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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
And all the while the poor, unwitting borrower never had the ability to say no.

LOL, people like you are no better than the wealthy. You want all the benefits of capitalism but without all those pesky responsibilities such as knowing your limits. You want the boom without the bust. Good luck with that.

Nice bit of false attribution.

What I'd prefer is a return to New Deal principles- that you can't crash unless you've flown too high, so we're better off with policy that inhibits false "growth".

Obviously, that's not what either EU or US financial regulations provided at all. They just provided looting opportunities in an unrestrained rush to breakdown & additional opportunities on the way down. Lenders offered "creative financial products" that disguised debt as swaps, enabling borrowing well beyond sustainability. All perfectly legal, of course, as was the securitizing of such instruments thus passing liability onto investors rather than lenders. They were then free to bet against their own creations in synthetic derivatives.

If you want to say that people in Greek govt were complicit, I won't argue. I'm sure they were well compensated for their efforts, one way or another. They & their bankers are the only real winners in all this.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
I'll admit to not being well versed on Greek taxation, but from what little I've read it sounds as though they don't have the taxes in place, and that there are massive loopholes that allow people to get away with things like paying almost nothing for property taxes.

But I could be wrong.

Its a situation with multiple dimensions. And I think that it could have important future implications. As I mentioned before, I think that Michael Lewis has some insight about Greece. For example:

Michael Lewis in Vanity Fair
...The general idea seems to be that while the Greek people will never listen to any internal call for sacrifice they might listen to calls from outside. That is, they no longer really even want to govern themselves.

Thousands upon thousands of government employees take to the streets to protest the bill. Here is Greece’s version of the Tea Party: tax collectors on the take, public-school teachers who don’t really teach, well-paid employees of bankrupt state railroads whose trains never run on time, state hospital workers bribed to buy overpriced supplies. Here they are, and here we are: a nation of people looking for anyone to blame but themselves. The Greek public-sector employees assemble themselves into units that resemble army platoons. In the middle of each unit are two or three rows of young men wielding truncheons disguised as flagpoles. Ski masks and gas masks dangle from their belts so that they can still fight after the inevitable tear gas. “The deputy prime minister has told us that they are looking to have at least one death,” a prominent former Greek minister had told me. “They want some blood.” Two months earlier, on May 5, during the first of these protest marches, the mob offered a glimpse of what it was capable of. Seeing people working at a branch of the Marfin Bank, young men hurled Molotov cocktails inside and tossed gasoline on top of the flames, barring the exit. Most of the Marfin Bank’s employees escaped from the roof, but the fire killed three workers, including a young woman four months pregnant. As they died, Greeks in the streets screamed at them that it served them right, for having the audacity to work. The events took place in full view of the Greek police, and yet the police made no arrests...

The Marfin Bank’s marble stoop has been turned into a sad shrine: a stack of stuffed animals for the unborn child, a few pictures of monks, a sign with a quote from the ancient orator Isocrates: “Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”
Somehow, I don't have confidence that the Greek Debt Issue is going to end well. From one perspective, this is a showdown between the Greek Government and the International Banking System.

(Which is a subset of a larger dynamic that is corporations, including banks, have become international. Governments have remained national. Their relationship has become asymmetric. With the Governments becoming less powerful and corporations becoming more powerful. With the question of which one is more powerful being an open question. But that's a different topic.)

From my perspective, this is a showdown that the Greek Government can't win... Though, its not clear that the Banking System can win either...

Which makes the whole situation interesting...

Uno
 
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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Its a situation with multiple dimensions. And I think that it could have important future implications. As I mentioned before, I think that Michael Lewis has some insight about Greece. For example:

Michael Lewis in Vanity Fair
Somehow, I don't have confidence that the Greek Debt Issue is going to end well. From one perspective, this is a showdown between the Greek Government and the International Banking System.

(Which is a subset of a larger dynamic that is corporations, including banks, have become international. Governments have remained national. Their relationship has become asymmetric. With the Governments becoming less powerful and corporations becoming more powerful. With the question of which one is more powerful being an open question. But that's a different topic.)

