior. There are sick people everywhere. It's the behavior of those around him.

I don't care if these people want to say they believe in sky fairies or that the moon is made of cheese. They need to just stop wagging their fingers at other people for how they live their lives because their own morality is selective at best.

 

[MrSquished]

Conservative religious people in America are the worst people in the country. Because they pretend to be good guys. At least we know serious criminals are terrible. These people wrap themselves in the flag and church and their whiteness and forgive themselves.

 

[woolfe9998]

Conservative religious people in America are the worst people in the country.

Judging by the impact of their behavior on the most important democracy in the world today, I'd say they're some of the worst people on the planet right now.

Because they pretend to be good guys. At least we know serious criminals are terrible. These people wrap themselves in the flag and church and their whiteness and forgive themselves.

Yes, it's because they pretend.

This reminds me of some ruminations I've had over the TV show "Succession." It's very loosely based on the Murdoch family and their media empire. Anyway, I was wondering why I watch the show and despise every character on it with white hot intensity, yet I can watch a show like "The Sopranos" about violent mobsters and, while I don't like them at all and certainly don't approve of their behavior, they don't bother me near as much.

It's because mobsters and street criminals quite obviously are who they are and don't really pretend to be better than anyone else. While button down corporate billionaires who lie, cheat, steal and spread false and dangerous propaganda do far more damage to society than do common criminals. Yet they pretend they are better. Indeed, they like to pretend they are the best.

It's no different with religious people. It's all pretense. That is why I can't stand them.

 

[eelw]

And the Q movement ultimately started to catch child molesters. Funny they avoid looking in the mirror to find the actual monsters

 

[pmv]

Judging by the impact of their behavior on the most important democracy in the world today, I'd say they're some of the worst people on the planet right now.



Yes, it's because they pretend.

This reminds me of some ruminations I've had over the TV show "Succession." It's very loosely based on the Murdoch family and their media empire. Anyway, I was wondering why I watch the show and despise every character on it with white hot intensity, yet I can watch a show like "The Sopranos" about violent mobsters and, while I don't like them at all and certainly don't approve of their behavior, they don't bother me near as much.

It's because mobsters and street criminals quite obviously are who they are and don't really pretend to be better than anyone else. While button down corporate billionaires who lie, cheat, steal and spread false and dangerous propaganda do far more damage to society than do common criminals. Yet they pretend they are better. Indeed, they like to pretend they are the best.

It's no different with religious people. It's all pretense. That is why I can't stand them.

That's an interesting point. I have to say I never watched The Sopranos because (from the odd bits I saw and everything I heard about it), that despite the fact it looked extremely well-made and well-written, I reckoned I'd find it all just too depressing.

I haven't seen "Succession" either. But I think I'd feel differently about it from the Sopranos. There's something extra-bonus-depressing about "blue collar" crime. The people at the bottom preying on their own, and taking their values uncritically from the established gangsters at the top. Crime is aspirational, most of all the organised kind. It's about buying into entrepreneurial capitalist values, when you don't quite have the social or material resources to do it by the rules.

It's pretty much how the ruling elites became the ruling elites in the first place. All aristocrats and elite families started off as a kind of mafiosi (wasn't the Kennedy patriarch a bootlegger? Though normally it means going back through many more generations than that, certainly in Europe).

I think that's why a lot of seriously posh people like hanging out with gangster types. They remind them of their ancestors.

 

[woolfe9998]

That's an interesting point. I have to say I never watched The Sopranos because (from the odd bits I saw and everything I heard about it), that despite the fact it looked extremely well-made and well-written, I reckoned I'd find it all just too depressing.

I haven't seen "Succession" either. But I think I'd feel differently about it from the Sopranos. There's something extra-bonus-depressing about "blue collar" crime. The people at the bottom preying on their own, and taking their values uncritically from the established gangsters at the top. Crime is aspirational, most of all the organised kind. It's about buying into entrepreneurial capitalist values, when you don't quite have the social or material resources to do it by the rules.

It's pretty much how the ruling elites became the ruling elites in the first place. All aristocrats and elite families started off as a kind of mafiosi (wasn't the Kennedy patriarch a bootlegger? Though normally it means going back through many more generations than that, certainly in Europe).

I think that's why a lot of seriously posh people like hanging out with gangster types. They remind them of their ancestors.

Watch both shows then get back to me about which set of characters bothers you more. The ones who say "hey Rocco, let's go whack that guy" or the ones who decide to have their conservative network push the fascist candidate in the GOP primary because it's better for their ratings. All are sociopaths. One set is more damaging to society than the other. And the blue collar criminals at least have the excuse of coming from rough backgrounds. The others had all the best education and opportunity and turned out as monsters.

