Governor of New Jersey Blocks Hudson Tunnel Project

[Beattie]

You mean the the fact that the Bush tax cuts turned a surplus into a huge deficit over the last 10 years? Or that we outsourced our jobs to China for short term profits? Or that we deregulated the banks and got what we always get when we deregulate the banks? An enormous crash? Or do you mean that we neglected our infrastructure for the 10 years of the Bush tax cuts?

America is like the penny pincher who won't spend a dime to fix his house. One day it comes crashing down.

We didn't overspend. We under taxed. The national debt would be only be half what it is if we didn't just cut taxes recklessly under Bush and the Republicans. And only a quarter of what it is if we didn't deregulate the markets and cause the Great Recession.

This, my friends, is what is wrong with America today.

 

[SP33Demon]

article snip

I still don't see why you wouldn't just raise tolls for the people who are going to actually use the tunnel. Why make the rest of the state pay for it through taxes when they already contributed to it through the Transit's 3bil in toll money toward the tunnel?

It's typical of the American mindset, we simply cannot manage our money. NJDOT dropped the ball on their estimate, not Christie. How the fck do you mis-estimate a tunnel by -30-50% off? Maybe they figured they would just lowball it to get it approved and ask later once construction began because they figured there would be public outrage if someone tried to halt the project. Well an 8 billion dollar deficit for 2010 (and 32 total) is a funny thing, isn't it?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=adisA3U1gnAU

Rosen also predicted the state’s Unemployment Compensation Trust Fund Account, which pays out jobless benefits, would begin fiscal 2011 with a $2.2 billion deficit that will grow to $3.7 billion by the end of the year.

New Jersey’s unemployment rate climbed to 9.2 percent in June [2009], its highest since 1977.

With the recession arriving, it would be irresponsible to fund a new project when the UCTFA is already in a large deficit by 2.2 and expected to lose 8 this year. Another 2.5 - 5.5 for the tunnel isn't going to fly. Corzine already raised taxes on alcohol last year, and a major reason he wasn't re-elected was NJ's fiscal incompetency. I'm glad Christie took a stand and stuck to his guns from the election:

# Taxes: Christie has promised not to raise taxes. He has also vowed to lower the state income, property, and business taxes, with the qualification that this might not occur immediately: "I'm not saying I'm cutting taxes in the first year. The first thing we have to do is get our fiscal house in order, and that's going to be tough." He has not yet taken a position on the state's property tax rebate program.

While Corzine cut a lot of funding the state is still 32 bil in debt and funding projects the state cannot afford, while American as it gets, isn't going to happen this time. NJ is already overextended and needs to learn some fiscal responsibility. This is a step in the right direction, and I'm sure construction will continue a couple years down the road once Christie puts the state back in the black.

Yes, NJ has consistently been top 3 in Household Median Income and it's time to learn how to manage a fcking checkbook.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

 

[SunnyD]

Over 90 percent of the riders are people commuting from New Jersey to work in New York city. In fact, NY is probably being asked to pay more than its fair share. Most of the New Yorker ridership goes to New Jersey on the weekends to shop. Basically the tunnel is an economic advantage for New Jersey.

So, the current one hundred year old tunnel will max out within 10 years.

New Jersey will lose revenue from taxes their residents pay on their fat New York salaries. New Yorkers won't shop in Jersey.
And, the thousands of construction jobs will be lost during rough economic times. Meaning more foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc. Plus New Jersey real estate values will fall as it becomes more difficult to commute to New York jobs.

All in all, a huge loss for New Jersey. All because the New Jersey governor wants to run for President and is willing to do it on the backs of the citizens of New Jersey.

Oh, btw. The supposed "reason" he is is doing this is because they need the money to repair their current roads and bridges. Of course, New Jersey has the 5th lowest gas tax in the country. And that's why they don't have the money to fix the bridges and the roads. But the Jersey governor doesn't want the tax to go up, even a couple of three cents a gallon which would pay for all the bridge and road repairs.

