Greece about to default

[nickqt]

That's a big chunk of cash for a nation the size of Greece. Their population is half that of Texas and I imagine their economy probably 20%. They're a poor country by western standards. Most of that is on them though, the Greeks are notorious layabouts and union lackeys even by European standards.

I wonder what would happen if China said "we'll bail you out, but you need to let us build a few military bases on your soil". I imagine the rest of the EU and the US would suddenly find some way help them out.

The Greeks are "notorious layabouts and union lackeys".

You clearly have no idea of why Greece is in this situation. So, please, continue just making shit up.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

The Greeks are "notorious layabouts and union lackeys".

You clearly have no idea of why Greece is in this situation. So, please, continue just making shit up.

Apparently you have no clue either.


Their crooked government worked alongside major international banks in Greece to fudge their debt and spending numbers because Greece badly wanted to get into the EU. That is the main reason they are in the plight they are and why they took bailout money which they are basically not going to pay off at expense of the EU and especially the German taxpayer. There is also the fact that most Greeks don't like paying the taxes for all the social welfare, government services, etc they expect to be provided to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Causes

In January 2010, the Greek Ministry of Finance highlighted in their Stability and Growth Program 2010 these five main causes for the significantly deteriorated economic results recorded in 2009 (compared to the published budget figures ahead of the year).

GDP growth rates: After 2008, GDP growth rates were lower than the Greek national statistical agency had anticipated. In the official report, the Greek ministry of finance reports the need for implementing economic reforms to improve competitiveness, among others by reducing salaries and bureaucracy, and the need to redirect much of its current governmental spending from non-growth sectors (e.g. military) into growth stimulating sectors.

Government deficit: Huge fiscal imbalances developed during the six years from 2004 to 2009, where "the output increased in nominal terms by 40%, while central government primary expenditures increased by 87% against an increase of only 31% in tax revenues." In the report the Greek Ministry of Finance states the aim to restore the fiscal balance of the public budget, by implementing permanent real expenditure cuts (meaning expenditures are only allowed to grow 3.8% from 2009 to 2013, which is below the expected inflation at 6.9%), and with overall revenues planned to grow 31.5% from 2009 to 2013, secured not only by new/higher taxes but also by a major reform of the ineffective Tax Collection System.

Government debt-level: Since it had not been reduced during the good years with strong economic growth, there was no room for the government to continue running large deficits in 2010, neither for the years ahead. Therefore, it was not enough for the government just to implement the needed long-term economic reforms, as the debt then rapidly would develop into an unsustainable size, before the results of such reforms were achieved. The report highlights the urgency to implement both permanent and temporary austerity measures that - in combination with an expected return of positive GDP growth rates in 2011 - would result in the baseline deficit decreasing from €30.6 billion in 2009 to only €5.7 billion in 2013, finally making it possible to stabilize the debt-level relative to GDP at 120% in 2010 and 2011, followed by a downward trend in 2012 and 2013.

Budget compliance: Budget compliance was acknowledged to be in strong need of future improvement, and for 2009 it was even found to be "A lot worse than normal, due to economic control being more lax in a year with political elections". In order to improve the level of budget compliance for upcoming years, the Greek government wanted to implement a new reform to strengthen the monitoring system in 2010, making it possible to keep better track on the future developments of revenues and expenses, both at the governmental and local level.

Statistical credibility: Problems with unreliable data had existed ever since Greece applied for membership of the Euro in 1999.[67] In the five years from 2005 to 2009, Eurostat each year noted a reservation about the fiscal statistical numbers for Greece, and too often previously reported figures got revised to a somewhat worse figure, after a couple of years.[68][69][70] In regards of 2009 the flawed statistics made it impossible to predict accurate numbers for GDP growth, budget deficit and the public debt; which by the end of the year all turned out to be worse than originally anticipated. Problems with statistical credibility were also evident in several other countries, however, in the case of Greece, the magnitude of the 2009 revisions and its connection to the crisis added pressure to the need for immediate improvement. In 2010, the Greek ministry of finance reported the need to restore the trust among financial investors, and to correct previous statistical methodological issues, "by making the National Statistics Service an independent legal entity and phasing in, during the first quarter of 2010, all the necessary checks and balances that will improve the accuracy and reporting of fiscal statistics".


In 1981, Greece started to have large fiscal deficits that remained high for a decade. The decade bequeathed the country with two significant problems: high public debt and low competitiveness.

The current account of Greece went into deficit at the beginning of the 1980s, the deficits were initially small and were treated with devaluations. Deficits began to grow since 1996 and especially after the introduction of euro in 2001

 

[nickqt]

Apparently you have no clue either.