From my perspective, this is a showdown that the Greek Government can't win... Though, its not clear that the Banking System can win either...

Which makes the whole situation interesting...

Uno

hmm interesting.

seems greece is fucked and the rest of the world is tired of bailing them out. they dont' learn and continue the spiral down.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Its a situation with multiple dimensions. And I think that it could have important future implications. As I mentioned before, I think that Michael Lewis has some insight about Greece. For example:

Michael Lewis in Vanity Fair
Somehow, I don't have confidence that the Greek Debt Issue is going to end well. From one perspective, this is a showdown between the Greek Government and the International Banking System.

(Which is a subset of a larger dynamic that is corporations, including banks, have become international. Governments have remained national. Their relationship has become asymmetric. With the Governments becoming less powerful and corporations becoming more powerful. With the question of which one is more powerful being an open question. But that's a different topic.)

From my perspective, this is a showdown that the Greek Government can't win... Though, its not clear that the Banking System can win either...

Which makes the whole situation interesting...

Uno

Greece sounds like they're on their way back to the third world. Though I disagree with his likening that group to the Tea Party. It sounds more like the Occupy movement.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Greece sounds like they're on their way back to the third world. Though I disagree with his likening that group to the Tea Party. It sounds more like the Occupy movement.
They are exactly the Occupy movement. Even their "right wing" parties are simply demanding their entitlements.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
They are exactly the Occupy movement. Even their "right wing" parties are simply demanding their entitlements.

While I don't disagree with what I think you mean, I would like to point out that the Occupy movement never won a national election...

My perception of the situation in Greece is that we have a democracy that, in essence, has voted not to pay their debts to the International Banking System.

Which then raises the question "Who runs Greece, the International Banks, or the Voters?"

From another perspective, the question becomes: "Who has more power, a small nation, like Greece, or the International Banking System?"

What is clear is that the status quo will not hold. Though, what the future holds is not clear.

And that's why I think that this situation is interesting...

Uno
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
They are exactly the Occupy movement. Even their "right wing" parties are simply demanding their entitlements.

Please. Your characterization of the Occupy movement is scurrilous. What they mostly wanted was fairness, jobs & opportunities, things still in short supply.

Their manifesto-

http://usliberals.about.com/od/soci...-Manifesto-Of-Occupy-Wall-Street-Movement.htm

Even Tea Partiers would agree with parts of it, if they read it rather than accepting what Fox News says about it.

Our system is as corrupt as that of Greece, just in a different way.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
While I don't disagree with what I think you mean, I would like to point out that the Occupy movement never won a national election...

My perception of the situation in Greece is that we have a democracy that, in essence, has voted not to pay their debts to the International Banking System.

Which then raises the question "Who runs Greece, the International Banks, or the Voters?"

From another perspective, the question becomes: "Who has more power, a small nation, like Greece, or the International Banking System?"

What is clear is that the status quo will not hold. Though, what the future holds is not clear.

And that's why I think that this situation is interesting...

Uno

Greece gave up their sovereignty to the banks when Greece decided it wanted to live a lavish lifestyle their that economic output couldn't support. Low taxes and retiring at 50 is great until you realize that somebody somewhere has to work to support it. In this case, it was people elsewhere in the world supporting that lifestyle, so now the rest of the world owns their asses. If they don't want to play ball, that's their prerogative, they just can't expect the world to give a shit when their economy collapses. Nobody is interested in bankrolling their lazy lifestyles anymore.
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Please. Your characterization of the Occupy movement is scurrilous. What they mostly wanted was fairness, jobs & opportunities, things still in short supply.

Their manifesto-

http://usliberals.about.com/od/soci...-Manifesto-Of-Occupy-Wall-Street-Movement.htm

Even Tea Partiers would agree with parts of it, if they read it rather than accepting what Fox News says about it.

Our system is as corrupt as that of Greece, just in a different way.