THIS is the problem with America. We used to have the best telecommunication and transportation systems in the world. Now our asses have been beaten in internet speed, and we are losing our transportation systems.

Wow... so basically this will force NY and NJ to set up cottage economies not not rely on the rest of the "world"? Money will stay in and be spent in their respective local economies? Local employment rolls will go up?

Tell me again how this is a bad thing?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Wow... so basically this will force NY and NJ to set up cottage economies not not rely on the rest of the "world"? Money will stay in and be spent in their respective local economies? Local employment rolls will go up?

Tell me again how this is a bad thing?

There aren't millions of equivalent jobs in NJ maybe?

 

[SagaLore]

They should just build the rail system OVER the river.

 

[SP33Demon]

There aren't millions of equivalent jobs in NJ maybe?

I think the project would be good for both economies and most likely will be completed in the future during expansionary times (not contracting).

Hell, what is NJDOT going to do to ease congestion, stack the freeway and bridges? The only other answer with such a high population density is mass transit, more cars only add to the problem (like in Northern VA). Short of building a bridge, a train tunnel is the most cost effective solution.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

New Jersey has some of the highest tax rates in the country? Well, New Jersey has some of the highest salaries in the country.

What does a Nobel Prize for Economics winner say about the tunnnel?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/opinion/08krugman.html?_r=1&hp

The Erie Canal. Hoover Dam. The Interstate Highway System. Visionary public projects are part of the American tradition, and have been a major driver of our economic development.

But American politics these days is anything but rational. Republicans bitterly opposed even the modest infrastructure spending contained in the Obama stimulus plan. And, on Thursday, Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey, canceled America’s most important current public works project, the long-planned and much-needed second rail tunnel under the Hudson River.

It was a destructive and incredibly foolish decision on multiple levels. But it shouldn’t have been all that surprising. We are no longer the nation that used to amaze the world with its visionary projects. We have become, instead, a nation whose politicians seem to compete over who can show the least vision, the least concern about the future and the greatest willingness to pander to short-term, narrow-minded selfishness.

So, about that tunnel: with almost 1,200 people per square mile, New Jersey is the most densely populated state in America, more densely populated than any major European nation. Add in the fact that many residents work in New York, and you have a state that can’t function without adequate public transportation. There just isn’t enough space for everyone to drive to work.

But right now there’s just one century-old rail tunnel linking New Jersey and New York — and it’s running close to capacity. The need for another tunnel couldn’t be more obvious.

So last year the project began. Of the $8.7 billion in planned funding, less than a third was to come from the State of New Jersey; the rest would come, in roughly equal amounts, from the independent Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and from the federal government. Even if costs were to rise substantially, as they often do on big projects, it was a very good deal for the state.

But Mr. Christie killed it anyway.

News reports suggest that his immediate goal was to shift funds to local road projects and existing rail repairs. There were, however, much better ways to raise those funds, such as an increase in the state’s relatively low gasoline taxes — and bear in mind that whatever motorists gain from low gas taxes will be at least partly undone by pain from the canceled project in the form of growing congestion and traffic delays. But, no, in modern America, no tax increase can ever be justified, for any reason.

So this was a terrible, shortsighted move from New Jersey’s point of view. But that’s not the whole cost. Canceling the tunnel was also a blow to national hopes of recovery, part of a pattern of penny-pinching that has played a large role in our continuing economic stagnation.

So whats the most you think NJ should be willing to pay for this? $10B, 20B, 30B? At some point the price exceeds either the value the project ads to the state or in this case our ability to pay for it. Personally I'd like to see them cut somewhere else and do the project, but Christie has already cut pretty much everything thats cutable.

 

[SP33Demon]

They should just build the rail system OVER the river.

If they could do that then they would just build another bridge.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

New Jersey has some of the highest tax rates in the country? Well, New Jersey has some of the highest salaries in the country.

typical liberal argument.
but, but but... they have more so they should pay more!