Their crooked government worked alongside major international banks in Greece to fudge their debt and spending numbers because Greece badly wanted to get into the EU. That is the main reason they are in the plight they are and why they took bailout money which they are basically not going to pay off at expense of the EU and especially the German taxpayer. There is also the fact that most Greeks don't like paying the taxes for all the social welfare, government services, etc they expect to be provided to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Causes

No, it's not that "most Greeks" don't like to pay taxes.

The rich oligarchs who own and operate that country don't pay their taxes.

You can be damn sure the little guy in Greece pays taxes.

But, you're a conservative. Kiss up, punch down. It's your MO.

You've been trained well.

 

[norseamd]

But, you're a conservative. Kiss up, punch down. It's your MO.

Basically this.

 

[theeedude]

Even if Greece doesn't default now, it's going to stay on life support. I think they are better off defaulting and getting out of the Euro so their currency can adjust to where it needs to be to restore competitiveness.

 

[norseamd]

Even if Greece doesn't default now, it's going to stay on life support. I think they are better off defaulting and getting out of the Euro so their currency can adjust to where it needs to be to restore competitiveness.

This is probably what I think they need to do.

 

[Ns1]

No, it's not that "most Greeks" don't like to pay taxes.

The rich oligarchs who own and operate that country don't pay their taxes.

You can be damn sure the little guy in Greece pays taxes.

But, you're a conservative. Kiss up, punch down. It's your MO.

You've been trained well.

Read the bbc article. No they don't. Unless they're stupid.

 

[werepossum]

Apparently you have no clue either.


Their crooked government worked alongside major international banks in Greece to fudge their debt and spending numbers because Greece badly wanted to get into the EU. That is the main reason they are in the plight they are and why they took bailout money which they are basically not going to pay off at expense of the EU and especially the German taxpayer. There is also the fact that most Greeks don't like paying the taxes for all the social welfare, government services, etc they expect to be provided to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#Causes

Sorry, he's looking for (A) They were victimized by evil rich people.

If one settles on one and only one answer for all societal problems, one doesn't waste valuable time thinking. Ever.

 

[Victorian Gray]

No, it's not that "most Greeks" don't like to pay taxes.

The rich oligarchs who own and operate that country don't pay their taxes.

You can be damn sure the little guy in Greece pays taxes.

But, you're a conservative. Kiss up, punch down. It's your MO.

You've been trained well.

It's also the middle/professional class

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/09/greece-tax-evasion-professional-classes

For example:

"Interestingly, their report, Tax Evasion Across Industries: Soft Credit Evidence From Greece, which documents the hidden, non-taxed economy, blames the current malaise not on dodgy taxi drivers or moonlighting refuse collectors, but on the professional classes.

They found that €28bn (£22.4bn) of tax was evaded in 2009 by self-employed people alone.

As GDP that year was €235bn and the total tax base was just €98bn, it is clear that this was a significant sum. At a tax rate of 40%, it amounted to almost half the country's budget deficit in 2008, and 31% in 2009.

The chief offenders are professionals in medicine, engineering, education, accounting, financial services and law. Among the self-employed documented in the report are accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers."

 

[nickqt]

Sorry, he's looking for (A) They were victimized by evil rich people.

If one settles on one and only one answer for all societal problems, one doesn't waste valuable time thinking. Ever.

Don't you get tired of kissing up to the richest people in the solar system who laugh at the useful idiots lining up to defend them?

Yes, I blame me some of them rich people for every single problem, unlike you, who blame poor people for every single problem. You straw man me, and I'll do the same for you.

This should develop into a great conversation.

It's also the middle/professional class

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/09/greece-tax-evasion-professional-classes

For example:

"Interestingly, their report, Tax Evasion Across Industries: Soft Credit Evidence From Greece, which documents the hidden, non-taxed economy, blames the current malaise not on dodgy taxi drivers or moonlighting refuse collectors, but on the professional classes.

They found that €28bn (£22.4bn) of tax was evaded in 2009 by self-employed people alone.

As GDP that year was €235bn and the total tax base was just €98bn, it is clear that this was a significant sum. At a tax rate of 40%, it amounted to almost half the country's budget deficit in 2008, and 31% in 2009.

The chief offenders are professionals in medicine, engineering, education, accounting, financial services and law. Among the self-employed documented in the report are accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers."

So, more than just the rich evade taxes. The middle class does too.

Which means that, of course, it's the poor lazy people's fault for all of the Greek problems.

Young Bucks, T-bone Steaks and Cadillacs.

 

[Victorian Gray]

So, more than just the rich evade taxes. The middle class does too.

Which means that, of course, it's the poor lazy people's fault for all of the Greek problems.

Young Bucks, T-bone Steaks and Cadillacs.

