Greece about to default

[Slew Foot]

Economic looting has consequences.
Don't promise what you cannot pay.

Eventually, governments around the world will learn this. Maybe.

 

[werepossum]

We have seen how weak the bonds of the EU are. Greece is about to leave over disagreements over the terms of already failed austerity that Europe wants to continue to impose on it. The whole thing is a farce. You can't pretend like you have a real union if you let this happen. They are neighbors, not a family.

So tell us how many times you make your neighbor's house payment, then wave at him idling in his pool as you drive off to work?

Proggies decry "already failed austerity" without understanding that at some point, no one will loan you any more money. Greece is at that point now, and pretending they are running a surplus without including payments to service their massive debt is just silly. If they wish to live a German-equivalent lifestyle, then they are going to have to work as do the Germans, period. They can no longer borrow to make their payments plus subsidize their lifestyle.

 

[fskimospy]

So tell us how many times you make your neighbor's house payment, then wave at him idling in his pool as you drive off to work?

Proggies decry "already failed austerity" without understanding that at some point, no one will loan you any more money. Greece is at that point now, and pretending they are running a surplus without including payments to service their massive debt is just silly. If they wish to live a German-equivalent lifestyle, then they are going to have to work as do the Germans, period. They can no longer borrow to make their payments plus subsidize their lifestyle.

Why would that be silly? I don't think you understand what the purpose is. It is directly relevant to the situation at hand. If you default on your debt people won't loan you any more money, true. If you're running a primary surplus though, you don't need them to.

You should look more into the roots of these multiple crises. While it's true that Greece was hugely at fault for their circumstances, people need to realize that Germany has badly abused the Euro as well. Someday they will need to pay for it.

 

[TheSlamma]

So tell us how many times you make your neighbor's house payment, then wave at him idling in his pool as you drive off to work?

Proggies decry "already failed austerity" without understanding that at some point, no one will loan you any more money. Greece is at that point now, and pretending they are running a surplus without including payments to service their massive debt is just silly. If they wish to live a German-equivalent lifestyle, then they are going to have to work as do the Germans, period. They can no longer borrow to make their payments plus subsidize their lifestyle.

That neighbor in the pool just needs even more neighbors to loan him money then they also go to work

 

[werepossum]

Why would that be silly? I don't think you understand what the purpose is. It is directly relevant to the situation at hand. If you default on your debt people won't loan you any more money, true. If you're running a primary surplus though, you don't need them to.

You should look more into the roots of these multiple crises. While it's true that Greece was hugely at fault for their circumstances, people need to realize that Germany has badly abused the Euro as well. Someday they will need to pay for it.

That first is a good point, although if Greece simply defaults then I would expect many other penalties against them, if nothing else just to discourage other EU nations from running up huge debts and then defaulting.

That neighbor in the pool just needs even more neighbors to loan him money then they also go to work

lol No doubt.

 

[OutHouse]

Maybe not, but you don't foreclose on his house and leave him homeless, and then pretend you are actually a family.

Happens all the time.

or would you rather Germany moved in to do a little house cleaning?

 

[TheSlamma]

Happens all the time.

or would you rather Germany moved in to do a little house cleaning?

Remember OutHouse "It's only money" as long as it's OTHER peoples money

 

[Mursilis]

While it's true that Greece was hugely at fault for their circumstances, people need to realize that Germany has badly abused the Euro as well. Someday they will need to pay for it.

Please elaborate on this.

 

[Mursilis]

Eventually, governments around the world will learn this. Maybe.

Probably not. Populations have short political memories.

 

[norseamd]

Please elaborate on this.

The Dirty Little Secret of Berlin’s Bankers | Foreign Policy

Greece Needs to Start Playing Hardball With Germany | Foreign Policy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Criticism_of_Germany.27s_role

 

[Mursilis]

The Dirty Little Secret of Berlin’s Bankers | Foreign Policy

Greece Needs to Start Playing Hardball With Germany | Foreign Policy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Criticism_of_Germany.27s_role

Is any of that "abusing the Euro"? I'm not so sure. Regardless, it's hardly surprising that the Germans (mostly the rich ones - incomes for the rest have not grown nearly as much) are acting in their own self-interest in this mess. Most any country would do the same. Is it Germany's fault Greece got themselves into this position in the first place?

 

[werepossum]

Is any of that "abusing the Euro"? I'm not so sure. Regardless, it's hardly surprising that the Germans (mostly the rich ones - incomes for the rest have not grown nearly as much) are acting in their own self-interest in this mess. Most any country would do the same. Is it Germany's fault Greece got themselves into this position in the first place?