 

[preslove]

You mean the the fact that the Bush tax cuts turned a surplus into a huge deficit over the last 10 years? Or that we outsourced our jobs to China for short term profits? Or that we deregulated the banks and got what we always get when we deregulate the banks? An enormous crash? Or do you mean that we neglected our infrastructure for the 10 years of the Bush tax cuts?

America is like the penny pincher who won't spend a dime to fix his house. One day it comes crashing down.

We didn't overspend. We under taxed. The national debt would be only be half what it is if we didn't just cut taxes recklessly under Bush and the Republicans. And only a quarter of what it is if we didn't deregulate the markets and cause the Great Recession.

+ Iraq war.

A Republican bitching about the deficit is the height of cognitive dissonance.

 

[tatteredpotato]

Well I can't really give an opinion on if this is good or bad, but I find it refreshing to see a politician that seems to actually look at the pricetag before buying. (Or after buying and returning the item for a 10% restocking fee).

 

[SunnyD]

There aren't millions of equivalent jobs in NJ maybe?

And that's my point. Maybe there should be.

 

[bruceb]

They can build it over the river. But then you need a place at both ends for the terminals. Right now, it would likely connect to existing train stations at both ends.
Just adding another set of tracks to run on.

 

[techs]

We shouldn't build infrastructure when we have a surplus. We should cut taxes.
We shouldn't build infrastructure when we have a deficit. We should cut taxes.


Wow. A recipe for disaster.

 

[Aharami]

where do you propose that 10B come from? Esp when the state is 8B in the red and the gov is cutting funding left and right (rightfully so). If he approved this project with the ballooning budget, every single agency he cut funding from is going to come back and hound him. I agree that the state desperately needs the tunnel. Heck my wife takes one of them everyday to get to nyc. But this is not the right time, esp since the project is ballooning out of control.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

techs can't even grasp the concept of 'darwinism'.
are you going to expect him to understand numbers past 2 digits?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=287238&highlight=darwin

 

[preslove]

where do you propose that 10B come from?

Long term bonds.

Next question?

 

[Patranus]

You mean the the fact that the Bush tax cuts turned a surplus into a huge deficit over the last 10 years? Or that we outsourced our jobs to China for short term profits? Or that we deregulated the banks and got what we always get when we deregulate the banks? An enormous crash? Or do you mean that we neglected our infrastructure for the 10 years of the Bush tax cuts?

America is like the penny pincher who won't spend a dime to fix his house. One day it comes crashing down.

We didn't overspend. We under taxed. The national debt would be only be half what it is if we didn't just cut taxes recklessly under Bush and the Republicans. And only a quarter of what it is if we didn't deregulate the markets and cause the Great Recession.

First off, tax cuts do not cost the government money. The government isn't writing you a check, you are simply keeping more of YOUR money. You act as if the government is entitled to as much of your money as it wants and you should be thankful they let you keep pennies.

Secondly.

GWB Takes Office - National Debt 2001 - $5.6 Trillion
Democrats Take Control of Congress - National Debt 2007 - $8.6 Trillion
Barack Obama Takes Office - National Debt 2009 - $10.6 Trillion
Today - National Debt 2010 - $13.6 Trillion
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

With GOP control you have plus $3 trillion over 6 years or $500 billion per year.
With Democrat control you have plus $5 trillion over 3 years or $1.6 trillion per year.
$1.6 Trillion > $500 Billion

Note, the "BOOSH tax cuts" were passed in 2003. The GOP had control of government for 4 years and the national debt increased by 500 billion per year (on average) over that time. The Democrats controlled congress for 3 years with those tax cuts and increased the national debt by $1.6 trillion over that period of time.

Nice try though.

 

[Blackjack200]

And that's my point. Maybe there should be.