If you do actually watch them, I can just about guaranty you'll like Tony Soprano more than Logan Roy.

 

[hal2kilo]

The blatant hypocrisy EDIT: OF ITS MEMBERS, is why I gave up on Christianity over 40 years ago. Everybody else better practice what they preach though.

Edit: A former acolyte, torch bearer, and cross bearer.

 

[trenchfoot]

In a certain narrowly defined way the Repubs can't have a problem with being morally hypocritical because to begin with, they've already abandoned their morals in their effort to emulate Trump's total lack of and disregard for it. They have no morals to be hypocritical about.

 

[mect]

One of the most toxic aspects of Christianity is the weaponization of forgiveness to flog the victims so that the aggressor can feel better about himself and go on to ruin the lives of countless others. It is so disgusting.

 

[pmv]

Watch both shows then get back to me about which set of characters bothers you more. The ones who say "hey Rocco, let's go whack that guy" or the ones who decide to have their conservative network push the fascist candidate in the GOP primary because it's better for their ratings. All are sociopaths. One set is more damaging to society than the other. And the blue collar criminals at least have the excuse of coming from rough backgrounds. The others had all the best education and opportunity and turned out as monsters.

If you do actually watch them, I can just about guaranty you'll like Tony Soprano more than Logan Roy.

It's not so much a question of who I'd like or dislike more, as which I'd find more _depressing_ to see. With the elite establishment gangsters it seems simpler - they are just the enemy and you hate them. As I do the actual Murdoch clan.

With the lower-class ones there's an additional element of despair thrown in, because these are the people among whom you'd want to find some hope for positive change. If the rot runs, undifferentiated, from the top to the bottom, then it suggests maybe there isn't any hope, it's just human nature to be like that. It's not the result of a 'system', it's just the way people are.

I've only seen a few excerpts of the Sopranos, plus much of one single episode, and it did seem like it was extremely well-written and acted. But, as I say, I just felt I'd find it far too _depressing_.

 

[pmv]

One of the most toxic aspects of Christianity is the weaponization of forgiveness to flog the victims so that the aggressor can feel better about himself and go on to ruin the lives of countless others. It is so disgusting.

Not sure what you are referring to with this. Can you elaborate?

It does seem that the US form of Christianity is _particularly_ keen on fetishising 'forgiveness'. US Christians _love_ themselves a reformed sinner. In fact it seems to spread beyond Christianity, it's like a trope of US culture as a whole. It's as if the more despicable you previously were, the greater your moral authority once you have 'repented'.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hypocrisy is a product of a human paradox the world is blind to by motivation. It is like the dark place the Ben Gesserit Witches can't look into. People can't survive feeling like the worst person in the world and that was how we were all made to feel as children. To protect ourselves from a conscious and unending existence in a state of disgraced agony, we convert to whatever moral system is imposed on us to rectify our so called evil. And voila, suddenly we are good people again, proponents of the highest moral standards, except, except, we died to the only real source of joy that one can have in life and that is real self respect and real genuine being. We are phonies living in a state of unconscious pain, a pain that drives us back to repeat the so called original sin. This is the paradox. We died psychically as the imposition of guilt and sin we were made to believe and are driven emotionally to go back and relive it because it was in the act of so called sin we lost our true being. We are thus unconsciously driven to relive our traumatic psychic but we are terrified of the actual memory of the actual traumatic event. So we seek evil vicariously while being unaware of that intent. And this is true of us all, a life of constant urges to do something evil while denying that awareness to consciousness.

This is going to manifest the most in cultures that repress humanity by fear of sin, namely, people whose fear of damnation is driven by religious belief. But there are a million forms of sacred cows, one of them being contempt for hypocrites. If people could look in the mirror and actually see what is there they would know this isn't a good idea. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, remember? This is why. It is the ego that is the hypocrite. Who among us does not have one?

 

[Moonbeam]

Not sure what you are referring to with this. Can you elaborate?

It does seem that the US form of Christianity is _particularly_ keen on fetishising 'forgiveness'. US Christians _love_ themselves a reformed sinner. In fact it seems to spread beyond Christianity, it's like a trope of US culture as a whole. It's as if the more despicable you previously were, the greater your moral authority once you have 'repented'.

I would give everything I own for someone else to tell me I am forgiven because the last thing on earth I would ever do is remember being made to feel like a sinner and seeing it was a mistake. That pain is buried under a ton of rage and I must never get angry. I am a good boy and have learned to behave.

 

[dank69]

Not sure what you are referring to with this. Can you elaborate?

It does seem that the US form of Christianity is _particularly_ keen on fetishising 'forgiveness'. US Christians _love_ themselves a reformed sinner. In fact it seems to spread beyond Christianity, it's like a trope of US culture as a whole. It's as if the more despicable you previously were, the greater your moral authority once you have 'repented'.