It's an article of faith among proggies that results can be extrapolated to measure fairness. Thus Germans, who work harder and longer than those in most European states and as a consequence earn more money, are proven to have abused the system. And thus, by manufacturing things that more people want to buy, the Germans are proven to have abused the system. And in this case, by insisting that Greece take action to be able to repay the LOANS they asked for and received, the Germans are proven to have abused the system.

It's a bizarre faith, but it has its internal consistency down pat. Except for people like Buffett anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

It's an article of faith among proggies that results can be extrapolated to measure fairness. Thus Germans, who work harder and longer than those in most European states and as a consequence earn more money, are proven to have abused the system. And thus, by manufacturing things that more people want to buy, the Germans are proven to have abused the system. And in this case, by insisting that Greece take action to be able to repay the LOANS they asked for and received, the Germans are proven to have abused the system.

It's a bizarre faith, but it has its internal consistency down pat. Except for people like Buffett anyway.

While it's always entertaining to watch you weave yet another 'proggie' conspiracy, you have no idea what you're talking about. Before you embarrass yourself further, stop.

Germany used the common currency area to artificially increase its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors. This has consequences. At least the Greeks are paying for theirs, but so far Germany is trying to avoid those consequences.

 

[Mursilis]

Germany used the common currency area to artificially increase its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors. This has consequences. At least the Greeks are paying for theirs, but so far Germany is trying to avoid those consequences.

So was Greece forced into the Eurozone? If this was such a bad deal for the rest of Europe, why'd they go along with it?

 

[werepossum]

While it's always entertaining to watch you weave yet another 'proggie' conspiracy, you have no idea what you're talking about. Before you embarrass yourself further, stop.

Germany used the common currency area to artificially increase its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors. This has consequences. At least the Greeks are paying for theirs, but so far Germany is trying to avoid those consequences.

It's always entertaining to watch you label any recognition of proggie behavior as a 'proggie conspiracy'. It isn't a conspiracy, it's just how you guys act. Witness this case - Germany and Greece have the exact same currency which both voluntarily accepted, yet you feel Greece are victims whereas Germany not only "artificially increase[d] its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors" but is bullying Greece by insisting they repay everything they have borrowed.

 

[fskimospy]

So was Greece forced into the Eurozone? If this was such a bad deal for the rest of Europe, why'd they go along with it?

It was actually one of the primary arguments against the Euro at the time of its adoption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area#European_Union

I think a lot of the EU downplayed the problems and focused on the benefits, foolishly in retrospect. Even if they were foolish enough to enter into that area Germany is still responsible for their actions.

 

[nageov3t]

Germany rebuffs Greek bid for crisis funds before default deadline

it's important to remember that these people actually have voters back home they have to answer to, and last I read, the idea another Greek bail-out was pretty unpopular in Western Europe.

 

[norseamd]

It's an article of faith among proggies that results can be extrapolated to measure fairness. Thus Germans, who work harder and longer than those in most European states and as a consequence earn more money, are proven to have abused the system. And thus, by manufacturing things that more people want to buy, the Germans are proven to have abused the system. And in this case, by insisting that Greece take action to be able to repay the LOANS they asked for and received, the Germans are proven to have abused the system.

It's a bizarre faith, but it has its internal consistency down pat. Except for people like Buffett anyway.

Bullshit. Did you even read the last link? I know you are not vehemently partisan and have integrity compared to some Republicans but this is a lot more complicated than the typical lazy liberals who want free handouts and never work bullshit.

There have been widespread accusations that Greeks are lazy, but analysis of OECD data shows that the average Greek worker puts in 50% more hours per year than a typical German counterpart,[337] and the average retirement age of a Greek is, at 61.7 years, older than that of a German.

 

[fskimospy]

It's always entertaining to watch you label any recognition of proggie behavior as a 'proggie conspiracy'. It isn't a conspiracy, it's just how you guys act. Witness this case - Germany and Greece have the exact same currency which both voluntarily accepted, yet you feel Greece are victims whereas Germany not only "artificially increase[d] its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors" but is bullying Greece by insisting they repay everything they have borrowed.

Where did I ever say Greece is a victim? Unlike you, I want both countries to account for their bad actions. You apparently want to let Germany off the hook, probably because you don't understand the issue.

Presumably you think it's wrong when China manipulates its currency. Why isn't it wrong when Germany does?