But does that really matter? I mean, what's reality here? New Jersey is not the financial capital of the world, it is not one of the 2 or 3 most important cities in the fashion industry, it is not one of the top tourist destinations in the world, and ultimately it would never be able to provide enough jobs for its residents. It is, essentially, a gian suburb of NYC.

This decision by Christie is insane, NYC is the lifeblood of NJ.

 

[SunnyD]

But does that really matter? I mean, what's reality here? New Jersey is not the financial capital of the world, it is not one of the 2 or 3 most important cities in the fashion industry, it is not one of the top tourist destinations in the world, and ultimately it would never be able to provide enough jobs for its residents. It is, essentially, a gian suburb of NYC.

This decision by Christie is insane, NYC is the lifeblood of NJ.

My comment goes really for the entire country. Yeah, I understand that this is an interconnected WORLD these days, but personally I think we've gone a little too far. Call it laziness or whatnot, but something is gonna have to give eventually. We're going to run out of countries to exploit, and once we do the only thing we'll have left is local economies. We need a concerted push right now to get back to Americanism and the home-town atmosphere that was prevalent not even 30 years ago.

 

[nageov3t]

But does that really matter? I mean, what's reality here? New Jersey is not the financial capital of the world, it is not one of the 2 or 3 most important cities in the fashion industry, it is not one of the top tourist destinations in the world, and ultimately it would never be able to provide enough jobs for its residents. It is, essentially, a gian suburb of NYC.

This decision by Christie is insane, NYC is the lifeblood of NJ.

as long as real estate in NYC makes NJ look like North Dakota, I don't think Jersey has much to worry about.

while an additional tunnel would be great, I highly doubt people are going to pack up and move to NYC over it.

 

[JTsyo]

How long does it take a ferry to cross the Hudson? Couldn't you set up a ferry that runs every hour between two rail terminals on either side of the Hudson as a stop gap for now?

 

[Blackjack200]

My comment goes really for the entire country. Yeah, I understand that this is an interconnected WORLD these days, but personally I think we've gone a little too far. Call it laziness or whatnot, but something is gonna have to give eventually. We're going to run out of countries to exploit, and once we do the only thing we'll have left is local economies. We need a concerted push right now to get back to Americanism and the home-town atmosphere that was prevalent not even 30 years ago.

I think there's a very good argument to be made for localizing things, I don't mean to attack that, but I do think that, tactically speaking, it's a very bad reason to make a decision like this.

 

[Blackjack200]

as long as real estate in NYC makes NJ look like North Dakota, I don't think Jersey has much to worry about.

while an additional tunnel would be great, I highly doubt people are going to pack up and move to NYC over it.

The effect might be subtle, but it will be real. A well compensated executive might be willing to live in Madison, NJ if there is a reasonably quick and comfortable link to Midtown, he might not be willing to deal a transit system stressed to the max with delays and packed cars.

I also agree with you though, I don't think you're going to see any kind of mass exodus.

How long does it take a ferry to cross the Hudson? Couldn't you set up a ferry that runs every hour between two rail terminals on either side of the Hudson as a stop gap for now?

They already have ferries; we're talking about huge volumes here. Also, the rail terminal is not at the edge of the island, it's in the middle and it sits directly on top of the subway terminal. People jump on a train in say, Summit, NJ, get into the station in 40 min., get directly onto the subway, and they're in the office 1 hour after they left their house. It's pretty amazing really.

 

[nageov3t]

How long does it take a ferry to cross the Hudson? Couldn't you set up a ferry that runs every hour between two rail terminals on either side of the Hudson as a stop gap for now?

commuter ferry running directly across is ~10 minutes.

but it's prohibitively expensive... when I worked for the ferry (and this was like 8 years ago) monthly passes for the cheapest route was $200/month and that doesn't include parking and you're sitting in bumper to bumper traffic driving to the ferry terminal.

it makes sense if you live on the waterfront, but for anyone commuting in from the burbs, it's just as easy to pack onto the already crowded trains.