People on both sides have noted on plenty of occasions that the Tea Party and Occupy have many goals in common. They're separated however by fringe ideology and means of obtaining goals.

And yes, our system in many ways is just as corrupt. We're far more productive than Greece is, which has kept our bacon out of the fire, but if trends continue we could someday look very similar. Of course we also have the US military to make sure the dollar stays the world reserve currency, just in case any countries decide to get uppity.....
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
O_O

The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true. “We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,” Manos put it to me. “And yet there isn’t a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.” The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland’s. Greeks who send their children to public schools simply assume that they will need to hire private tutors to make sure they actually learn something. There are three government-owned defense companies: together they have billions of euros in debts, and mounting losses. The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as “arduous” is as early as 55 for men and 50 for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than 600 Greek professions somehow managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hairdressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on. The Greek public health-care system spends far more on supplies than the European average—and it is not uncommon, several Greeks tell me, to see nurses and doctors leaving the job with their arms filled with paper towels and diapers and whatever else they can plunder from the supply closets.
...
When Papaconstantinou arrived here, last October, the Greek government had estimated its 2009 budget deficit at 3.7 percent. Two weeks later that number was revised upward to 12.5 percent and actually turned out to be nearly 14 percent. He was the man whose job it had been to figure out and explain to the world why. “The second day on the job I had to call a meeting to look at the budget,” he says. “I gathered everyone from the general accounting office, and we started this, like, discovery process.” Each day they discovered some incredible omission. A pension debt of a billion dollars every year somehow remained off the government’s books, where everyone pretended it did not exist, even though the government paid it; the hole in the pension plan for the self-employed was not the 300 million they had assumed but 1.1 billion euros; and so on. “At the end of each day I would say, ‘O.K., guys, is this all?’ And they would say ‘Yeah.’ The next morning there would be this little hand rising in the back of the room: ‘Actually, Minister, there’s this other 100-to-200-million-euro gap.’ ”

This went on for a week. Among other things turned up were a great number of off-the-books phony job-creation programs. “The Ministry of Agriculture had created an off-the-books unit employing 270 people to digitize the photographs of Greek public lands,” the finance minister tells me. “The trouble was that none of the 270 people had any experience with digital photography. The actual professions of these people were, like, hairdressers.”
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
"Working" is the key word. ;)

It's easy to run that number up when only half of the country is working. Greece's labor participation rate is around 53%, the US is around 63%
 

Adams200

Member
Feb 28, 2015
32
0
0
Its the EU leaders who should have come up with much more drastic measures long time ago. Too late to cry now.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
It's hard not to think Greece is just a harbinger of other democracies. Nothing about the Greeks seems especially unique or different, other than the fact that they managed to wreck their democracy first, ahead of the rest of the first world. Still, looking at most other mature democracies dealing with budget deficit issues, it seems to just be a fact of human nature - eventually, the temptation to vote yourself a portion of your neighbor's wealth or, better yet, wealth borrowed against future generations who aren't yet around to complain about it, is just too powerful for most of us to resist. After all, wasn't the US mortgage 'crisis' fueled by people getting or refinancing into mortgages they knew (if they actually stopped to think about it) they'd never be able to afford?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It's hard not to think Greece is just a harbinger of other democracies. Nothing about the Greeks seems especially unique or different, other than the fact that they managed to wreck their democracy first, ahead of the rest of the first world. Still, looking at most other mature democracies dealing with budget deficit issues, it seems to just be a fact of human nature - eventually, the temptation to vote yourself a portion of your neighbor's wealth or, better yet, wealth borrowed against future generations who aren't yet around to complain about it, is just too powerful for most of us to resist. After all, wasn't the US mortgage 'crisis' fueled by people getting or refinancing into mortgages they knew (if they actually stopped to think about it) they'd never be able to afford?
Probably, but there are still important differences. Social Security retirement age is now 70, a far cry from 50 and moving in the actuarial direction of increasing lifespan. There are still thirty year pensions, but they tend to be in government or in physically demanding trades financed via union funds rather than taxes. And I agree to an extent about the mortgage crisis, but that seems to me to be a fairly small part of the crash. I'd say that bankers lending more than can be repaid is a bigger problem than people wanting to borrow more than can be repaid. And bankers aren't always honest. When I bought my house in the 80s the bank seriously pushed a variable rate mortgage, and it was only through repeated efforts did get the actual information about how the rates were set. They are set artificially low, so that if interest rates don't change your mortgage rate still increases. How many people took out mortgages they could barely afford (often based on home values artificially inflated by in-house appraisers to increase loan value in resale) only to find that the monthly payment increased beyond their means even if interest rates didn't increase? I don't want to excuse borrowers - I think the crash was all of us, we all went a little crazy - but I do think the part played by borrowers can easily be inflated out of proportion.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Sounds a whole lot like Mexico. They somehow believe it's our responsibility to fix their problems, and if we don't, they threaten to flood us with even more illegals. When will countries like the US and Germany finally learn that being able to control who comes into your country (and as importantly, who doesn't) is absolutely critical?

