Governor of New Jersey Blocks Hudson Tunnel Project

[techs]

Buh bye, New Jersey.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

link would be nice.

 

[Brainonska511]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyregion/08tunnel.html?hp

 

[Aharami]

while the tunnel would've helped immensely, i commend the man for taking a hard line when it's evident that there's not enough money to fund this project.

 

[Tim]

Buh bye, New Jersey.

Cool. Bye to you as well, NY. Take your shitty football teams with you.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We of Upstate NY will gladly fund this project if in return NJ accepts NYC as part of itself and we can lose it forever.

 

[PottedMeat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyregion/08tunnel.html?hp

so -
Port Authority - $3B
Federal Govt - $3B
NJ - $8B ?

why wouldn't NY/NJ split the cost?

 

[bruceb]

NJ and also NY can't afford $4B

 

[techs]

We of Upstate NY will gladly fund this project if in return NJ accepts NYC as part of itself and we can lose it forever.

Yeah, it pisses me off that all the NYC taxes are used to pay for the rest of the state.

 

[techs]

so -
Port Authority - $3B
Federal Govt - $3B
NJ - $8B ?

why wouldn't NY/NJ split the cost?

Over 90 percent of the riders are people commuting from New Jersey to work in New York city. In fact, NY is probably being asked to pay more than its fair share. Most of the New Yorker ridership goes to New Jersey on the weekends to shop. Basically the tunnel is an economic advantage for New Jersey.

So, the current one hundred year old tunnel will max out within 10 years.

New Jersey will lose revenue from taxes their residents pay on their fat New York salaries. New Yorkers won't shop in Jersey.
And, the thousands of construction jobs will be lost during rough economic times. Meaning more foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc. Plus New Jersey real estate values will fall as it becomes more difficult to commute to New York jobs.

All in all, a huge loss for New Jersey. All because the New Jersey governor wants to run for President and is willing to do it on the backs of the citizens of New Jersey.

Oh, btw. The supposed "reason" he is is doing this is because they need the money to repair their current roads and bridges. Of course, New Jersey has the 5th lowest gas tax in the country. And that's why they don't have the money to fix the bridges and the roads. But the Jersey governor doesn't want the tax to go up, even a couple of three cents a gallon which would pay for all the bridge and road repairs.

THIS is the problem with America. We used to have the best telecommunication and transportation systems in the world. Now our asses have been beaten in internet speed, and we are losing our transportation systems.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Over 90 percent of the riders are people commuting from New Jersey to work in New York city. In fact, NY is probably being asked to pay more than its fair share. Most of the New Yorker ridership goes to New Jersey on the weekends to shop. Basically the tunnel is an economic advantage for New Jersey.

So, the current one hundred year old tunnel will max out within 10 years.

New Jersey will lose revenue from taxes their residents pay on their fat New York salaries. New Yorkers won't shop in Jersey.
And, the thousands of construction jobs will be lost during rough economic times. Meaning more foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc. Plus New Jersey real estate values will fall as it becomes more difficult to commute to New York jobs.

All in all, a huge loss for New Jersey. All because the New Jersey governor wants to run for President and is willing to do it on the backs of the citizens of New Jersey.

Oh, btw. The supposed "reason" he is is doing this is because they need the money to repair their current roads and bridges. Of course, New Jersey has the 5th lowest gas tax in the country. And that's why they don't have the money to fix the bridges and the roads. But the Jersey governor doesn't want the tax to go up, even a couple of three cents a gallon which would pay for all the bridge and road repairs.

THIS is the problem with America. We used to have the best telecommunication and transportation systems in the world. Now our asses have been beaten in internet speed, and we are losing our transportation systems.

blah blah blah...
ask why we're in a deficit in the first place. because we overspent (govt worker salaries, stupid pet projects, etc.)

 

[techs]

blah blah blah...
ask why we're in a deficit in the first place. because we overspent (govt worker salaries, stupid pet projects, etc.)

You mean the the fact that the Bush tax cuts turned a surplus into a huge deficit over the last 10 years? Or that we outsourced our jobs to China for short term profits? Or that we deregulated the banks and got what we always get when we deregulate the banks? An enormous crash? Or do you mean that we neglected our infrastructure for the 10 years of the Bush tax cuts?