I think he means the idea that if the victim doesn't forgive the aggressor the victim is now the aggressor.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Was sick of their hypocrisy in the 80's, and it's only gotten worse over the decades.

 

[IronWing]

I think he means the idea that if the victim doesn't forgive the aggressor the victim is now the aggressor.

That's the problem I see with so called "restorative justice" programs. These programs put the onus on the victim to aid the perp in healing. Often, the victim wanted nothing to do with the perp in the first place and now they are being pressured to continue interacting with the perp.

 

[mect]

Not sure what you are referring to with this. Can you elaborate?

It does seem that the US form of Christianity is _particularly_ keen on fetishising 'forgiveness'. US Christians _love_ themselves a reformed sinner. In fact it seems to spread beyond Christianity, it's like a trope of US culture as a whole. It's as if the more despicable you previously were, the greater your moral authority once you have 'repented'.

Consider a case like this where you have a young man that is sexually molesting children. Many Christian faiths will try to keep it quiet so long as the man behaves piously. They will try to handle the event internally, thinking repentance and forgiveness will change the man, often leaving him in a position where he continues to have access to victims. Additionally, if victims or those concerned about the victims speak up, try to make the case public, these individuals are often socially punished. They are portrayed being unwilling to forgive, as not accepting Jesus into their lives. This largely stems from verses like the following:

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And so the victims are silenced and the offender remains free to find additional victims.

Also, you make a great observation on the US fetishizing the reformed sinner. I think it feeds into the same trope as the self made man. If a person can reform, if a person can make it out of nothing, then it doesn't matter if we have systems in place that repress the majority of people. These anecdotes are held up as evidence that the system isn't the problem. It's the lazy individuals.

 

[cytg111]

I would give everything I own for someone else to tell me I am forgiven because the last thing on earth I would ever do is remember being made to feel like a sinner and seeing it was a mistake. That pain is buried under a ton of rage and I must never get angry. I am a good boy and have learned to behave.

Dude, you’re missing the mark by a few lightyears here. Only you can forgive you. Its easy. I do it daily.

 

[brandonbull]

Conservative religious people in America are the worst people in the country. Because they pretend to be good guys. At least we know serious criminals are terrible. These people wrap themselves in the flag and church and their whiteness and forgive themselves.

No different than Progressheviks. Racist, bigot, misogynistic fascists claiming everyone else is a racist, bigot, misogynistic fascist. The extreme zealot attitude in a belief system from the right and left wing nuts allows disturbed individuals to flourish.

 

[sandorski]

Cool

 

[Moonbeam]

Dude, you’re missing the mark by a few lightyears here. Only you can forgive you. Its easy. I do it daily.

So does almost every Christian. I am talking about something that is understood only rarely as far as I can tell. Real self forgiveness is a matter of grace. You can't forgive yourself or anyone else without it. Forgiveness requires the death of the ego. It is just more ego for the ego to forgive itself. To forgive is to die to sin, the illusion that sin exists. To forgive is to return to a state of innocence, surrender or assent into Gods will, the realization that all that happens happens exactly as it must and that minus will or via Gods Will everything that happens is perfect. There is no where to go, nothing to become, nothing to forgive, only that I AM, the Alpha and the Omega, soup to nuts.

But I do know what you mean.

 

[thraashman]

And the Q movement ultimately started to catch child molesters. Funny they avoid looking in the mirror to find the actual monsters

And none of the Q pages I've happened across have said a thing about Duggar, but boy oh boy did they have a bunch to say about Jussie Smollett. It's almost like Q is just another extremist right wing bigoted movement populated with the dumbest people to have ever existed in all of human history.

 

[sportage]

And the Q movement ultimately started to catch child molesters. Funny they avoid looking in the mirror to find the actual monsters

Well.... not quite all of them are they catching.



Just because some Christians claim to be "the chosen of Christians" doesn't mean they are chosen nor Christian. Evangelicals and Pentecostals are the worst. And now they have a real dilemma before them, having turned to Trump and into the Q. They no longer believe in the bible they preach from because according to Q that bible was "altered" by the kings in those biblical days. Thus, the truth was deleted and withheld and todays bible is all fake. I suppose Q-Christians claim that todays bible is faked because the prophecies and revelations of TRUMP are missing.

However, it all makes sense. It is said that false prophets will deceive millions. And those millions to be deceived are and have been the Christians. Those Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians believe "the deceived" will be the non-Christians i.e. Muslims and Hindu and Buddhist, etc etc. But that doesn't make sense simply because Muslims and Hindu and Buddhist are not nor have ever been so called Christian. And so, how can one who has never been a Christian then be deceived?
Think about it....