 

[norseamd]

It's always entertaining to watch you label any recognition of proggie behavior as a 'proggie conspiracy'. It isn't a conspiracy, it's just how you guys act. Witness this case - Germany and Greece have the exact same currency which both voluntarily accepted, yet you feel Greece are victims whereas Germany not only "artificially increase[d] its export competitiveness as compared to their neighbors" but is bullying Greece by insisting they repay everything they have borrowed.

Read the Wikipedia article. Honestly there is a lot of it I have not read of it but skipping through it, reading a few articles, and knowing just some of the bullshit in how bankers and financial consters operate makes clear to me what is going on right now. Yes lots of the old Greek government was to blame but they were engaging in fraud and corruption right alongside all the rest of the EU politicians and businessmen. How do you think most Greek citizens feel about this debacle?

 

[werepossum]

Germany rebuffs Greek bid for crisis funds before default deadline

it's important to remember that these people actually have voters back home they have to answer to, and last I read, the idea another Greek bail-out was pretty unpopular in Western Europe.

Gee, that's really odd considering that the left insists Greece is running a "primary surplus" and would be just peachy except for all the bother of paying back its loans.

Bullshit. Did you even read the last link? I know you are not vehemently partisan and have integrity compared to some Republicans but this is a lot more complicated than the typical lazy liberals who want free handouts and never work bullshit.

That's wikipedia, where literally anyone can post literally anything. We (as a forum) have had this discussion before and the Greek work considerably less and retire considerably earlier. It's well documented, especially so when one is retiring on a government check versus savings or private pensions.

Where did I ever say Greece is a victim? Unlike you, I want both countries to account for their bad actions. You apparently want to let Germany off the hook, probably because you don't understand the issue.

Presumably you think it's wrong when China manipulates its currency. Why isn't it wrong when Germany does?

Lobbying the EU for a particular fiscal policy is not manipulating the common currency. Germany has zero ability to manipulate the euro, they can only lobby the other members for their own preference.

When you argue that Germany should pay for its "bad actions" by forgiving Greece's debt whereas Greece should pay for its "bad actions" by getting free money, it's hard to come to any conclusion other than Greece is a victim.

 

[Mursilis]

It was actually one of the primary arguments against the Euro at the time of its adoption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_currency_area#European_Union

I think a lot of the EU downplayed the problems and focused on the benefits, foolishly in retrospect. Even if they were foolish enough to enter into that area Germany is still responsible for their actions.

So these various countries entered into a contract ("treaty") of their own free will after arms-length negotiations. The deal turns out to be better for one of the countries than another, so the better-off country has to make concessions to the other countries? Why, exactly?

 

[fskimospy]

So these various countries entered into a contract ("treaty") of their own free will after arms-length negotiations. The deal turns out to be better for one of the countries than another, so the better-off country has to make concessions to the other countries? Why, exactly?

Countries are sovereign, they don't 'have' to do anything. If Germany wants the Euro to function well they would probably be wise to, however.

Presumably the members of the Eurozone have a common desire to have their currency area operate efficiently and effectively for its members. One member nation's actions in particular have damaged this goal by trying to use the common currency area to make its exports more competitive without taking responsibility for the negative effects of this. It's reasonable for other members to take this into account moving forward. I imagine this will take place through tighter fiscal ties between nations, and perhaps certain countries getting tired of being screwed and abandoning the Euro.

This isn't about 'justice' or what's right.

 

[fskimospy]

Lobbying the EU for a particular fiscal policy is not manipulating the common currency. Germany has zero ability to manipulate the euro, they can only lobby the other members for their own preference.

This is bafflingly ignorant. Dunning-Kreuger effect in play again.

When you argue that Germany should pay for its "bad actions" by forgiving Greece's debt whereas Greece should pay for its "bad actions" by getting free money, it's hard to come to any conclusion other than Greece is a victim.

Can you point me to where I argued that Germany should pay for their bad actions by forgiving Greece's debt or where I thought Greece should pay for their bad actions by getting free money? Do you even know what you're arguing about anymore?

 

[glenn1]

So these various countries entered into a contract ("treaty") of their own free will after arms-length negotiations. The deal turns out to be better for one of the countries than another, so the better-off country has to make concessions to the other countries? Why, exactly?

For the same reason the left thinks the rich in this country should voluntarily submit to confiscatory taxes - because it's only "fair" and else the downtrodden proles may riot. Evidently the appeal to violence works on both an individual and nation-state levels.