America is like the penny pincher who won't spend a dime to fix his house. One day it comes crashing down.

We didn't overspend. We under taxed. The national debt would be only be half what it is if we didn't just cut taxes recklessly under Bush and the Republicans. And only a quarter of what it is if we didn't deregulate the markets and cause the Great Recession.

 

[Ruptga]

Sounds like the guy has some balls AND some foresight. Granted this is just one case and he might really be a moron, but it sounds like the right call was made here. Contractors (or whoever) need to learn that the quoted price is the price; overruns of 50-100% are just insane.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Sounds like the guy has some balls AND some foresight. Granted this is just one case and he might really be a moron, but it sounds like the right call was made here. Contractors (or whoever) need to learn that the quoted price is the price; overruns of 50-100% are just insane.

Not having dug into it I wonder how much of this has to do with changes to compensate for estimated future costs. For example, there is a highway project near me that they are looking to start building in 10 years. The "cost" is given both in current dollars and estimated cost in 10 years. 10 years from now they could very easily have been way off (note that this isn't just inflation estimations but labor and materials as well). Add in regular changes to technology and regulations and it becomes extremely difficult to estimate costs even three years out.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

You mean the the fact that the Bush tax cuts turned a surplus into a huge deficit over the last 10 years? Or that we outsourced our jobs to China for short term profits? Or that we deregulated the banks and got what we always get when we deregulate the banks? An enormous crash? Or do you mean that we neglected our infrastructure for the 10 years of the Bush tax cuts?

America is like the penny pincher who won't spend a dime to fix his house. One day it comes crashing down.

We didn't overspend. We under taxed. The national debt would be only be half what it is if we didn't just cut taxes recklessly under Bush and the Republicans. And only a quarter of what it is if we didn't deregulate the markets and cause the Great Recession.

hahaha, undertaxed. live in NJ and then talk to me about undertaxed.

 

[Ruptga]

Not having dug into it I wonder how much of this has to do with changes to compensate for estimated future costs. For example, there is a highway project near me that they are looking to start building in 10 years. The "cost" is given both in current dollars and estimated cost in 10 years. 10 years from now they could very easily have been way off (note that this isn't just inflation estimations but labor and materials as well). Add in regular changes to technology and regulations and it becomes extremely difficult to estimate costs even three years out.

I won't argue that it's not, but if estimation is really that big of a problem perhaps they should spend more on analysts.

Now you've got me thinking, just how often do projects have overruns anyway? Everyone has heard of the Big Dig and their own local pet projects, but I wonder what the numbers look like.

The Wiki is enlightening

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Over 90 percent of the riders are people commuting from New Jersey to work in New York city. In fact, NY is probably being asked to pay more than its fair share. Most of the New Yorker ridership goes to New Jersey on the weekends to shop. Basically the tunnel is an economic advantage for New Jersey.

So, the current one hundred year old tunnel will max out within 10 years.

New Jersey will lose revenue from taxes their residents pay on their fat New York salaries. New Yorkers won't shop in Jersey.
And, the thousands of construction jobs will be lost during rough economic times. Meaning more foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc. Plus New Jersey real estate values will fall as it becomes more difficult to commute to New York jobs.

All in all, a huge loss for New Jersey. All because the New Jersey governor wants to run for President and is willing to do it on the backs of the citizens of New Jersey.

Oh, btw. The supposed "reason" he is is doing this is because they need the money to repair their current roads and bridges. Of course, New Jersey has the 5th lowest gas tax in the country. And that's why they don't have the money to fix the bridges and the roads. But the Jersey governor doesn't want the tax to go up, even a couple of three cents a gallon which would pay for all the bridge and road repairs.

THIS is the problem with America. We used to have the best telecommunication and transportation systems in the world. Now our asses have been beaten in internet speed, and we are losing our transportation systems.

We might have the 5th lowest gas taxes but we have some of the highest income and property taxes. The truth is we do need the new tunnel but we also can't afford it. Its shitty but thats the reality.

 

[SP33Demon]

Over 90 percent of the riders are people commuting from New Jersey to work in New York city. In fact, NY is probably being asked to pay more than its fair share. Most of the New Yorker ridership goes to New Jersey on the weekends to shop. Basically the tunnel is an economic advantage for New Jersey.