If we get beyond politics, maybe we can realize that people are escaping bad conditions for themselves and their families. They are trying to get a better life in whatever country they deem to be "better" than the country they live in. They are people - not illegals.

I understand that we modern people have things such as borders, green cards, fingerprint scans and all sorts of stuff to keep us "secure" but in the end, people only care about their own well being. They will do things such as try to get into another country, whether the legal way or the way of sneaking in. They are trying to survive or escape from a very difficult life. They don't care about politics (or at least not more than their standard of living).
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Its a situation with multiple dimensions. And I think that it could have important future implications. As I mentioned before, I think that Michael Lewis has some insight about Greece. For example:

Michael Lewis in Vanity Fair
Somehow, I don't have confidence that the Greek Debt Issue is going to end well. From one perspective, this is a showdown between the Greek Government and the International Banking System.

(Which is a subset of a larger dynamic that is corporations, including banks, have become international. Governments have remained national. Their relationship has become asymmetric. With the Governments becoming less powerful and corporations becoming more powerful. With the question of which one is more powerful being an open question. But that's a different topic.)

From my perspective, this is a showdown that the Greek Government can't win... Though, its not clear that the Banking System can win either...

Which makes the whole situation interesting...

Uno

The system is so intertwined that if Greece falls it could have a domino effect throughout Europe which will inevitably have global consequences. There is a ton of debate on how harsh those consequences will be but it's the reason the EU has been bailing Greece out for so long.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Greece was simply a target economy for the machinations of the banking elite.

On the day the 2001 deal was struck, the government owed the bank about 600 million euros ($793 million) more than the 2.8 billion euros it borrowed

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels

If you think the big banks fucked this country with the Ownership Society, wait til you see how they treat Greece.

Free market world economy in a deregulated international banking environment, right?
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
98960812f9022170c735a13ea06bf19dab9015faa49c4f062986b2804f9a213f.jpg


Most Germans now believe that Greece shouldn't stay in the Eurozone, a survey published on Friday shows.

Germany angered by refugee comments

Meanwhile Interior Minister Thomas De Maizière demanded on Thursday that Greece explain a threat made by its Defence Minister to send refugees to Berlin.“

We will ask very precisely what the official position of the Greek government is on this issue,” de Maizière said at a meeting on the EU-Interior ministers council in Brussels on Thursday evening.

“If it was so that mirgartiona and refugee isssues were being mixed with the debate on financial aid, that would receive a very clear answer from us,” Die Zeit reported the Interior Minister as saying.

Greek defence minister Panos Kammenos threatened on Sunday to dump refugees in his country on Berlin if Germany did not support Greece in debt crisis talks.

Somehow I don't think that threats will have a positive impact on this situation.

At the same time, the whole situation is starting to remind me of those videos that analyze aircraft crashes. X minutes to impact?

Only we don't know how many minutes X represents...

Uno