Umm, I said/implied any of that where? I'm not one of those folks complaining about the lazy, swarthy Mediterranean 'race'.

There simply happens to be some pretty deep dysfunction in Greece and it's society and it all can't be dumped on the heads of the rich.

 

[nickqt]

Umm, I said/implied any of that where? I'm not one of those folks complaining about the lazy, swarthy Mediterranean 'race'.

There simply happens to be some pretty deep dysfunction in Greece and it's society and it all can't be dumped on the heads of the rich.

Relax. Take a breath. No one is attacking you or anything you said.

 

[theeedude]

Europe is just not serious about being a union. They are a bunch of fair weather friends who confused themselves for a family.

 

[norseamd]

Europe is just not serious about being a union. They are a bunch of fair weather friends who confused themselves for a family.

Funny that they probably never asked themselves why would they?

They have existed for millennia as independent cultures and only in the past 50 years has there ever been some type of total European unity in history.

Classical Rome was very large and covered all of the Mediterranean and much of the Atlantic coastline but even then many Europeans were never ruled by Rome. Arminius ended the Roman move into Germania and eventually it was the Germanics who took over the remnants of Western Rome which had been decaying for centuries of egotism and corruption.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

No, it's not that "most Greeks" don't like to pay taxes.

The rich oligarchs who own and operate that country don't pay their taxes.

You can be damn sure the little guy in Greece pays taxes.

But, you're a conservative. Kiss up, punch down. It's your MO.

You've been trained well.

LOL I love how you totally ignored EVERYTHING presented to you and only focused on something that you could attach a opinionated narrative too.

 

[werepossum]

Europe is just not serious about being a union. They are a bunch of fair weather friends who confused themselves for a family.

At some point many families have to cut off the lazy, spendthrift nephew who never grows up and never pulls his own weight. That doesn't make them not families.

 

[1prophet]

How much would the Parthenon go for? For sure the baby boomers here wouldn't hesitate to sell off our past to fund their retirement.

Seeing both first hand, they can keep it,


We have a full scale replica in Nashville with a statue of Athena in gold leaf inside.

And what do they have,

a broken down relic that they are spending millions to keep it looking like a broken down relic, instead of restoring it to its former glory

That sums up Greece's problem , they like to live in the glory of the past instead of solving the present problems that hold them back from any type of glorious future.

 

[Slew Foot]

lol, liberals blaming rich people for everything

 

[Ns1]

lol 5 days left and no deal in place. GGPO greece

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33265923

 

[Belegost]

Seeing both first hand, they can keep it,


We have a full scale replica in Nashville with a statue of Athena in gold leaf inside.

And what do they have,

a broken down relic that they are spending millions to keep it looking like a broken down relic, instead of restoring it to its former glory

That sums up Greece's problem , they like to live in the glory of the past instead of solving the present problems that hold them back from any type of glorious future.

I really hope my sarcasm meter is malfunctioning today...

 

[etrigan420]

I really hope my sarcasm meter is malfunctioning today...

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why would you go to Paris when you can see the Eiffel Tower *right on the Vegas strip*?

...or King's Island in Ohio, or King's Dominion in Virginia, or Epcot in Florida, or Paris, Texas (SEE WHAT THEY DID THERE???/)

And have you seen Stonehenge? THEY DON'T EVEN FIX THE BROKEN ROCKS!!!

 

[hal2kilo]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why would you go to Paris when you can see the Eiffel Tower *right on the Vegas strip*?

...or King's Island in Ohio, or King's Dominion in Virginia, or Epcot in Florida, or Paris, Texas (SEE WHAT THEY DID THERE???/)

And have you seen Stonehenge? THEY DON'T EVEN FIX THE BROKEN ROCKS!!!

Hell, we got a nice clean one here in the good ole US of A.

I would provide a link if I wasn't on the nook, but just drive down the Columbia river gorge on the WA side. Stop at Maryhill.
edit: that's a Stonehenge

 

[werepossum]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why would you go to Paris when you can see the Eiffel Tower *right on the Vegas strip*?

...or King's Island in Ohio, or King's Dominion in Virginia, or Epcot in Florida, or Paris, Texas (SEE WHAT THEY DID THERE???/)

And have you seen Stonehenge? THEY DON'T EVEN FIX THE BROKEN ROCKS!!!

lmao!

 

[K1052]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Why would you go to Paris when you can see the Eiffel Tower *right on the Vegas strip*?

I've actually heard that and other similar comments on basically every trip I've ever taken to Vegas. My eyes roll back so hard in my head I swear it's audible.

 

[Ns1]

Looks like we're at the end of the line.

Banks closed Monday, no increase in emergency liquidity, no deal extension.

GGPO Greece