So, the current one hundred year old tunnel will max out within 10 years.

New Jersey will lose revenue from taxes their residents pay on their fat New York salaries. New Yorkers won't shop in Jersey.
And, the thousands of construction jobs will be lost during rough economic times. Meaning more foreclosures, bankruptcies, etc. Plus New Jersey real estate values will fall as it becomes more difficult to commute to New York jobs.

All in all, a huge loss for New Jersey. All because the New Jersey governor wants to run for President and is willing to do it on the backs of the citizens of New Jersey.

Oh, btw. The supposed "reason" he is is doing this is because they need the money to repair their current roads and bridges. Of course, New Jersey has the 5th lowest gas tax in the country. And that's why they don't have the money to fix the bridges and the roads. But the Jersey governor doesn't want the tax to go up, even a couple of three cents a gallon which would pay for all the bridge and road repairs.

THIS is the problem with America. We used to have the best telecommunication and transportation systems in the world. Now our asses have been beaten in internet speed, and we are losing our transportation systems.

Raise the gas tax? Do you know how much property taxes cost in NJ?

That being said, NJ has some of the best roads in the country so that is a bullsht excuse.

 

[Demo24]

Raise the gas tax? Do you know how much property taxes cost in NJ?

That being said, NJ has some of the best roads in the country so that is a bullsht excuse.

That's funny, considering studies disagree with you:

http://reason.org/news/show/1002875.html

http://www.rd.com/your-america-insp...ds-in-america-the-rankings/article176005.html


New Jersey not only has some of the worst roads in the nation, it has some of the deadliest. Judging from my visit several years ago, the conditions were poor, and the system appears to have been designed by a 5yr old with crayons. Never seen such stupid designs before.

 

[SP33Demon]

That's funny, considering studies disagree with you:

http://reason.org/news/show/1002875.html

http://www.rd.com/your-america-insp...ds-in-america-the-rankings/article176005.html


New Jersey not only has some of the worst roads in the nation, it has some of the deadliest. Judging from my visit several years ago, the conditions were poor, and the system appears to have been designed by a 5yr old with crayons. Never seen such stupid designs before.

New Jersey also has some of the safest. The GSP is ranks as one of the best:

The Garden State Parkway, or simply "the Parkway," carries more in-state traffic [than the Turnpike] and runs from the town of Montvale along New Jersey's northern border to its southernmost tip at Cape May for 172.4 miles (277.5 km). It is the trunk that connects the New York metropolitan area to Atlantic City and it is consistently one of the safest roads in the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey#Roadways

In addition to being one of the safest, it's actually the busiest toll road in the country:

The Parkway has been ranked as the busiest toll highway in the country based on the number of toll transactions.[2][3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_State_Parkway

NJ's other two main toll roads are the Turnpike and AC Expressway. Both are also well maintained, so where is the problem coming from? Here is a clue:

New Jersey has 38,131 miles of roads managed by state, county, and municipal governments and toll road authorities.[7] The major roadways fall under the jurisdiction of the New Jersey Department of Transportation (NJDOT), which operates the state highway system. Combined, State highways and toll roads consist of 7% of road mileage, but account for 66% of traffic volume. In contrast, county and municipal roads consist of 93% of road mileage and 34% of traffic volume.[7]

County and municipal roads are taking on 1/3 of the volume but bringing the state down in safety ratings. The main arteries in NJ are phenomenal.

Some other things to think about:
Your study is actually outdated:

Over the last two years New Jersey has moved up from last to 45th in the overall rankings, but still spends dramatically more than every other state. New Jersey spends $1.1 million per mile on state roads.

http://reason.org/news/show/19th-annual-highway-report

Considering NJ has the highest population density and the busiest (and one of the safest) toll road in the country; it's not surprising that so much is spent on state roads considering they are almost always in very good to great condition. However, the same cannot be said for county/municipal roads. The reason why NJ ranks low is because of: a) total money spent on state roads and b) poor county/muni roads. 66% of the traffic in NJ is driving on a phenomenal State road as they should regarding the amount of money dished out by taxpayers/tolls.

But back to my main point that the governor is full of crap. NJ's state roads are fine and do not need more funding... if there is a bad apple (state, county, or muni), then put up a fcking toll and make the people that actually use it pay for it (novel idea I know). All 3 toll roads in NJ are phenomenal and don't need to be funded outside of toll money. This is why Tech's idea of raising the gasoline tax to pay for roads is just shortsighted and naivety at its finest and would never happen. However, the governor must think we're morons if he's going to play the "woe are the roads and bridges" card after already spending the most in the country on them.

New Jersey Transit already committed a huge chunk of change (3 bil) of surplus toll money to this train project and if NJDOT is going to ask for fcking 2.5 more (30%) then that's ridiculous. I don't blame Christie for suspending the project, it's really not his fault. But saying he is going to use the additional money for roads is lame, NJ Transit is already in the black off tolls (although repaying a lot of debt). Like I said, just add more tolls as needed just like MTA:

Bridges and Tunnels at a Glance*
Seven bridges and two tunnels in New York City;
toll revenues help subsidize mass transit.
2010 operating budget
$444.7 million
Support to mass transit
$741.7 million
Average weekday vehicles
824,000
Bridges
7
Tunnels
2
Employees
1,816
* Operating budget data as of February 24, 2010;
support to mass transit and other statistical data as of December 31, 2009

http://www.mta.info/mta/network.htm

 

[techs]

New Jersey has some of the highest tax rates in the country? Well, New Jersey has some of the highest salaries in the country.

What does a Nobel Prize for Economics winner say about the tunnnel?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/opinion/08krugman.html?_r=1&hp

The Erie Canal. Hoover Dam. The Interstate Highway System. Visionary public projects are part of the American tradition, and have been a major driver of our economic development.

But American politics these days is anything but rational. Republicans bitterly opposed even the modest infrastructure spending contained in the Obama stimulus plan. And, on Thursday, Chris Christie, the governor of New Jersey, canceled America’s most important current public works project, the long-planned and much-needed second rail tunnel under the Hudson River.

It was a destructive and incredibly foolish decision on multiple levels. But it shouldn’t have been all that surprising. We are no longer the nation that used to amaze the world with its visionary projects. We have become, instead, a nation whose politicians seem to compete over who can show the least vision, the least concern about the future and the greatest willingness to pander to short-term, narrow-minded selfishness.

So, about that tunnel: with almost 1,200 people per square mile, New Jersey is the most densely populated state in America, more densely populated than any major European nation. Add in the fact that many residents work in New York, and you have a state that can’t function without adequate public transportation. There just isn’t enough space for everyone to drive to work.

But right now there’s just one century-old rail tunnel linking New Jersey and New York — and it’s running close to capacity. The need for another tunnel couldn’t be more obvious.

So last year the project began. Of the $8.7 billion in planned funding, less than a third was to come from the State of New Jersey; the rest would come, in roughly equal amounts, from the independent Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and from the federal government. Even if costs were to rise substantially, as they often do on big projects, it was a very good deal for the state.

But Mr. Christie killed it anyway.

News reports suggest that his immediate goal was to shift funds to local road projects and existing rail repairs. There were, however, much better ways to raise those funds, such as an increase in the state’s relatively low gasoline taxes — and bear in mind that whatever motorists gain from low gas taxes will be at least partly undone by pain from the canceled project in the form of growing congestion and traffic delays. But, no, in modern America, no tax increase can ever be justified, for any reason.

So this was a terrible, shortsighted move from New Jersey’s point of view. But that’s not the whole cost. Canceling the tunnel was also a blow to national hopes of recovery, part of a pattern of penny-pinching that has played a large role in our continuing economic stagnation.

 

[sourceninja]

"New Jersey spends $1.1 million per mile on state roads."

There's you problem right there...

 

[lupi]

Can we get more bold font in this thread.



And if cost overruns aren't likely to be that high, why won't the contractors agree to a fixed price contract.

 

[Demo24]

Sniphttp://www.mta.info/mta/network.htm

Those are toll roads, in theory only the money earned from them is spent on the roads themselves. If that is actually true then yeah I imagine a crap ton of money is spent on those actual roads. Considering the high volume it likely inflates that 1.1 million figure. Outliers here.

Also that second study I produced raised NJ from last to 45th.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

hahaha, undertaxed. live in NJ and then talk to me about undertaxed.

he was talking federal not local. prop taxes in NJ are CRAZY!!!!!!